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Heater - 3 phase vs 1 phase

Jude20VT

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Jan 1, 2009
Messages
48
I recently got a great deal on this heater from a neighbor:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/3UF89

The specs say it is a phase 3. Inside the panel someone wrote below the schematics, "Center log grounded - phase 30". There are 6 coils and 2 are disconnected. I don't know what any of this means???

Is there a way to wire this 3 phase unit to a residential 1 phase system without buying a converter? or should I cut my loses now and attempt to resell to someone with a commercial set-up?
 
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rockwithjason

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Jan 8, 2006
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Las Vegas
well you probably can rewire it for single phase but it may be very confusing for a beginner. I am assuming that it's 208v 3ph. if that is the case then the coils were most likely wired in the star configuration. basically that means that across any two coils you would have 208v. you will have to come up with a way for 2 coils to be in series with each other to obtain the 208v needed. you will also need heavier wire for the feed and a bigger breaker. this will take some persistence and patience. if you can post a pic of the coil set up and any name plate info then maybe we can figure it out.
 

rakesdl

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Sep 10, 2008
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Location
Radford Virginia
Yes it can be done, I changed one over last year for my garage. It will require a much larger wire to carry the load. Mine was a 15KW and I used #4 wire to run it, with a 80 amp breaker. It had three coils and I disconnected one leaving two, that worked out to be about 10KW of heat.

One thing you should know is that in my case I had to wire a thermostat up to control the unit, but did not put an in-line thermostat in. This caused the power to remain on at the heater all the time. I only ran the heater when I was in the garage working, (very little) but since the power was traveling to the heater all the time I had an electric bill of about $400.00 :shocking:the first month it was installed. Since then I have cut it off at the breaker and only cut it back on when needed. Good luck
 
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Jude20VT

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Jan 1, 2009
Messages
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I had to wire a thermostat up to control the unit, but did not put an in-line thermostat in. This caused the power to remain on at the heater all the time. I had an electric bill of about $400.00 the first month it was installed. Since then I have cut it off at the breaker and only cut it back on when needed.

Nice tip! Mine requires a separate thermostat too. Any thoughts besides flipping the breaker.
 
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Jude20VT

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Messages
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well you probably can rewire it for single phase but it may be very confusing for a beginner. if you can post a pic of the coil set up and any name plate info then maybe we can figure it out.

I am guessing it is already wired for phase 1?
Factory element wiring:
1=A&C, 2=A&B, 3=C&B, 4=C&A, 5=A&B, 6=C&B
Rewired elements:
1/3/5/6=A&C, 2/4=Disconnected

I am going to have an electrician wire the 220, but posted here to get an opinion before he came over to look at the situation. I only paid $30 for this unit and it was in great condition before I painted it to match my garage cabinets.

Here are the requested pics:
IMG_1142.jpg

IMG_1141.jpg

IMG_1137.jpg

IMG_1140.jpg

IMG_1136.jpg
 
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Jude20VT

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
48
well you probably can rewire it for single phase but it may be very confusing for a beginner. if you can post a pic of the coil set up and any name plate info then maybe we can figure it out.

I am guessing it is already wired for phase 1?
Factory element wiring:
1=A&C, 2=A&B, 3=C&B, 4=C&A, 5=A&B, 6=C&B
Rewired elements:
1/3/5/6=A&C, 2/4=Disconnected

I am going to have an electrician wire the 220, but posted here to get an opinion before he came over to look at the situation. I only paid $30 for this unit and it was in great condition before I painted it to match my garage cabinets.

Here are the requested pics:
IMG_1142.jpg

IMG_1141.jpg

IMG_1137.jpg

IMG_1140.jpg

IMG_1136.jpg
 

rakesdl

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Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
156
Location
Radford Virginia
Nice tip! Mine requires a separate thermostat too. Any thoughts besides flipping the breaker.

I could have gone with a disconnect box near the heater, but it still would not control the temperature in the garage (just a cut off) I don't do that much work in the winter so it is not bad to trip the breaker when i need to.
 
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BillK

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Aug 24, 2006
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Location
Beautiful Southern Maryland
Jude,
The main problem that I see is that the fan motor is probably a 3 phase motor. If so, you will either have to change the motor or use a phase converter. There might be an exception, but I have never seen a 3 phase motor that can be "converted" to single phase. Most of my equipment is 3 phase so I am pretty familiar with it.
 

Dragster Racer

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Joined
Feb 9, 2008
Messages
1,891
Location
Morrison, IL
Yes it can be done, I changed one over last year for my garage. It will require a much larger wire to carry the load. Mine was a 15KW and I used #4 wire to run it, with a 80 amp breaker. It had three coils and I disconnected one leaving two, that worked out to be about 10KW of heat.

One thing you should know is that in my case I had to wire a thermostat up to control the unit, but did not put an in-line thermostat in. This caused the power to remain on at the heater all the time. I only ran the heater when I was in the garage working, (very little) but since the power was traveling to the heater all the time I had an electric bill of about $400.00 :shocking:the first month it was installed. Since then I have cut it off at the breaker and only cut it back on when needed. Good luck

Gaa! Are you saying that the element was on all the time, and that the fan only controled the blower? I'm just being dumb here, but wouldn't that be an overheating hazzard for the unit. If the element wasn't on, what was consuming the power?
 

Mr_fixit

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Joined
May 24, 2008
Messages
1,221
Location
Rustylvania
I've never seen one with a 3 phase blower motor. They're usually a single phase blower motor!. It sounds like it's already converted to run on 220v. Talk to the neighbor..

It's pretty simple to convert a 3 phase to 220 volt single phase. If there's coils not connected it sounds like someone already did. Find an electrician friend and let him look at it.
 

rockwithjason

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Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
2,633
Location
Las Vegas
the thermostat just hooks to the coil leads on the contactor, it's very simple. the blower motor is just out of sight on the diagram but by what i can see it's a single phase unit which is typical for a blower motor. i think that it will work out fine for you.
 

rakesdl

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Joined
Sep 10, 2008
Messages
156
Location
Radford Virginia
Gaa! Are you saying that the element was on all the time, and that the fan only controled the blower? I'm just being dumb here, but wouldn't that be an overheating hazzard for the unit. If the element wasn't on, what was consuming the power?

Just like leaving a light on or computer on, it pulls power. The elements were not on, but the thermostat only denied the power to go to the elements. I blame it on this since it was the only change I made that month? Maybe someone else could give another explanation.:headscrat
 

14binders

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Jun 3, 2009
Messages
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Location
Seattle, WA.
Just like leaving a light on or computer on, it pulls power. The elements were not on, but the thermostat only denied the power to go to the elements. I blame it on this since it was the only change I made that month? Maybe someone else could give another explanation.:headscrat

Rakesdl- I have a degree in electrical engineering specializing in power systems, as well as 15 years experience wiring houses, cars, etc.

So if the elements weren't on, then were did it go? In physics, matter (energy) can neither be created nor destroyed. It has to have gone somewhere.

There is no difference between cutting power at a panel breaker, equipment disconnect, or electrically controlled contactor (relay) inside the unit. If no work is being done, no power is being consumed. Unless of course, something is miswired in the unit and something capable of consuming a significant amount of amps is still running. If the heater even had a separate 1kw element that was stuck on 24/7 somehow, it would only cost you $72/mo ($0.10/kWh). I would guess that any more than about 1kw and you would notice the paint burning off it since the fan wasn't running. The 10 KW heater, running for 2 hours straight, 20 days a month at $0.10/kWh, would only cost you $40/mo.

When a light is on, it's on. When it's off, it's off. Period. Leaving a light on is the same as leaving a heater on. You know it because its obviously doing something. A computer can be "sleeping" with the hard-drive spinning while the screen appears black using nearly the power it consumes while you are typing on it (300 watts?), or hibernating with the ram memory still powered (20 watts? I don't really know).

Without knowing how much you used the heater, your electric rate, indoor and outdoor temperatures, and the size, effective insulation levels and air leakage of your garage, it's hard to guess how much power you should really use, and what happened to your power bill. But can assure you with great confidence that your heater could not consume more than $1 to $2 worth of power in month when it's not running (this would be from a 24v thermostat and/or some electronic controls). These are the same type of parasitic or "ghost loads" you hear about from your Utility Co.- your TV, DVD, Laptop charger, Phone chargers, electric toothbrush charger, Printer power supply, Microwave clock, etc.

If this speculation were true, everything in your house would be consuming hundreds of dollars worth of power each month. An electric range is capable of pulling ~8kw, and it, along with your water heater and dryer by your definition are "hot" 24/7- meaning there is power available all the way up to the relay just a few inches from the heating element. When a control relay opens, no current can flow, no energy is used. period. (again, except for this caveat of a few watts for the electronics). This would be the same for the hair dryer, toaster, hot tub, microwave, clothes iron....

sorry about the huge longwinded post. no one will probably read this far.

So your power bill immediately went back to normal ($???) once you started flipping the breaker?

respectfully,
 
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