Heater is Installed

[Steve Szakats]

Well, I finally got the garage heater installed...just in time for spring.

Its a Mr Heater that I hung with four threaded rods. The unit is nice and quiet in the garage but it is generating quite a bit of noise and vibration in the bedroom above.

Has anybody run into this and figured out a way to minimize the noise transmitted through the rafters?

Thanks

 

[beetroot72]

Well, I finally got the garage heater installed...just in time for spring.

Its a Mr Heater that I hung with four threaded rods. The unit is nice and quiet in the garage but it is generating quite a bit of noise and vibration in the bedroom above.

Has anybody run into this and figured out a way to minimize the noise transmitted through the rafters?

Thanks

I don't know about MR heater but modine "Hot dog" offers a dampening kit...which I assume is just some rubber bushings.

Lets see some pics.

 

[Steve Szakats]

Hey beetroot, can you point me in the direction of that Modine kit? I can't find it anywhere. Thanks

 

[russlaferrera]

How good is the fan balance and blades?

 

[beetroot72]

Hey beetroot, can you point me in the direction of that Modine kit? I can't find it anywhere. Thanks

I had Modine send me some parts for my heater once. The parts were checked off on a standard options sheet that was included in my shipment. On that "option sheet" I saw the dampening/vibration kit. I don't think I have that sheet but here is some contact info for Modine. I found them to have the best customer service that I have ever had to deal with. I'm sure if you call them directly or use thier web inquiry they'll take care of you. I'll dig a little for that sheet this weekend, I just might have "filed" it. Also, I'll shoot an email to a rep I deal with over there. Let me know how it works out.

Modine Manufacturing Company
Commercial HVAC&R Division
Jamie Tuinstra
Technical Service/Quality specialist
1500 DeKoven Avenue
Racine, Wisconsin 53403-2552
Tel. 800-828-4328
Fax 262-636-1665
www.modine.com



Happy friday!

 

[beetroot72]

Hey beetroot, can you point me in the direction of that Modine kit? I can't find it anywhere. Thanks

My contact at Modine already got back to me...Here is what he said.

Vibration Isolation Kit must be purchased through a Modine rep or wholesaler Item Code 36987 $157 List They can contact our wholesaler in Chicago at 773-774-8616 their name is Heinlein Supply.


And I also found it here..
http://www.thermodepot.com/product_info.php/products_id/17?osCsid=686163e97bd11cfd5469ee64cb727c4a

 

[Scott]

http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=1314

Do some searching on McMaster, they have all kinds of vibe isolation stuff.

 

[Scott]

Here you go:
Vibration-Damping Hangers
http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=1450

Look pretty close to the Modine stuff to me at half the price.

 

[burger]

One of the heaters in the R&D shop at work is hung with these from the McMaster-Carr catalog. It uses the number 2 style isolators at the ends of the threaded rods.

 

[Steve Szakats]

Thanks for the info guys. I ordered the dampers from Mc-Masters'. They look identical to the ThermoDepot kit and cost $10 each. I wonder why the Kit cost $160???? $40 versus $160, what am I missing?

Thanks again!

 

[beetroot72]

Thanks for the info guys. I ordered the dampers from Mc-Masters'. They look identical to the ThermoDepot kit and cost $10 each. I wonder why the Kit cost $160???? $40 versus $160, what am I missing?

Thanks again!

Most likely are the same. But the kit is "product Specific" Which is to make you believe your getting something special. Let us know how it turns out!

 

[Steve Szakats]

BTW, what a great website McMasters is. Wish I knew about them years ago. They've got everthing you can never find at HD.

 

[Scott]

McMaster is one of the best companies I have ever dealt with. I use them at work on a weekly basis, usually ground shipping only takes a day or two as well (LA to Seattle for me, but they have several warehouses around the country).

Sometimes their prices are bit higher than others, but the awesome website and quick shipping make them worth using.

 

[Steve Szakats]

McMaster is one of the best companies I have ever dealt with. I use them at work on a weekly basis, usually ground shipping only takes a day or two as well (LA to Seattle for me, but they have several warehouses around the country).

Sometimes their prices are bit higher than others, but the awesome website and quick shipping make them worth using.

No kidding. The dampers arrived today! Take a look. They appear to be perfect replicas of the Modine kit for $10 a pop. I actually bought 8 instead of 4...I am thinking about putting one at the top of the 3' rod and one at the bottom close to the heater. What do you guys think? Overkill? The more the better? Or will they end up cancelling each other out? Should I just use 4? Any vibration engineers out there with an opinion?

I plan to install 4 or 8 of them this weekend...I'll post pictures after.

Steve

 

[Scott]

I have done some vibe measurements before, but purely as any afterthought, not any system design. As far as I know, more is usually better. But in some cases it may amplify the vibrations depending on the frequency.

Hopefully a vibrations guy can chime in.

 

[Scott]

No kidding. The dampers arrived today!

Steve

McMaster scares me sometimes. I have ordered at 4pm in the afternoon and had the parts on my desk by 9am the next day, ground shipping. I think they have some sort of a deal with UPS/Fedex for bulk overnight shipping I think.

 

[Steve Szakats]

I have done some vibe measurements before, but purely as any afterthought, not any system design. As far as I know, more is usually better. But in some cases it may amplify the vibrations depending on the frequency.

Hopefully a vibrations guy can chime in.

Yes, I hope I can get some solid recommendations before I try to install all 8 only to find out 4 would have been better. The heater is hard-piped to the gas line so I don't want to alter its position much...or replace threaded rod that is now cut too short...or...

4 or 8 dampers?

 

[beetroot72]

My un-edgemacated vote goes for 8!

 

[Steve in Mi]

The heater is hard-piped to the gas line

You may want to install a short flex gas line as the fixed piping can carry vibration back thru to the first rigid gas line mounting.

 

[Willy Victor]

Thanks for the info guys. I ordered the dampers from Mc-Masters'. They look identical to the ThermoDepot kit and cost $10 each. I wonder why the Kit cost $160???? $40 versus $160, what am I missing?

Thanks again!

Your going to be missinh $120

Willy

 

[Steve Szakats]

Ok, I installed 4 of the 8 dampers this weekend (the top ones). I was kind of hoping this would suffice, but although the vibration improved in the bedrrom upstairs, it is still unacceptably loud. I have attached a few shots of the installation. I think I will install the bottom 4 dampers this week. The only reason I didn't was I was concerned that the entire "hanging from rods with lots of rubber" scenario would become too flimsy. I am now convinced it will be stable enough. I am however worried that even 8 dampers will not suffice. Maybe I'll have to remember to shut the heater off completely when guests are sleeping over???

 

[Scott]

Make sure you don't tighten down the nuts on the rods too much. But...I can't really see if you have nuts on the top and bottom.

 

[Steve Szakats]

Make sure you don't tighten down the nuts on the rods too much. But...I can't really see if you have nuts on the top and bottom.

There are nuts on the bottom as well but they are only finger tight. From the shape of the rubber insert, it looked like a washer and nut were called for.

 

[kenfath]

Use a "listening rod" such as a wood broom or mop stick and listen to the sounds produced at the furnace motors, furnace cabinet, tops and bottoms of the threaded rods, at the vibratrion dampeners, at the ceiling mounted attachment bar and at the drywall adjacent to the mounting bar. The motors should have a light humm or purring sound. Is the sound louder at the top of the rods or the bottom? IF it is louder at the top then the length of the rods may be amplifying the vibrations. Try dampening the rods. With someone's assistance have that person hold the rods with their hands. Was the sound level at the top of the rods reduced? If no friends are available attach a Vise-Grip locking plier to all the rods (if you have enough Vice-Grips that-is) or some other kind of weight. What does that do to the sound level? Hopefully it reduces it. IF this does work you could add mass, such as nuts and washers on the rods, or tie (interconnect) the rods to one another in order to dampen the vibrations being transmitted thru them.

The remaining suggestion I offer is to consider some kind of dampener or vibration absorber between the ceiling and the mounting bar. Rubber reinforced washers used where it bolts to the ceiling, or perhaps a strip of belting or similar material 'should' reduce the transmitted vibration. Good luck! Keep us posted.

 

[Steve in Mi]

You are going to have to deal with the rigid gas line piping I already mentioned - in a gentle tone. Until you do any vibration of the heater will be transmitted back to the structure thru this piping. It can also be transmitted thru rigid conduit so where conduit has been used a short section of flex conduit is installed in the run usually at the heater. Both of these measures are generally accepted practices when isolation/dampening mounts are used. Maybe part of the $160.00 package, I don't know, but I've seen several installations and these items were present.

Quote:
The heater is hard-piped to the gas line

You may want to install a short flex gas line as the fixed piping can carry vibration back thru to the first rigid gas line mounting.

 

[Steve Szakats]

You are going to have to deal with the rigid gas line piping I already mentioned - in a gentle tone. Until you do any vibration of the heater will be transmitted back to the structure thru this piping. It can also be transmitted thru rigid conduit so where conduit has been used a short section of flex conduit is installed in the run usually at the heater. Both of these measures are generally accepted practices when isolation/dampening mounts are used. Maybe part of the $160.00 package, I don't know, but I've seen several installations and these items were present.

Steve, I appreciate your feedback and feel that you are correct that vibrations will continue to be transmitted to the rods as long as I am hard-piped to the gas line. The gas line is the only part of the installation that I farmed out...I don't do gas lines. I took a look at the line last night and am not sure what parts I would need to undo the hard line and insert a short flex line. Do they make 6" or 12" flex lines? Is a flex line something that a consumer like me can cut-to-length? Are we talking about a line such as is used to hook up a dryer or stove? Aren't these lines usually 2-3 feet long? Can I coil the slack if this is the case?

Thanks, and sorry about bombarding the board with stupid questions.

 

[Steve in Mi]

Are we talking about a line such as is used to hook up a dryer or stove? Aren't these lines usually 2-3 feet long? Can I coil the slack if this is the case?

In order; Yes, available in 12" length also, Yes.

If you post a picture of your gas line hookup I or others can point out where to install and parts to change. If you can change a spark plug you can do this job. The final step is to leak check with soapy water solution and NO IGNITION SOURCES PRESENT to look for bubbles which indicates a gas leak. Retighten and retest.

 

[Steve Szakats]

In order; Yes, available in 12" length also, Yes.

If you post a picture of your gas line hookup I or others can point out where to install and parts to change. If you can change a spark plug you can do this job. The final step is to leak check with soapy water solution and NO IGNITION SOURCES PRESENT to look for bubbles which indicates a gas leak. Retighten and retest.

Ok, here the pix are. Let me know what you think. I am thinking I should install a flex from the shutoff valve to...?

Thanks, Steve

 

[rickairmedic]

Steve you want your flex line between the T just outside of the unit and the union further up the line . Actually with the flex line you could do away with everything from the T to the union as the union wouldnt be needed with the flex line . I have added some lines to your pic where the flex would go .


Rick

 

[Steve Szakats]

How do I undo the pipe? Should I start at the union? How does one remove/undo the union? There seems to be 3 places to wrench it. Do I hold the center nut and then loosen the other 2?

 

[Junkman]

Turn off the gas, and then holding the nut that is closest to the pipe, loosen the center nut until it separates the two halves. Then holding the pipe with a pipe wrench, remove each half of the union. The advantage of the flex coupling pipe is that it will absorb any vibrations and not transmit them to the rest of the structure. If the vibrations are being transfered to the framing through the hanger rods, then that will take more effort to resolve. You might have to put vibration absorption material under the pieces that cross the joists that the rods hang from to create a vibration free unit.

 

[oldgoat]

For what it is worth the make flex lines that if you have a major break it will shut the gas off, or at least that is the way I understand it. It won't do anything for a minor leak though. I got one for my gas range at Lowe's. You buy them according to the unit btu size.

 

[Steve Szakats]

Well, I finished all my vibration mitigation work a few weeks ago...it seems to be much better with all 8 vibration dampers installed. I also installed a small piece of flex-gas line to minimize vibrations to the bedrooms above. All this worked well...I mean it still makes moise in the bedrooms but it is surely minimized. Anyway, the unit has been working flawlessly for weeks...

Today I moved the thermostat closer to the entry into my house so that one could easily shut the heater off in the event it bothers someone in the guest bedroom above.

i extended the copper wiring, re-installed the thermostat and now nothing is working anymore...I am livid. Its supposed to be 20 degress in NJ tomorrow and now my garage heater is not working at all anymore.

When I initially turned everthing on after extending the thermostat to its new location, I got a "click" when I turned the heat up, but the unit never came on...when I turned the thermostat back down, it clicked again. Now...nothing, nothing, nothing. The green LED on the motherboard is off and nothing is working. What TF is going on??? I have power at the heater...checked it with a meter.

Can anyone help? I need the heat back on before the Giants game tomorrow...Heeeeelppppp!!!!

 

[CharlieBrown]

thermocouple?

 

[Franz©]

Did you screw with the 120 volt wiring, or just extend the thermostat wiring?

Guest room above, sure seems to me it would have been a lot easier to tell any freeloader complainers the bed is equipped with a Magic Fingers ******** you got from Tony Soprano.

 

[rickairmedic]

Steve did you power down the 120 beffore extending the stat wires if not you may have shorted the stat wires while extending them first check the main board on the unit and see if there is a small blade type fuse or any other fuse on it you may have just popped a fuse if one is present turn the 120 off to the unit remove the fuse and check it if its bad replace it ( alot of newer furnaces come with 3 amp fuses I always go back with 5 amp fuses ) once the fuse is replaced power the unit back up . The second possible problem is you now have air in the gas line and need to cycle the unit several times by turning it on and off until it lights. Try these options and let us know what happens.


Rick

 

[Steve Szakats]

Steve did you power down the 120 beffore extending the stat wires if not you may have shorted the stat wires while extending them first check the main board on the unit and see if there is a small blade type fuse or any other fuse on it you may have just popped a fuse if one is present turn the 120 off to the unit remove the fuse and check it if its bad replace it ( alot of newer furnaces come with 3 amp fuses I always go back with 5 amp fuses ) once the fuse is replaced power the unit back up . The second possible problem is you now have air in the gas line and need to cycle the unit several times by turning it on and off until it lights. Try these options and let us know what happens.


Rick

I am pretty sure the power was off when I extended the thermostat. I did not change or touch the 120 service to the unit. I don't think its a gas problem because nothing comes on...no fan or anything...its not a matter of it running but not firing. A fuse would make a lot of sense but from the documentation I read last night it does not mention a fuse anywhere. Is anyone out there familiar with a fuse on a Mr Heater?

 

[Steve Szakats]

Never mind...I found the problem. Some components are cooked on the circuit card close to where the 24v leads from the transformer attach to the board. The question now is did the transformer fry the card? I guess I'll replace both to be on the safe side. It will be interesting to see how smoothly Mr. Heater will honor the warranty.

 

[rickairmedic]

Steve if there isnt a small blade style fuse on the circuit board in the 24 volt portion add one inline when you make the repair you can get inline fuse holders at wally world or most any auto parts supplier . This will keep the board from frying again hopefully as there are no absolutes at least with the 5 amp fuse inline it should protect the board .The fuse should be between the board and the transformer .

Rick

 

[Steve Szakats]

Sorry I haven't posted any updates in a while, been travelling like crazy. Anyway, I got my replacement circuit board and transformer and the heater is back online. No charge for the parts.

And guess what RickAirMedic....the replacement circuit board now features an inline fuse in the wire between the transformer and the circuit board. I guess the factory realized how dumb it was not to provide this protection.