heating a metal shop

[hvychve]

I am new at this sight, so far I think it rocks, I have seen some pretty tricked out shops/garages, got some real neat ideas and really enjoy seeing such a sight like this here, its amazing what some tackle and jobs performed.

I am an auto technician, nearly 30 years, worked in some of the best shops in southern california, arizona, colorado and nebraska, and now back in southern california, in Oak Hills , High desert area, I bought a place when the market prices were low, I feel bad for those who lost there houses due to taking out equity and losing due to arm (adjustable rate mortgages) anyway, I feel blessed on my purchase, its sittin on 2.5 acres , fully fenced , house is very nice ranch style, well taken care of , but the real bonus is the shop, its a 40'X60', has seperate office and seperate room I installed toilet and sink, plumbing was there but now hardware, the shop had two , two post car lifts, but since my first visit to move in , the hoists were removed and all the electrical, including conduit and lighting had been gutted from shop, I was still happy to have gotten , and installed hoist and all lighting, three rows the length of shop, one row with t-8's other two rows four ,four foot t-12's , I also installed a barrel stove kit, thinking I could heat up the place, knowing its cold in winter outside here in high desert, and that its a metal building, but its frosty cold , even with the stove blazen with wood, tried running a fan to blow off the stove and to circulate the heat around, but still cold cold cold,
I was on ladder the other day and behind my roll up door there is a gap the length of the door and about four inches wide, I would only assume the other door is this way too, I just hadnt got my talller ladder out to see, this door is taller, I cant image why they would build this building and leave such gaps for air and heat to enter and exit? do they make a block , rubber or something that might have been forgotten to be installled, in this gap??? I also need to make note its a sunward building, I looked up them online and they seem to be a reputable company and stand behind there product, also I would like to make note, that this shop has NO insulation at all, only the office and bathroom.
I thought about running a big propane tank out back and running commercial heaters , but I know I need to fix the gaps in and above the doors first, does anyone have a metal building that isnt insulated that they can get warm in cold climates? if so , what are you doing , I really would like to avoid running electrical heaters and gas if I can help it , but dang it , I got this shop and want to use it, especially when its cold outside, I plan on spending more time in shop in winter than summer , due to fact its cold out and not much else to do , as far as yard work and such, just hunting for heat, or would even settle for warmer conditions, any tricks or help .....???

 

[Charles (in GA)]

but the real bonus is the shop, its a 40'X60', has seperate office and seperate room I installed toilet and sink, plumbing was there but now hardware,

Not sure what you are trying to say, do you mean it was plumbed but no fixtures were ever installed, then you installed and finished?

the shop had two , two post car lifts, but since my first visit to move in , the hoists were removed and all the electrical, including conduit and lighting had been gutted from shop,

Did you contract for it with this equipment in place? Lights and electricity are normally part of the building and should not be removed. Did the Previous owner remove it, or thieves?

I also installed a barrel stove kit, thinking I could heat up the place, knowing its cold in winter outside here in high desert, and that its a metal building, but its frosty cold , even with the stove blazen with wood, tried running a fan to blow off the stove and to circulate the heat around, but still cold cold cold,

Its an all metal building with no insulation, barrel stove won't do much, nothing else will either.

I was on ladder the other day and behind my roll up door there is a gap the length of the door and about four inches wide, I would only assume the other door is this way too, I just hadnt got my talller ladder out to see, this door is taller, I cant image why they would build this building and leave such gaps for air and heat to enter and exit? do they make a block , rubber or something that might have been forgotten to be installled, in this gap??? I also need to make note its a sunward building, I looked up them online and they seem to be a reputable company and stand behind there product, also I would like to make note, that this shop has NO insulation at all, only the office and bathroom.

You will have to insulate. The steel just ***** the heat out. Even a thin layer of insulation will make a huge difference. Looked at the Sunward web site, looks like a regular red iron building.

The gap above a roll up door is normal. Due to the roll increasing in size as you roll up, and decreasing in size as you roll down, you cannot eliminate it, except to install a door higher than the door opening, then the gap will be small and constant as the door slides by the header in the track.

See my discussion on what I did to fix this and what others suggest,

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83652

I thought about running a big propane tank out back and running commercial heaters , but I know I need to fix the gaps in and above the doors first, does anyone have a metal building that isnt insulated that they can get warm in cold climates? if so , what are you doing , I really would like to avoid running electrical heaters and gas if I can help it , but dang it , I got this shop and want to use it, especially when its cold outside, I plan on spending more time in shop in winter than summer , due to fact its cold out and not much else to do , as far as yard work and such, just hunting for heat, or would even settle for warmer conditions, any tricks or help .....???

You will not have much luck getting any un-insulated metal building heated to a comfortable level, unless you burn up lots of fuel to do it.

HOW TALL is the building. Eave height, peak height. You may be able to help the situation with a couple or three ceiling fans to push the heat back down to the floor.

Here is a recent thread on ceiling fans... http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=84988

and an older thread on ceiling fans.... http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11627

Charles

 

[SgtRauksauff]

...also I would like to make note, that this shop has NO insulation at all

I think that right there is most of the issue. Closing up the gaps will help quite a bit, but I think if you were to make a ceiling of some sort, that would be able to keep the heat DOWN, rather than leaving through the eaves/peak, that would make the biggest difference. I'd worry 'bout the walls after that.

good luck, sounds like a great space!

--sarge

 

[hvychve]

Charles , excellent write up, I thought of doing something similar to your flapper design, flip closed when door down, I like some key points you used, like the conduit and rollers, I also didnt mention this was a short sale and things got looted, I think it took more work to remove than the money he got for it ,
I will be looking forward to closing off these gaps, however I hope it helps , I have checked out insulating, boy is that gooing to be costly, I read , that the insulation process is done on assembly before the outer metal sheething applied, do I remove completly to do right? I dont really want to spray in, but we will see how long I can tolerate the cold, first and foremost is to cut down on your so called bird haven entrance points. thanks , keep you informed, I will try and shoot pictures , if my fingers can manage to find that little button on the camera , being that they will be cold

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Yes, they put double sided tape on the top wall girt and stick the insulation to it, pull it down tight and put the sheetmetal over it, use a level to get it straight and drive the screws. As much as people badmouth this method of insulation, it works. Yes, in some places like up north, you need more, but down here in the south, it works well. Was 13 degrees outside Tuesday morning and the shop was 29 inside. Sounds terrible, but if it were not insulated it would be about 15 inside. I've worked in metal buildings with no insulation, and they are cold, and in the summer, they are like an oven.

You need to insulate, before you re-wire. In the roof, you can go one of several ways. Batts that fit the width between the purlins, and screw on wire mesh and put it up in place and then raise the wire mesh and screw it to the purlins, or I've seen "baskets" that hung from the purlins that the insulation lay in. Then you skin over the bottom of the purlins, when you can afford it, with real think, like 29 gauge, sheetmetal.

Or spray foam it and then skin it inside. You would have about 8" of insulation, the building would be very comfortable with your wood heater then.

Charles

 

[s_ontario]

spray it then have them paint it white you can cover it with steel later watch out for 2012 its gona be a *****

 

[Motofixxer]

Yep...Gotta insulate. My vote in your situation would be to sprayfoam it. A little pricey, but the pro's outweigh the con's.

 

[hvychve]

Every thing I hear and see, they all refer to spray, I just think that is such a permanent messure to take, once its on its on, to where as a roll or etc( other than spray) your pipes and walls can be worked on or removed or whatever, but if I have all that goop sprayed on, isnt that a permanent cituation, I guess If I want a warmer shop, I better make a decision?

I have already ran all my emt and wiring , along with lighting , I didnt have cold temps. to contend with at the time, so now I am wising I had did my insulation first, but lighting was important, I am in the process of following some key points charles did, using a 3/4" conduit with a piece of flashing, sitting with mind open to devise me a method of swinging the thing closed and open, have some pretty good ideas, but want to think about it and not rush into it, got some 16 foot door seals to install on the strip, I think it will work well , after I master the first door , will need to tackle the other door.

wood burner is a blazin tonight, for what its worth, I think most of my heat is contributing to the ozone hole, due to fact , my roll up doors have those large openings, I dig the advice and trust me , I have taken it all in to account, thanks a ton, will let you all know if it helps at all, will tackle the insulation issue after I see what the gap closue does.

 

[Motofixxer]

The spray insulation is best option for sealing air gaps, an excellent vapor barrier, and highest R value for given thickness. It is a more permanent insulation. But it also depends on how thick you make it, and where your plumbing and electrical are placed. You still can add once you have it sprayed. It sounds like your wanting a functional shop, not necessarily a "pretty" shop. So you have more options to run what you need when and where you need it, as opposed to hiding it behind a finished facade.
Another option is to just spray the ceiling then build insulated walls with your electrical etc. Or you might be able to get away with just spraying the ceiling and leaving the walls. That might retain enough of the heat to reach a moderate climate. There are options...but with the building already up, your more limited. It's not going to be a cheap project.
The biggest issue you have is the door gaps and any other air gaps. That should be first priority.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

If you are not opening and closing some or all of the roll up doors right now, a quick fix to the gap at the top is a piece of about 2" PVC pipe dropped onto the gap. Of course you cannot open/close the door without removing it, but if you have unused doors, this will solve the problem till you get around to a permanent fix.

Charles