I have a 550 square foot cabin in Michigan. Right now I am using a mr heater 30,000 btu natural gas heater. It heats the place great on setting 1. The problem is that it will shut down when the oxygen level drops to around 18%. I want to heat the place all winter to save the drywall from cracking. I just gutted and redid the place. I was thinking about cracking a window or putting in a vent so i can get enough fresh are in there to keep it running, but that isn’t a good long term efficient plan. I’m thinking a mini split may be best option. The only downside of a mini split is that they don’t work well when it gets extremely cold. The cabin has spray insulation in walls and ceiling. Looking for other options.
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Heating a small cabin
- Thread starter sslopok
- Start date
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
The only downside of a mini split is that they don’t work well when it gets extremely cold.
Not true ! Some models work well even down below 0F. You have to be careful and select the correct model. Also, position the outside unit so the snow does not pile up on it.
danfromsyr
Well-known member
so you have electricity up there.
then I'd just go 100% electric with one of those oil filled radiator heaters.
buy one that doesn't have fancy electronic display. as those ones won't come back on if the power goes off and back on..
a simple control panel on/off panel will return to on unattended.
then I'd just go 100% electric with one of those oil filled radiator heaters.
buy one that doesn't have fancy electronic display. as those ones won't come back on if the power goes off and back on..
a simple control panel on/off panel will return to on unattended.
both electric & nat gas available? couple options ;
cheap to install would be electric ( thinking baseboard heater)
or a gas fireplace with a milivolt t stat
cheap to install would be electric ( thinking baseboard heater)
or a gas fireplace with a milivolt t stat
you need to compare fuel costs in your area ... but with natural gas available I would be very surprised if it;s not the cheapest by a lot.
Those unvented wall units are not designed for whole house heating ... for the reason you encounter. They are for supplemental heat. You are breathing all the gas products.
For single point heat source ....a modulating cabinet heater is ideal. matches load at different temps .... sealed combustion with outside air ... easy install. buy quality once
Those unvented wall units are not designed for whole house heating ... for the reason you encounter. They are for supplemental heat. You are breathing all the gas products.
For single point heat source ....a modulating cabinet heater is ideal. matches load at different temps .... sealed combustion with outside air ... easy install. buy quality once
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
" Several times a year the temps drop below freezing"
It's Michigan, of course it does! LOL
Electric resistance heat is 100% efficient. Baseboard heaters are inexpensive to buy and work well in unoccupied structures- set and forget.
You'll need about 10 watts/ ft2 to maintain comfortable living temps in a well-insulated structure.
To just keep things from freezing 8 watt/ ft2 should do it.
550 ft2 x 10=5500 watts
550 ft2 x 8 =4400 watts
Baseboard heaters are good for about 225 watts/ft
24' of baseboard heat for 72-75 F
20' of baseboard heat for 50-55 F
Or, put in a couple of 3000-4000 watt Fan forced electric wall units.
Either way, leave all interior doors and cabinet doors under sinks open so air can circulate.
It's Michigan, of course it does! LOL
Electric resistance heat is 100% efficient. Baseboard heaters are inexpensive to buy and work well in unoccupied structures- set and forget.
You'll need about 10 watts/ ft2 to maintain comfortable living temps in a well-insulated structure.
To just keep things from freezing 8 watt/ ft2 should do it.
550 ft2 x 10=5500 watts
550 ft2 x 8 =4400 watts
Baseboard heaters are good for about 225 watts/ft
24' of baseboard heat for 72-75 F
20' of baseboard heat for 50-55 F
Or, put in a couple of 3000-4000 watt Fan forced electric wall units.
Either way, leave all interior doors and cabinet doors under sinks open so air can circulate.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
True, but a heat pump does not "make" heat, it only moves it from one place to another. (Some people have a problem wrapping their heads around moving "heat" from 0F ambient into a 70F house but that is exactly what is happening.)Electric resistance heat is 100% efficient. Baseboard heaters are inexpensive to buy and work well in unoccupied structures- set and forget.
If you look at it from the standpoint of "how many kilowatt hours does it take to add "X" number of BTUs to my house at an outdoor temperature of "Y" a heat pump wins be a LARGE MARGIN every time. So effectively a heat pump is more than 100% efficient.
The big win on electric resistance heat is that it is inexpensive and easy to install. The lose is it is usually the most expensive to operate, which is fine if you are only going to use it intermittently.
The big win on heat pumps, especially good quality mini-split heat pumps is the cost to operate, especially when the ambient temperature is between about 20F through 60F. (Their efficiency does drop off at lower temps but still better than resistance heat.) The lose is initial cost.
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Briguy_123
Well-known member
Check out Rinnai direct vent wall furnace.
PugetDude
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Any specific baseboard heaters I should look at?
Oil-filled heaters are supposed to provide a "softer" heat (whatever that means) but I've never felt a discernible difference in performance, when it comes to electric resistance heat Watts are Watts and BTU's are BTU's. Conventional baseboards are really cheap, oil-filled are much more expensive.
Baseboard heaters are readily available from a big box DIY retailer, Electrical Supply house, Hardware Store, Farm Supply or if you're in the UP probably even the local 7-11.
Here is what Amazon buyers have to say:
https://www.amazon.com/slp/electric-baseboard-heaters/
You can't beat them for initial cost, ease of DIY installation and payback in a seasonal cabin application.
Electric baseboard is all about the same -- We did a ski house years ago and there are only a few makers. The case is heavier metal on the better stuff.
It's very quick to heat. You control it with direct wire thermostats. They are limited in the overall capacity -- but, that's fine as you zone them anyway. In most areas the cost of the heat is incredibly high due to electric costs .... and they require a large panel with many amps.
When I built my log cabin in PA years ago -- it was a combination of electric and it had a wood stove. I quickly got a propane cabinet heater ...
The fluid filled units ..smooth out the heat -- it's nice in drafty spaces where you would have constant on and off
It's very quick to heat. You control it with direct wire thermostats. They are limited in the overall capacity -- but, that's fine as you zone them anyway. In most areas the cost of the heat is incredibly high due to electric costs .... and they require a large panel with many amps.
When I built my log cabin in PA years ago -- it was a combination of electric and it had a wood stove. I quickly got a propane cabinet heater ...
The fluid filled units ..smooth out the heat -- it's nice in drafty spaces where you would have constant on and off
Bretny
Well-known member
If you dont need AC then electric is prob the way to go. Im sure with only 550sqft space is at a premium and putting in a smaller natgas furnace can really eat up space.
With electric you also have redundancy in more than one heater on separate circuits. Its also prob the cheapest initial investment.
Is drywall cracking due to cold temps a real issue? Never heard of it and will be building a seasonal cabin in the next 3-5yrs.
With electric you also have redundancy in more than one heater on separate circuits. Its also prob the cheapest initial investment.
Is drywall cracking due to cold temps a real issue? Never heard of it and will be building a seasonal cabin in the next 3-5yrs.
MadMechMaster
Well-known member
I really don't know for a fact, but I would expect cracking from high humidity and/or temperature fluctuations. You see that all the time in the urban exploration channels on YouTube. The windows are busted out, or there's a hole in the roof. The ones that are still sealed up look OK.
Already winterized? This is our first year with our place in Mi so I'm still learning. I added a drain to the water pipes after the shut off and added RV antifreeze wherever water stands, like drain traps and toilets. We have a furnace, so that is set at 50F for now. But people are telling me we can go lower.
Already winterized? This is our first year with our place in Mi so I'm still learning. I added a drain to the water pipes after the shut off and added RV antifreeze wherever water stands, like drain traps and toilets. We have a furnace, so that is set at 50F for now. But people are telling me we can go lower.
I go to my cabin about every other weekend. I can have the place winterized in 5 minutes so it does’t stop me from going. The drywall just got done this summer and the drywall guy told me if I don't heat it over the winter to expect cracks. I’m heading over there this weekend. I trying to stay with natural gas, dont want yo pay a ton to heat with electric. Leaning towards a mini or a direct vent.
Bretny
Well-known member
Kind of late in the year to be hooking up something like a mini split.
Can you add a make up air setup or a vent to your current heater? Ventless heaters just **** and the fact that its hitting the oxygen shut off would worry me with humans in there.
Can you add a make up air setup or a vent to your current heater? Ventless heaters just **** and the fact that its hitting the oxygen shut off would worry me with humans in there.
finn
Well-known member
We used electric baseboard heat as a low installed cost option when we built our cabin in the UP in the early 90s. Worked ok , but cost well over $300/ month to heat a 24x40’ cottage each month in January through March, with the thermostat set to the mid forties.
A mini split won’t work unless you have some means to keep the snow off the outdoor unit. It needs a shelter that protects the outdoor unit from both falling and wind driven snow. We now have one mini located under a raised deck that has the house foundation on two sides and a plywood shield on the third side. It works ok but struggles below -15 degrees. Two other units are hopelessly buried in snow from December through April.
We use a propane boiler now, but kept some of the old baseboard resistance heaters for backup when the snow blocks the boiler intake or condensation freezes in the pvc flue.
If you have NG, go with a small through the wall vented. I had one in the garage at a previous house, either an Empire or Sterling, and it kept the chill off.
Sounds like your spray foam mash your cabin too tight for the ventless heater to work. Law of unintended consequences, I guess.
A mini split won’t work unless you have some means to keep the snow off the outdoor unit. It needs a shelter that protects the outdoor unit from both falling and wind driven snow. We now have one mini located under a raised deck that has the house foundation on two sides and a plywood shield on the third side. It works ok but struggles below -15 degrees. Two other units are hopelessly buried in snow from December through April.
We use a propane boiler now, but kept some of the old baseboard resistance heaters for backup when the snow blocks the boiler intake or condensation freezes in the pvc flue.
If you have NG, go with a small through the wall vented. I had one in the garage at a previous house, either an Empire or Sterling, and it kept the chill off.
Sounds like your spray foam mash your cabin too tight for the ventless heater to work. Law of unintended consequences, I guess.
I am going to try installing a vent. When I am there I crack a window to keep fresh air moving in.
Building something to keep the split out of snow shouldn’t be a big problem.
The "ventless" don't have provisions for a vent. If you read the instructions you will see the warnings about using them for the primary source of heat.
Frankly -- they should not be able to sell a 30k anymore. With tighter buildings 30k makes using it incorrectly too much of a possibility.
30k .....Thats like taking the flue off you domestic water heater.
TractorJeff
Well-known member
A non-vented heater will release moisture into the building. Drywall will **** that moisture up!
Before everyone gets their ******* in a wad.
Any true clean combustion will release moisture, hence another reason to not use a Non-Vented Heater in a tight small building!
Before everyone gets their ******* in a wad.
Any true clean combustion will release moisture, hence another reason to not use a Non-Vented Heater in a tight small building!
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
Check out Rinnai direct vent wall furnace.
Great if you have natural gas already piped in.
A non-vented heater will release moisture into the building. Drywall will **** that moisture up!
Before everyone gets their ******* in a wad.
Any true clean combustion will release moisture, hence another reason to not use a Non-Vented Heater in a tight small building!
You are correct in the moisture issue. However, when you consider that cold air cannot carry moisture and everything is dry dry dry in winter, a bit of moisture created by that combustion process can be helpful from a comfort standpoint. Where you get into trouble with moisture with vent free is when the unit is oversized and run to long without sufficient make-up air. Also where your toolbox is ice cold and you fire up the heater and the dew point is close by and everything is wet.
TractorJeff
Well-known member
I'm thinking more in the lines of a "Hunting Camp" in New York State where they installed a non-vented heater, then proceeded to run it for almost 2 straight months. Place was well insulated but running 80% humidity with scratchy throats and occasional headaches.
Me?
I'm kind of funny about wind tight cabins and vent free heaters. (they don't mix!)
Admittedly I did use an Infrared Heater while insulating and sheet rocking my Shop project last year. It took a dehumidifier almost 6 weeks to pull that space down to a respectable level.
Me?
I'm kind of funny about wind tight cabins and vent free heaters. (they don't mix!)
Admittedly I did use an Infrared Heater while insulating and sheet rocking my Shop project last year. It took a dehumidifier almost 6 weeks to pull that space down to a respectable level.
Im going to be purchasing a rinnai 16,700 btu direct vent nat gas. It is the smartest thing in my opinion. I already ran black pipe and it will be cost effective to run. I went to the cabin to do a bunch of work yesterday. When I left today I left heater on the lowest setting and cracked a window and have a fan circulating air. I will be purchasing the new furnace tomorrow.