eschoendorff
Well-known member
Consider your braggin' rights validated. And thanks for the pics. This is the only photo-documented jack rebuild that Ed is aware of.
BTW, what is "The Kentucky 4 Link?"
BTW, what is "The Kentucky 4 Link?"
Hein Warner Floor Jack
- Thread starter srosa707
- Start date
billymade
Well-known member
Awesome jack, so how much does it usually cost to rebuild the ram and do you typically need to re-hone the bores with something like a wheel cylinder hone? Most hydraulic cylinders I have rebuilt typically seem to have junk on on side of the bore (wherever the "bottom" is); rust and yucky stuff affects the sealing ability to produce pressure and in bad situations, have pitted walls. Yours look perfect; is this after honing? I need to keep my eyes open for one of these old work horses; for some reason, where I live I never see any for sale!
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Uncle Buck
Banned
Elroy, thanks so much for actually documenting the rebuild process that has been discussed here so often in the past. Judging from the pictures it looks as though you did not have to split the frame to get the bottle out. I think that is a far superior design, at least from the ease of rebuilding aspect than that of most of the oldies I have encountered. The old Walker and Blackhawk designs all seemed to require that the frame be separated to remove the bottle (usually a real pain in the ****!)
Again, thanks for sharing this with the board. I will look forward to following along as you go through the rebuild process.
Again, thanks for sharing this with the board. I will look forward to following along as you go through the rebuild process.
merlin
Active member
First documented rebuild I've seen, also. Thanks Elroy.
As a side note about installing the Teflon or Plastic seals, this may help:
Where I work, we design and build prototype oilfield tools. We use some seals made out of Molyglass. It is glass-filled teflon, makes it harder. These seals will not fit on the rod cold. We heat them in a toaster oven at about 250 degrees for a few minutes, and they get a little soft. Then you can push them on by hand. When they cool, they are tight again. Kind of like putting in wrist pins in a piston rod (pressed in type). The seals are good for something like 450 degrees, so it doesn't damage them.
Maybe you could do the same with these plastic jack seals, just to make it a bit easier.
As a side note about installing the Teflon or Plastic seals, this may help:
Where I work, we design and build prototype oilfield tools. We use some seals made out of Molyglass. It is glass-filled teflon, makes it harder. These seals will not fit on the rod cold. We heat them in a toaster oven at about 250 degrees for a few minutes, and they get a little soft. Then you can push them on by hand. When they cool, they are tight again. Kind of like putting in wrist pins in a piston rod (pressed in type). The seals are good for something like 450 degrees, so it doesn't damage them.
Maybe you could do the same with these plastic jack seals, just to make it a bit easier.
Merlin: Thanks for the trick, but Elroy doesn't think he is going to need it. The original piston seal was leather and the replacement is some kind of "molded" polymer like nitrile or neoprene. The rod packing in the kit is still leather as the original.
Assembly continues as Elroy was has been able to get the cylinder out of the main body. As a result, the cylinder is getting a trip across the drill press for a up close personal visit with mister hone.
Elroy will post up later
Mr. Hone has paid a visit and performed his three stone services:
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Paint will now have a few days to dry before the "power units" returns home:
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Some on the board may give a pinch less while others may find interest. Elroy has posted for those who are interested.
Paint will now have a few days to dry before the "power units" returns home:
Some on the board may give a pinch less while others may find interest. Elroy has posted for those who are interested.
Uncle Buck
Banned
Keep em comin old boy, looks as though you are doing a jamb up good job! Paying close attention to the same details as I do, glad to see that!
Well progress had to stop on the Hein Werner for a few days because Elroy had a little trouble finding someone to borrow tools from so he could work on his "high performance twin turbo sports car"
Actually the power pack is going back together tonight and Elroy will post up as progress is made.
Actually the power pack is going back together tonight and Elroy will post up as progress is made.
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As promised here are are few shots of the hydraulic ram assembly. During assembly, Elroy decided to make a few changes in an effort to minimize leaks and improve the overall performance of the jack. First "improvement" was utilizing a little liquid Teflon on the high pressure end in the cylinder. There is an O-ring on the inside of the cylinder and if it does leak at this joint the high pressure fluid simply returns to the reservoir. But an internal leak here would allow the ram to "leak down" under load which would be unacceptable to Elroy so the decision was made to apply some Teflon at this joint. That loose seal is the original leather piston seal.
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Here is another deviation from stock in an effort to minimize leaks. Elroy applied some black RTV silicone to the joint at the reservoir. The original seal was simply metal to metal and Elroy can't see this mod as being anything but an improvement.
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Elroy clamped the cylinder to the bench to torqued the reservoir on with a spanner wrench first then followed up with a few well placed blows with a punch and ball peen.
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Another deviation from stock and hopefully also an improvement was Elroy's decision to utilize a soft copper washer under the plunger plug. The only real draw back is the reduced floor clearance under the jack as it causes the plug to sit up (down) another 3/32". No big deal. Elroy also decided to utilize the import plunger procured back in 2000 as it was .002" larger and not nearly as worn as the 1978 original Hein Werner plunger.
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In an effort to minimize galling between the plunger and the steel guide Elroy applied some never-seeze to the plunger
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And finially a general shot of the mess. Just picked up that Cornwell "B" open end and that 15/16" open end came in handy tonight.
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Here is another deviation from stock in an effort to minimize leaks. Elroy applied some black RTV silicone to the joint at the reservoir. The original seal was simply metal to metal and Elroy can't see this mod as being anything but an improvement.
Elroy clamped the cylinder to the bench to torqued the reservoir on with a spanner wrench first then followed up with a few well placed blows with a punch and ball peen.
Another deviation from stock and hopefully also an improvement was Elroy's decision to utilize a soft copper washer under the plunger plug. The only real draw back is the reduced floor clearance under the jack as it causes the plug to sit up (down) another 3/32". No big deal. Elroy also decided to utilize the import plunger procured back in 2000 as it was .002" larger and not nearly as worn as the 1978 original Hein Werner plunger.
In an effort to minimize galling between the plunger and the steel guide Elroy applied some never-seeze to the plunger
And finially a general shot of the mess. Just picked up that Cornwell "B" open end and that 15/16" open end came in handy tonight.
billymade
Well-known member
Is "never seize"; the same as anti seize?
Man, all the parts look like such high quality; it really is a pleasure to look at all the parts! The hydraulic unit in particular looks like it is built like a tank; I have never had the pleasure to have or work with a jack of that high quality! There is no question that jack is the "real deal"!!!! Thanks again for the repair "how to" pictorial!
Man, all the parts look like such high quality; it really is a pleasure to look at all the parts! The hydraulic unit in particular looks like it is built like a tank; I have never had the pleasure to have or work with a jack of that high quality! There is no question that jack is the "real deal"!!!! Thanks again for the repair "how to" pictorial!
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wantedabiggergarage
Member Emeritus
Elroy, go to bed and get some rest. Tomorrow you can drive your twin turbo over and borrow a dictionary.
billymade
Well-known member
Didn't mean to offend; I just didn't know if you were mentioning some "special sauce" for hydraulics or something I wasn't aware of! Thanks again for the rebuild pics!!
Well it's that time again for another installment of "rebuild the Hein Werner".
Here is the release valve ready for installation. This is yet another area where Elroy has deviated from the original assembly in that Teflon tape will be utilized on the mounting threads. These threads are only subjected to low pressure but Elroy is determined not to have any leaks. The modern day practice is not to utilize tape for there is a risk of contamination in the system. Notice that the first thread is uncovered. That is where a mechanical seal is formed at the base of the spot face in the main body. Elroy's application will ensure that no tape is allowed into the system and will only help seal the threads against any seepage that may occur over time. The only real trick here is to make sure the needle is fully retracted before installing the valve assembly. If the needle was extended you take the risk of jambing the needle into the seat. If you don't pay attention here you take the risk of destroying the main body and needle. Not good. Oh, and by the way, that spring loaded plunger was a real ***** to install.
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This brass nut loads the rod wiper packing. This was one area Elroy assembled like the factory with no sealer and guess what? It leaked. Yep, Elroy prefilled the cylinder with oil thru the bleed off valve last night. Let it sit all day and when Elroy came home from work it had formed a nice drip at the threads. Pulled it apart tonight during final assembly and installed some Teflon tape to the packing nut threads. Bet that stops the leak !!
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Finally it's all done. This week end it will get washed off and painted.
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The question is, what color??
Suggestions please
Here is the release valve ready for installation. This is yet another area where Elroy has deviated from the original assembly in that Teflon tape will be utilized on the mounting threads. These threads are only subjected to low pressure but Elroy is determined not to have any leaks. The modern day practice is not to utilize tape for there is a risk of contamination in the system. Notice that the first thread is uncovered. That is where a mechanical seal is formed at the base of the spot face in the main body. Elroy's application will ensure that no tape is allowed into the system and will only help seal the threads against any seepage that may occur over time. The only real trick here is to make sure the needle is fully retracted before installing the valve assembly. If the needle was extended you take the risk of jambing the needle into the seat. If you don't pay attention here you take the risk of destroying the main body and needle. Not good. Oh, and by the way, that spring loaded plunger was a real ***** to install.
This brass nut loads the rod wiper packing. This was one area Elroy assembled like the factory with no sealer and guess what? It leaked. Yep, Elroy prefilled the cylinder with oil thru the bleed off valve last night. Let it sit all day and when Elroy came home from work it had formed a nice drip at the threads. Pulled it apart tonight during final assembly and installed some Teflon tape to the packing nut threads. Bet that stops the leak !!
Finally it's all done. This week end it will get washed off and painted.
The question is, what color??
Suggestions please
Underdog
Well-known member
Gotta be Orange!
There's no doubt about it, its been a challenge. Been one or two choice words utilized as well. Elroy bets he has a good 20 hours in it to this point. Most of the time being spent simply on cleaning parts.
This has been a real good jack for many years but at Christmas time, Elroy had a vehicle break down that needed prompt attention and that damn jack gave nothing but troubles. Made the job even worse. The decision was made 8 months ago this was going to get serviced.
When all the parts get put up and Elroy reviews all the paper work he'll post up some costs. It wasn't that cheap to do. So give me some guesses here. What do you think it cost in PARTS to do this ?? Don't guess too low.
I would like to know how much you have in parts for this project, I have an old hein werner jack but I am not sure it is worth rebuilding since the rod has deep scratches where the seal rides. It is either a 3 or 4 ton similar to the one in this link.http://www.jackxchange.com/products/HW93657.cfm
billymade
Well-known member
I wonder if you ship it out to this guy and he cold put a brass sleeve in it and then rebuild it? Have you priced a new ram or body of the cylinder?
http://www.brakecylinder.com/index.htm
http://www.brakecylinder.com/index.htm
billymade
Well-known member
Here are some exploded views that might be helpful: http://www.ohiohydraulic.com/hein-werner drawing page.htm
The beginning of this thread has some sources for parts listed too : http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18055&highlight=hein+warner
The beginning of this thread has some sources for parts listed too : http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18055&highlight=hein+warner
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Uncle Buck
Banned
The cost really depends on where you bought the kit, some model specific kits can be bought for as little as $25-30, but other sources for the same kit can go as high as $60-90 for a handfull of o-rings and wipers. I suspect Elroy is a wee bit picky about his parts sources so I will guess the higher figure for a quality kit. Also I suppose I could be out of touch on my parts prices since I have not bought a new rebuild kit in most of 10 yrs. My estimate is for the hard parts only and does not take into account paint, parts cleaner and the rest of the extras you might have used. I suppose I would say somewhere around or possibly a bit higher than a C note taking the extras into consideration.
Still a wiser use of your money than scrapping it when you consider the fact that it will likely outlast Elroy once the job is done.
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Elroy has a little supplemental information associated with the costs of this project.
Original purchase price for this 1-1/2 ton Hein-Werner model WS floor jack with serial number 10781268 was $238.50 paid on 11-28-1978 plus 5% sales tax (at that time) of $11.93 for a total initial cost of $250.43. Purchase made thru Queen Hydraulics in Louisville, Kentucky.
On 9-20-2000, Elroy contacted the original distributor and inquired as to a soft seal kit for this same jack as some leakage at the plunger had developed. This contact was directed to the Waltz-Dettmer Supply company located in Cincinnati, Ohio. Discussions with the sales rep resulted in an order being placed for a complete, genuine Hein-Werner # H8074700 repair kit @ $21.75, a #H2369500 pump clip and complete aftermarket pump piston assembly complete with seals @ $5.00. With $6.51 in shipping and sales tax the total came to $37.01.
At that point in time, Elroy utilized the complete aftermarket pump rod and clip leaving the complete repair kit as unopened. Remember: if it's in stock, we got it !!!
Starting a few weeks ago Elroy made these additional purchases:
1 gallon of Mobil DTE25 medium viscosity hydraulic oil (ISO46). Purchase at the local Grainger under part number 4F973 @ $18.58.
(1) roll of paper towels @ $2.00
(3) cans of Chevrolet Orange engine enamel @ $5.49 each
(1) large tube of black RTV Silicone @ $6.49
(1) can of Gloss Black spray paint @ $3.97
(1) can of Gloss White spray paint @ $3.97
(1) Pair of 3/4" soft copper drain plugs gaskets @ $2.99
(2) cans of CRC "Brakleen" @ $3.49 each
(1) 6" diameter wire brush @ $5.99
Grand total for "parts" was $104.45 plus 6% tax on the paint and stuff. Recently Elroy quoted another rebuild kit for a 1-1/4 ton model OS jack @ $69.50. As a result IF Elroy had to procure a kit today, just the parts would be about $137.00 !!! Ouch
Elroy is fully aware some of the cost were excessive. Like buying a full gallon of oil when it only required a quart. But still, this gives you an idea on the costs associated with doing a project like this. Then again there was the masking tape used and the steel wool and wet dry paper and the files and the tools and the radio music and the BEER. Don't dare forget the BEER.
Elroy is looking forward to finishing this little project.
Elroy has also noticed there has been quite a few views on this thread but has been a little disappointed there has not been more comments made. Go ahead, Elroy has thick skin and would like to hear some comments.
Original purchase price for this 1-1/2 ton Hein-Werner model WS floor jack with serial number 10781268 was $238.50 paid on 11-28-1978 plus 5% sales tax (at that time) of $11.93 for a total initial cost of $250.43. Purchase made thru Queen Hydraulics in Louisville, Kentucky.
On 9-20-2000, Elroy contacted the original distributor and inquired as to a soft seal kit for this same jack as some leakage at the plunger had developed. This contact was directed to the Waltz-Dettmer Supply company located in Cincinnati, Ohio. Discussions with the sales rep resulted in an order being placed for a complete, genuine Hein-Werner # H8074700 repair kit @ $21.75, a #H2369500 pump clip and complete aftermarket pump piston assembly complete with seals @ $5.00. With $6.51 in shipping and sales tax the total came to $37.01.
At that point in time, Elroy utilized the complete aftermarket pump rod and clip leaving the complete repair kit as unopened. Remember: if it's in stock, we got it !!!
Starting a few weeks ago Elroy made these additional purchases:
1 gallon of Mobil DTE25 medium viscosity hydraulic oil (ISO46). Purchase at the local Grainger under part number 4F973 @ $18.58.
(1) roll of paper towels @ $2.00
(3) cans of Chevrolet Orange engine enamel @ $5.49 each
(1) large tube of black RTV Silicone @ $6.49
(1) can of Gloss Black spray paint @ $3.97
(1) can of Gloss White spray paint @ $3.97
(1) Pair of 3/4" soft copper drain plugs gaskets @ $2.99
(2) cans of CRC "Brakleen" @ $3.49 each
(1) 6" diameter wire brush @ $5.99
Grand total for "parts" was $104.45 plus 6% tax on the paint and stuff. Recently Elroy quoted another rebuild kit for a 1-1/4 ton model OS jack @ $69.50. As a result IF Elroy had to procure a kit today, just the parts would be about $137.00 !!! Ouch
Elroy is fully aware some of the cost were excessive. Like buying a full gallon of oil when it only required a quart. But still, this gives you an idea on the costs associated with doing a project like this. Then again there was the masking tape used and the steel wool and wet dry paper and the files and the tools and the radio music and the BEER. Don't dare forget the BEER.
Elroy is looking forward to finishing this little project.
Elroy has also noticed there has been quite a few views on this thread but has been a little disappointed there has not been more comments made. Go ahead, Elroy has thick skin and would like to hear some comments.
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billymade
Well-known member
Man, either you have a photographic memory or you kept have all the receipts for the whole life of your jack; impressive either way! Seeing how the rebuild kit used to be $20 makes you wish you had stocked up on a couple back in the day! I think your rebuild has been excellent and your attention to detail is impressive; are sure your not a german, a machinist or engineer? LOL! I think the attention to detail and all the little improvements you made will increase the life of your jack; it all the little things that separate the difference between a quality rebuild and just throwing parts at something.
billymade
Well-known member
Elroy, do you think a brass sleeve is a viable option for the other poster with one of the larger jacks that has a pitted cylinder? Are hard parts still available for the early jacks or do allot of these hydraulic repair houses have rebuildable core parts?
The last time Elroy checked I believe he was all three
When Elroy procured his kit back in 2000 he was told that every part was available. Then again that was going on 9 years ago.
If a damaged rod is the only problem, Elroy would encourage the re-build. There are actually three ways to go here. Repair what you have, find a replacement or have one made. The rod in Elroy's jack was very simple piece that any machine shop worth a **** should be able to whip up in a hour or so.
So what are you looking at ? Maybe $200 for a new rod.
Considering the replacement costs on that 4 ton jack is over a grand. Ya it's worth the trouble.
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I will try to get pics of it and post it here, it is out at my moms since it needs rebuilt and my garage has too much stuff in there as it is. Hopefully some of these guys can help me find the parts I need. It use to be a really good jack and it would be nice to have a quality jack again.
billymade
Well-known member
Man, looks awesome! So, your a a German, a machinist and a engineer! I must be clairvoyant! LOL!
Elroy thanks you for the kind words. It will look a lot better with a load on it and no leaks. If it leaks once a load is applied, Elroy is thinking about limiting his efforts to only working on "High Performance Twin Turbo Sports Cars" with "borrowed tools".
The biggest ***** in this whole process was getting the cylinder bleed on the bench. Talk about a mess! Elroy learned the hard way you can't have it under filled or over filled. Ya see this thing is completely sealed and uses the air volume about the reservoir. Too much fluid and it won't collapse fully and too little fluid prevents the cylinder from fully extending. Word to the wise: Fill as indicted. No more no less.
tatra
Well-known member
elroy, excellent continuity...............went and looked at mine and can't find any markings as the decals have worn off long ago...............did flip it over and notice that the cylinder looks just like a bottle jack welded to the valve body.............i remember when i bought it, it was a heinwerner 1.5 ton i bought for $125 can. back in 82 or so...............maybe a chi tai knock off back then?
This may be Elroy's final installment of the "Hein-Werner" rebuild. Late last week Elroy finished up the assembly of the hydraulic ram. Prior to installing the bleed valve the cylinder was filled with fluid to check for leaks. A few minor things were dissassembled and sealed. With no leaks the cylinder was bleed on the bench. The cylinder was then primed with the top coat applied Sunday. Three days dry time and tonight was final asembly.
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Sorry, but it's getting a little dark out tonight. That usaully happens about this time every night
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It looks just a little bit better in Elroy's opinion and it damn sure better work better as well
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Sorry, but it's getting a little dark out tonight. That usaully happens about this time every night
It looks just a little bit better in Elroy's opinion and it damn sure better work better as well
billymade
Well-known member
Awesome! Looks new or better then new!!!!! Nice touch; making the surface contact part of the wheels clean and "silver'; removing or masking any paint! You attention to detail is amazing.... german, engineer, machinist.... its all coming clear now....
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billymade
Well-known member
Are you going to re-rivet or re-attach the badge/info plate?
It is re-attached. The tag was held on with spiral shank drive rivets and the pilot hole was drilled clean through the lifting arm casting at the factory. Elroy took a pin punch to the rivets from the back side and removed the tag. The casting is painted under the tag and the rivets were just stuck in the holes finger tight during painting. The tag was removed, straightened as much as possible and reinstalled. Elroy didn't just mask the tag off.
billymade
Well-known member
I guess it was a optical illusion; it looked like you had just placed it there for the photo shoot but now I can see they are orange!
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