Hein Werner O Boy
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Burgerkong
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OP
engineer031
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OP
engineer031
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OP
engineer031
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I thought all these jacks had a T handle but this one is not. I cleaned it up and noticed a drip at the bottom plug, what is the purpose of this plug ? to access the piston ?
The gasket was cracked so I found an oring for now for it and added some oil to it. I dont see any other leak so I jack it up with no load and after 25-30 mins it is sitting bottomed out. Then I jack up my car and leave it a good 30 mins and it is still fully raised.
I dont know why that is
The gasket was cracked so I found an oring for now for it and added some oil to it. I dont see any other leak so I jack it up with no load and after 25-30 mins it is sitting bottomed out. Then I jack up my car and leave it a good 30 mins and it is still fully raised.
I dont know why that is
The reason is that the check ball that holds the load is being seated correctly, or at least better, with a load on, but without a load, it leaks. Most likely a dirty seat, with gum or other type of soft material that prevents full seating of the check ball without a load. The bigger of the two check balls, or one way balls, or working valve balls, is the one holding the load after you stop pumping the handle. This ball has to make a perfect seal with its seat, otherwise, the lifting arm bleeds down. When you pump the handle, this ball moves away from the seat, as soon as you stop pumping, oil pressure pushes the ball back against its seat.
Check balls should look bright, with a perfect smooth surface; any gray, dull looking ball should be replaced with a bearing quality ball and not a general purpose, low carbon ball.
Be very careful not to damage the seat edge, which is the intersection of the top horizontal part of the seat and the vertical side of the hole. That edge gets damaged, or nicked in any way and it is bye bye pump. Only clean with brake cleaning spray, non chlorinated, or spray carb cleaner. If you feel the need to scrape the seat, do it softly and with something made out of plastic. Also, lubricate the seal right away after cleaning as rust can damage the seat's edge easily. Just a little metal has to rust away to render the seat useless.
When this check ball leaks under load, if you leave the handle in the horizontal position, as the oil leaks back to where it came from, which is the pump piston, the handle will rise slowly until it reaches its vertical position. If you leave the handle in the vertical position, you will not see it rising, of course.
Check balls should look bright, with a perfect smooth surface; any gray, dull looking ball should be replaced with a bearing quality ball and not a general purpose, low carbon ball.
Be very careful not to damage the seat edge, which is the intersection of the top horizontal part of the seat and the vertical side of the hole. That edge gets damaged, or nicked in any way and it is bye bye pump. Only clean with brake cleaning spray, non chlorinated, or spray carb cleaner. If you feel the need to scrape the seat, do it softly and with something made out of plastic. Also, lubricate the seal right away after cleaning as rust can damage the seat's edge easily. Just a little metal has to rust away to render the seat useless.
When this check ball leaks under load, if you leave the handle in the horizontal position, as the oil leaks back to where it came from, which is the pump piston, the handle will rise slowly until it reaches its vertical position. If you leave the handle in the vertical position, you will not see it rising, of course.
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I'm not sure if I ever seen a OS/Oboy with a T handle, some of the WS units definitely had a T handle, some only carried the straight handle. The "Complete" leak down issue is more than likely associated with a Worn Leather piston seal, due to there nature they really need "Cylinder Pressure" to create a positive seal against the cylinder wall. The cylinder pressure created from the weight of the lift arm and return springs just isn't doing it, versus the cylinder pressure created by lifting your vehicle. Highly unlikely a valve issue would allow a "complete leak down" at least with a full extension just based off the amount of oil in the cylinder would dramatically overcome the pump piston galley and valve when the return flow of oil was stopped by the seating of the lower ball. Obviously a jack of this age could suffer from multiple areas of failure, but valve issues under load are quite noticeable in regards to handle feedback. Im not sure what the purpose of the plug on the bottom was, it obviously feeds the bottom of the pump piston. I service all my OS/WS units from the top as its beveled for ease of installation. I reckon it would be quicker from the bottom though, simply remove the Clip and push it out, service the seal and reinstall, then again now that I think about it... The pump piston head is normally swollen from repeated contact with the roller, it more than likely wouldn't clear the guide. Yep.. Top End is better.
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Anyway, whether it is an issue of valves leaking or an old piston cup not sealing properly under no load, which is totally possible, the OP should replace the seals as a safety measure instead of using the jack as it is. The jack is old and even if it working now, the piston cup can fail at any moment. I would be very wary about using any old jack without knowing the condition of the seals. If the piston cup breaks, it could well happen when one is putting the jacks stands under the car. At least scary if no one gets hurt.
This same recommendation apply to jacks owned by the same person since new and that after 20 plus years are still working. Piston cups and u-cups do not last forever.
As for the pump piston, if the bigger/upper ball leaks, the oil will flow back until the pump piston reaches it maximum extension; when the pump piston is stopped from going out any further, the lifting arm stops leaking down as now the pump piston takes the place of the upper ball and is now holding the weight of the load. If the pump piston seal happens to be leaking, then the lift arm would keep going down as the oil leaks out by the pump piston seal.
Some OS did come with a T handle. I have one with the T that I rescued from a scrap metal yard.The body is quite rusty, with lot of pitting near the front part of the body (therefore ugly) but the pump was mostly rust free.
At least two other GJ members have T handled OS or O'boys. The pictures below are from one of them. Adding the two horizontal handles should not be very difficult. You could weld two pieces of tubing or pipes to the handle.
This same recommendation apply to jacks owned by the same person since new and that after 20 plus years are still working. Piston cups and u-cups do not last forever.
As for the pump piston, if the bigger/upper ball leaks, the oil will flow back until the pump piston reaches it maximum extension; when the pump piston is stopped from going out any further, the lifting arm stops leaking down as now the pump piston takes the place of the upper ball and is now holding the weight of the load. If the pump piston seal happens to be leaking, then the lift arm would keep going down as the oil leaks out by the pump piston seal.
Some OS did come with a T handle. I have one with the T that I rescued from a scrap metal yard.The body is quite rusty, with lot of pitting near the front part of the body (therefore ugly) but the pump was mostly rust free.
At least two other GJ members have T handled OS or O'boys. The pictures below are from one of them. Adding the two horizontal handles should not be very difficult. You could weld two pieces of tubing or pipes to the handle.
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Yeah.. I never made the recommendation that the OP shouldn't service the Jack, I've been in discussion with him in regards to the "In's and Outs of this Jack" along with the K model he owns. In regards to whether you think it's a Valve Issue or Not, Your Free to Give your Advice, I clearly said this jack could be suffering from multiple Area, but leaking pump piston wasn't noted by the OP publicly or Privately, so I stand by my earlier assessment that a "Full cylinder Bleed down" in regards to the "Volume" of Oil Displaced would easily exceed the volume of the Pump Piston/valve system, thus rule out a complete drop outside of any External leakage (not noted on or Off load) etc. Anyways.. Handle feedback under load would be the absolute way to verify upper ball/seat condition. Interesting about the OS and the T Handle, I don't recall seeing any here in the MidWest, Mainly WS if Memory serves.
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1950mercury
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Can I ask what you payed for it
ex-x-fire
Well-known member
Hell, people have driven 2.5hrs for a HF jack. You did ok.
I agree with you that the problem might be caused by a worn out piston cup that leaks under no load for the reason you explained, that there is not enough load to expand the flexible sides of the leather piston cup and make a good seal. This same situation then would be the reason to actually replace the piston cup. If it can not hold the weight of the arm, then it is not good enough. Such a situation would not happen with an u-cup. If the u-cup leaks under no load, it will most likely leak under load more so, just because the u cup lips and sides are stiffer than the leather piston cup. Not flexible enough to expand and seal against the cylinder if it is worn out as a leather piston cup could.
When I made the comment about the check valves, I assumed, for the sake of discussion, that the piston cup was in good enough shape to seal under a no load situation. Apparently, it isn't.
The idea of finding any vintage jack is to actually find one, not to find one that works with the original seals. My recommendation has always being that old jacks should be repaired when bought instead of being tempted to leave it as it is and use it if it still works. From what I have read here in other threads, there is disappointment when someone buys an old jack and it does not work. Many buyers are expecting that the old jack works like a new jack with the old seals. The mind set should be to buy the jack and replace the seals/repair it whether it works or not. Don't even waste time testing to see if it works or not.
When I made the comment about the check valves, I assumed, for the sake of discussion, that the piston cup was in good enough shape to seal under a no load situation. Apparently, it isn't.
The idea of finding any vintage jack is to actually find one, not to find one that works with the original seals. My recommendation has always being that old jacks should be repaired when bought instead of being tempted to leave it as it is and use it if it still works. From what I have read here in other threads, there is disappointment when someone buys an old jack and it does not work. Many buyers are expecting that the old jack works like a new jack with the old seals. The mind set should be to buy the jack and replace the seals/repair it whether it works or not. Don't even waste time testing to see if it works or not.
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No worries. I was just taking a opportunity to make sure there was clarity in regards to how Jacks operate, thus making it easier for the end user to troubleshoot when the time comes. Its a No Brainer IMO in regards to whether one should completely reseal versus only fixing the immediate problems, unfortunately Most want to get by as cheap as possible today and fix Tomorrow's problems, Next week. Lol
Does the O'Boy handle just remove when the bolt is taken out at the bottom (7/16 head I think)? I circled the bolt in question in yellow. I did that and my handle seems to be stuck. Maybe a little heat to get it out, or am I missing something on taking it off? Its a T handle.
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engineer031
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I paid 35.00 for the jack but after I picked it up I went to Niagara Falls and went to the casino and walked out 100.00 ahead so in the end after 50.00 in gas and going to eat I broke out even so over all it was worth it to me.
OP
engineer031
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I never tried to take that bolt out I just squeezed the 2 pins and it came off
OP
engineer031
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EDGAR In your picture did you paint the jack red the reason I ask is my jack is red and I cant see any orange indication anyplace on it except for the hydraulic unit itself but I thought they all were orange
OP
engineer031
Well-known member
I fully intend to rebuild it once I get my other jack fixed. I have got by with ramps and a trolly jack for many years and had the hoist where I worked but I figured it was time to have a better jack and feel the old jacks are built better and seen how other members restored jacks I wanted to do the same.
I am asking questions because even though I have used many jacks for years I have never rebuilt one and an trying to understand them more.
I appreciate all of the information from everyone
I notice the ID plate has no serial number and it is very good shape so it makes me think it was replaced at one point
Is there anyway to tell the age of this jack ?
I know it is hard to tell but is there some hints with things on it
I am asking questions because even though I have used many jacks for years I have never rebuilt one and an trying to understand them more.
I appreciate all of the information from everyone
I notice the ID plate has no serial number and it is very good shape so it makes me think it was replaced at one point
Is there anyway to tell the age of this jack ?
I know it is hard to tell but is there some hints with things on it
My pins were stuck, thats why it didn't just pop off. A little persuasion and its all good. My jack is completely orange. Its now sent out to a rebuilder with 2 others I picked up recently, so i'll have a few jacks to finish the restoration of when the hydraulics are done. Its just not worth it for me to do it, cost vs time. Plus they will do a better job than I will as I don't have hones, or polishers, or the tool to get the main nut off. a HW O'boy, Snap on YA700, and a Blackhawk S23.
The red jack in the pictures is owned by another GJ member, the pictures' captions shows the user name of the member as: MTNWKR. The jack I rescued was orange and rust color ( the front of the jack is very rusty). See below another GJ member O'BOY. It is orange. Maybe your pump was repaired before and repainted? Maybe it was sandblasted and there is no sign of the orange paint anymore? All of the HW O'BOYS I have seen have been orange in color.
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engineer031
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I think they all were orange and mine was painted at some point. It is time consuming im working on another jack and the hours add up fast. I dont mind spending the time to fix it either way we both will have a good jack when we finish them
OP
engineer031
Well-known member
When I saw the red jack it had me thinking maybe they made red ones but I have never seen anything but orange. Now im thinking at some point in time the pump was repaired and while it was out of the jack it was painted red. I intent to restore it to the orange
I'm in agreement with this line of thought completely. A lot of the vintage hydraulic jacks are pretty cool however, the old seals within them are not. You've got to replace them and tend to any other required repairs for safety reasons.
I think there are more than a few folks here that get all excited about obtaining a vintage jack only to find out that it's not always cost effective to put one back in service.
Always enjoy the discussions between you and Hiball.....well most of the time...
I'm in agreement with this line of thought completely. A lot of the vintage hydraulic jacks are pretty cool however, the old seals within them are not. You've got to replace them and tend to any other required repairs for safety reasons.
I think there are more than a few folks here that get all excited about obtaining a vintage jack only to find out that it's not always cost effective to put one back in service.
Always enjoy the discussions between you and Hiball.....well most of the time...
Lol.. It's your fault, you set the bar too high with your Blackhawk Beauties, I would hate to even guess how many threads there are here at GJ in regards to Newly Purchased S4's or S18's and most can't get past the Kit Price, let alone the other costs associated with returning it to working order.
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I have a o’boy with a T-handle.
I’ll get a better picture but in this pic you can see why I love this jack so much.
Rob.M