Help a Machine/Metal Shop Newbie

[SouperGrover]

Hey guys,

My son has started taking Machine shop in high school ths year and he seems to really like it. Now, I know NOTHING about working with metal. I've drawn a few beads about 25 years ago, but that's it. I am setting up a small woodshop in my 2 car garage with things like a miter saw, table saw, drill press and band saw eventually. Could I encorporate metal work in that area as well? Can I multipurpose any of the woodworking tools with different kinds of bits or blades? We are talking entry level kind of projects he and I will be working on. What else should I try to integrate into the build if I can? Looking for basic, entry level kinds of stuff

He's got 4 years of high school left, so if we can't work metal in our garage (we still have to park a car in there unfortunately) I can just tell him to do his projects at school. They are going to have a lot better tools than us anyway. Just thought I'd entertain the idea

 

[schor]

Hey guys,

My son has started taking Machine shop in high school ths year and he seems to really like it. Now, I know NOTHING about working with metal. I've drawn a few beads about 25 years ago, but that's it. I am setting up a small woodshop in my 2 car garage with things like a miter saw, table saw, drill press and band saw eventually. Could I encorporate metal work in that area as well? Can I multipurpose any of the woodworking tools with different kinds of bits or blades? We are talking entry level kind of projects e and I will be working on. What else should I try to integrate into the build if I can? Looking for basic, entry level kinds of stuff

He's got 4 years of high school left, so if we can't work metal in our garage (we still have to park a car in there unfortunately) I can just tell him to do his projects at school. Just thought I'd entertain the idea

Not much metalwork can be done with woodworking tools. If your drillpress can get low enough speeds you can drill metal.

Keep your eyes out for a small lathe and mill. Getting an older machine is usually cheaper and better quality than new. ie; an atlas lathe can be had for $500 with tooling, small milling machines under $1000 with tooling.

You could go with the micro stuff but I'm sure they will be outgrown in short order.

I have both wood and metal machines in my shop, I buy almost everything off kijiji (craigs list), got my lathe for free but have bought/fixed/sold a few other lathes, I got my benchtop mill for $700, bandsaw for $100, power hacksaw $100, tons of other things for $100 and under. Start looking and pick something up to get him started.

 

[bimmer1980]

Let's define what type of metal work.....

Is it welding and metal fabrication or more on the machining end of things?

Metal Fab -- welding various pieces of metal together -- Could be done as simply as cutting and bolting or cutting and welding. A variety of tools could do this.. all depends on how much you want to spend....

--4.5" Angle Grinder with a cut off wheel and grinding discs -- $100 or less...
Or upgrade to a metal abrasive chop saw, but will still need the grinder -- $250.

Then to stick the two pieces together, you can look at a flux core welder, a stick welder or go all out and get a gas mig welder.... $150 up to over $2000.....

Of course, there are a variety of things you could have, but with a grinder and a basic welder, you could do a fair amount.... Bigger tools just make things handier and easier...

On the machining spectrum of things, you would need a mill and a lathe... Frankly, I would see how well he takes to this before going down this path.

If he is really into it and you want to learn some machining as well, take a night votech class and then see about sourcing some used equipment.....

I had a really good welding class when I was in high school and we did a ton of projects. Many of the projects I was able to take home and still have.

Depending on the school, you may be able to buy the material for him and then he could build all sorts of things for your shop -- think -- welding table, work table, shelf, brackets, etc.

My high school class set me up for then buying equipment while in college and after.

Regardless, I hope he really enjoys it and makes the most of it!!!!!

 

[SouperGrover]

@schor Thanks for your comments. Some of those items are out of my budget at this stage. If he sticks with it I think it will be workth spending the moeny later.

@bimmer1980 That's a good question and one he is unable to define himself at this point. The only thing I know they are going to make so far is a drill gauge (kinda curious to see how the instructor is going to get 20 students to drill 20 different sized holes with 1 drill press...). He has told me some of his friends have made things like a Batman symbol. But I don't know specifically what they will be making. All I can remember he told me that they have is a drill press, lathe and a CNC machine. But I know they have a lot more than that.

I am definitely going to encourage him to make stuff we can use around the shop. That drill gauge will be perfect for starters.

I was pleasantly surprised, and very excited, when I found out he chose machine shop as one of his electives. He's never shown any interest in helping me build stuff around the house, so I was happy to see him get into something like this. And will do anything I can to keep his interest going.

 

[Fueler]

It won't hurt to look ahead and study up but wait and see if he sticks with it.
Sometimes Dad is excited but that turns the kid in a different direction.

At the moment he sees the glitter and not so much the journey that must be made on the way to being a metal guy.
Not unlike wood...which I can't seem to get along with.

You might contact the instructor on the side and see if he will give you the peanut tour and insight into his criteria over the 4 years.

 

[St-rider]

It's good to hear there is still a high school machine shop class to take.

 

[SouperGrover]

@Fueler

Definitely in the brainstorming and researching phase right now. Hell I haven't even gotten the WOODSHOP built yet. But that's kinda why I wanted to think about it now to see if I could plan ahead a bit.

I'm definitely interested to see how he takes to it once the projects really start. He was the kind of kid who would bust open a new Lego set and build what he wanted first before he even looked at the plans. I'm hoping that kind of thinking will come out with some sort of real world building materials at some point.

Great idea on contacting the instructor. I might have to do that once they start building stuff

 

[SouperGrover]

It's good to hear there is still a high scholl machine shop class to take.

So true. My wife is a teacher and schools keep dropping things that aren't math/language/science related. Because schools are measured and funded based on test scores. And there is no test score that measures musicianship or artistic ability or craftsmanship. Don't get me started...

The area we are in actually has tons of automotive shops, lots of fabrication, and other machining type work. I'm glad to hear they still have it at the school, too

 

[Hephaestus29]

Saw dust in oil isn't going to be very good
either.

 

[Falcon67]

(kinda curious to see how the instructor is going to get 20 students to drill 20 different sized holes with 1 drill press...).

LOL. My Jr High metal shop teacher was an ex-Marine drill sergeant. Drop and give me 20 was a daily deal.

EVERYBODY LINE UP. WHATS your NUMBER! REMEMBER your NUMBER! WHAT DRILL DO WE START WITH, SOUND OFF! ANYBODY GETS OUT OF LINE, IT'S 20. #1 STEP TO THE PRESS, MAKE YOUR HOLE! PROCEED!

 

[matt_i]

I started with a horizontal bandsaw and a welder. My Dad had a drill press. Within a couple of years I had a Bridgeport and an old Atlas lathe in the garage.

With metalworking tools you tend to become sort of a closet rigger along the way. And oh yeah, they usually run on 3 phase power, so you get to solve some practical electrical problems too. The advice to keep sawdust producing tools away from oiled metalworking machines is good.

Free advice: your first machines should be "all there" in complete working order. After that you can acquire project machines, and use the good ones to make parts.

Also free advice: don't be fooled into "benchtop machinery" that avoids the rigging step above. Machine tools are made rigid (meaning good) by simple mass.

I'd start with the above advice and go as far as the school shop and maker spaces can take you. After that if he's still got the bug, you might want to get some machines to work with at home.

I would also do some research on the various machining forums. Literally years worth of reading and study are possible there.

 

[SouperGrover]

LOL. My Jr High metal shop teacher was an ex-Marine drill sergeant. Drop and give me 20 was a daily deal.

EVERYBODY LINE UP. WHATS your NUMBER! REMEMBER your NUMBER! WHAT DRILL DO WE START WITH, SOUND OFF! ANYBODY GETS OUT OF LINE, IT'S 20. #1 STEP TO THE PRESS, MAKE YOUR HOLE! PROCEED!

LOL. I'm picturing something more like the scene of the marching faceless kids from the Another Brick In the Wall pt.2 sequence

 

[SouperGrover]

I started with a horizontal bandsaw and a welder. My Dad had a drill press. Within a couple of years I had a Bridgeport and an old Atlas lathe in the garage.

With metalworking tools you tend to become sort of a closet rigger along the way. And oh yeah, they usually run on 3 phase power, so you get to solve some practical electrical problems too. The advice to keep sawdust producing tools away from oiled metalworking machines is good.

Free advice: your first machines should be "all there" in complete working order. After that you can acquire project machines, and use the good ones to make parts.

Also free advice: don't be fooled into "benchtop machinery" that avoids the rigging step above. Machine tools are made rigid (meaning good) by simple mass.

I'd start with the above advice and go as far as the school shop and maker spaces can take you. After that if he's still got the bug, you might want to get some machines to work with at home.

I would also do some research on the various machining forums. Literally years worth of reading and study are possible there.

Great advice, thanks! Your comment about 3 phase power is particularly concerning. We have a bit of a power issue in our garage. we are in a townhouse complex and only get 1 20 amp circuit shared between 2-3 garages. I don't know much about electricity either (although I've learned quite a bit recently) but "3 phase power" sounds like something we won't be able to get. Is that a show stopper?

 

[Zeke]

You'd be surprised at the similarities in woodworking and metalworking. The both require layout. They both require cutting. While tools and techniques can differ, there is some crossover. After all, a try square is a try square. So is a tape measure.

You can do a lot of light sheet metal work in a wood shop. You can do some steel builds of carts and benches. I use a miter saw on steel with a steel cutting blade. You can do the same with other power tools. Do check on blade speeds, etc.

Not all metalworking involves machining.

 

[SweetD]

I wish our high school still offered metal / wood shop for my kids. I hope you and your son really enjoy his coursework!

 

[Ainsley]

Your drill press will do cross over duty along with some cordless hand tools but most of the other large machines will be metal or wood specific.
I work on projects in my shop that involve both wood and metal and don't have any serious problems with "cross contamination".
Check out my journal and you can see some of the tools I use.
I do have a small welding table dedicated to dirty metalwork which may be a good early project for your son to get into welding.

 

[Falcon67]

Yea, but those were also days that if you generated discipline issues at school that required "intervention" you could damn well expect another "intervention" when you got home.

In opposition to some advice above - bench top machines can turn out very good work and may be had for reasonable money. If he/you outgrow any machine tool, I can pretty much guarantee that you can move it quick. My first mill was a HF mini-mill. I didn't have it long before I figured I needed something a lot larger. Not having experience, that show it goes. I was able to sell the small mill for not too much of a discount and moved it in days. I have a bench top lathe that can hold .001 in aluminum easy. I needed more "oomph" and this year moved up to a 12x36. I kept the 9x20, it's just too dang handy.

The only thing in the shop that is 3 phase is the mill/drill and that issue was easily solved with a VFD converter. Everything else is 240 or 120 single phase, even the big lathe. Almost all of the smaller machine tools are going to be 120V items. 3 phase items are industrial. Yes, usually go for pennies/lb but very, very few are "home shop" size.

You're in CA, you may well have a better choice in used tools than some. "3 phase USA machine tool" here means either something huge with a 440v motor, or a rusted thing that's been pushed outside years ago.

 

[SouperGrover]

You'd be surprised at the similarities in woodworking and metalworking. The both require layout. They both require cutting. While tools and techniques can differ, there is some crossover. After all, a try square is a try square. So is a tape measure.

You can do a lot of light sheet metal work in a wood shop. You can do some steel builds of carts and benches. I use a miter saw on steel with a steel cutting blade. You can do the same with other power tools. Do check on blade speeds, etc.

Not all metalworking involves machining.

Thanks, Zeke. I figured I could probably have SOME crossover. Glad to hear you do in your shop.

 

[SouperGrover]

I wish our high school still offered metal / wood shop for my kids. I hope you and your son really enjoy his coursework!

Thanks, SweetD! He's still young (just turned 14 today) so he has NO idea what he wants to do in the future. But I've always told him no matter what he chooses to be interested in I will encourage him and help him along his journey.

 

[ZRX61]

Good location, Chatsworth is awash with machine shops. Always over there getting stuff made up for aircraft etc.

 

[SouperGrover]

Your drill press will do cross over duty along with some cordless hand tools but most of the other large machines will be metal or wood specific.
I work on projects in my shop that involve both wood and metal and don't have any serious problems with "cross contamination".
Check out my journal and you can see some of the tools I use.
I do have a small welding table dedicated to dirty metalwork which may be a good early project for your son to get into welding.

Thanks, Ainsley. I'll look into your stuff for some ideas!

 

[SouperGrover]

Yea, but those were also days that if you generated discipline issues at school that required "intervention" you could damn well expect another "intervention" when you got home.

In opposition to some advice above - bench top machines can turn out very good work and may be had for reasonable money. If he/you outgrow any machine tool, I can pretty much guarantee that you can move it quick. My first mill was a HF mini-mill. I didn't have it long before I figured I needed something a lot larger. Not having experience, that show it goes. I was able to sell the small mill for not too much of a discount and moved it in days. I have a bench top lathe that can hold .001 in aluminum easy. I needed more "oomph" and this year moved up to a 12x36. I kept the 9x20, it's just too dang handy.

The only thing in the shop that is 3 phase is the mill/drill and that issue was easily solved with a VFD converter. Everything else is 240 or 120 single phase, even the big lathe. Almost all of the smaller machine tools are going to be 120V items. 3 phase items are industrial. Yes, usually go for pennies/lb but very, very few are "home shop" size.

You're in CA, you may well have a better choice in used tools than some. "3 phase USA machine tool" here means either something huge with a 440v motor, or a rusted thing that's been pushed outside years ago.

Thanks, Falcon67. Your words are encouraging. IF we go down this road, we will start out small scale and upgrade as our interests grow.

 

[ZRX61]

Guy I know owns a HUGE manufacturing facility there, called Sensor Systems. Jalenko is a good machine shop... & there's always the guys at Icon who do the Bronco's & FJ's etc.

 

[crewchief888]

You'd be surprised at the similarities in woodworking and metalworking. The both require layout. They both require cutting. While tools and techniques can differ, there is some crossover. After all, a try square is a try square. So is a tape measure.

You can do a lot of light sheet metal work in a wood shop. You can do some steel builds of carts and benches. I use a miter saw on steel with a steel cutting blade. You can do the same with other power tools. Do check on blade speeds, etc.

Not all metalworking involves machining.

^^ agreed

attention to detail is key...

 

[larry_g]

I suggest that you slow down a bit and let the boy tell you what is needed. Talk with the instructor, see what they intend to do in the next 4 years. Your boy is learning here so he doesn't need the biggest and the best. As much as I would not recommend a 3 in 1 machine for real work, it might be the right machine for this instance. You can do milling, lathe, and drill press work. You learn the basics and tooling you buy will move on to the next machine you buy.

What outside of this does you boy have interest in. Will the metalworking support other interests like RC models, gocarts, bicycles? This may dictate the machines he may want. Many have set up a machine shop in a bedroom or closet. They just have to understand the size of stuff they are making. Is he a math wizard? A good machinist is also one who is proficient with math and trig.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[75gmck25]

If your son finds he likes this type of work, ask his school counselor what he needs to take to prepare for a college degree in mechanical engineering.

My son graduated in ME in 2012 and I continue to be surprised at the variety of work he had in school and the jobs he has had since then. Everyone's project in college seemed to have some ME requirement, and he was paid both hourly rate and piece rate to do the mechanical part of various projects. He also joined the college Formula SAE race team for gas engine vehicles, built parts for the solar car team, and is now working as an adviser to the school's electric car team.

It may also interest some of the GJ folks that my son's full time job is for a 3D printer company that produces parts layered with Kevlar and carbon fiber so that they are approximately the strength of aircraft aluminum. Some customers use the 3D printed part as is, but others build multiple prototypes before going into final production of a bracket, brace, or some other part of an assembly. Just think of 3D printing 2 or 3 different variations of a bracket or mount when you are trying to figure out how to fit an engine into a hot rod or add on a wing or air dam. You do need to have CAD/CAM software like SolidWorks to design the part, but most students learn that as part of their ME program.

Bruce

 

[theoldwizard1]

Saw dust in oil isn't going to be very good either.

And grit from grinding is not good on raw wood.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Unless you are going to go with a mini-lathe and/or a mini-mill, which are fine for working in plastic or aluminum, you likely will not have enough room for both shops. Besides a drill press, lathe and/or a mill you are going to need

• metal band saw
• disc and band/belt sander dedicated to metal work
• press w/brake
• sheet metal shear
• sheet metal brake/finger brake

 

[larry_g]

Unless you are going to go with a mini-lathe and/or a mini-mill, which are fine for working in plastic or aluminum, you likely will not have enough room for both shops. Besides a drill press, lathe and/or a mill you are going to need

• metal band saw
• disc and band/belt sander dedicated to metal work
• press w/brake
• sheet metal shear
• sheet metal brake/finger brake

You are getting way out there wizard. This is a learning opportunity for the OP and his son, not a shop going into production. They need a rowboat, not a ship.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[kazlx]

You can do a lot with a little:

-Good vise
-angle grinder with cut offs/flaps/wire wheel
-Files
-HF bandsaws are cheap and are handy even in a wood shop. I cut all kinds of stupid stuff with mine.
-squares
-maybe a welder
-drill press can easily be dual purpose

You guys might be able to find a community college class or something to do together. Would be fun to spend time together and you can both learn something . Plus it would give your son a chance to learn what he's interested in.

 

[Ainsley]

-Good vise
-angle grinder with cut offs/flaps/wire wheel
-HF bandsaws are cheap and are handy even in a wood shop.

The HF bandsaw is a great addition to any shop! I wouldn't be without mine!

 

[Falcon67]

And grit from grinding is not good on raw wood.

LOL - getting sawdust mixed with Tap Magic out of the mill table is a chore.

 

[SouperGrover]

What outside of this does you boy have interest in. Will the metalworking support other interests like RC models, gocarts, bicycles? This may dictate the machines he may want. Many have set up a machine shop in a bedroom or closet. They just have to understand the size of stuff they are making. Is he a math wizard? A good machinist is also one who is proficient with math and trig.

He has fallen into the typical video game/always connected trap like so many these days. Video games are his number one, followed by music (he doesn't play anything yet but he loves listening to music and learning about different artists). He used to love Lego but has kind of outgrown them for now. I do see him being some kind of engineer for sure. He loves science. Bad news is he is in Algebra I this year and HATES it (I did, too until I was a junior and then math became one of my favorite subjects). So, when he told me he wanted to take machine shop I was super excited. And I'm trying to do what I can to encourage that and hopefully he will find something he loves.

We've always entertained the idea of doing some Steampunk gear and I think machining would be a big part of that design.

 

[SouperGrover]

If your son finds he likes this type of work, ask his school counselor what he needs to take to prepare for a college degree in mechanical engineering.

My son graduated in ME in 2012 and I continue to be surprised at the variety of work he had in school and the jobs he has had since then. Everyone's project in college seemed to have some ME requirement, and he was paid both hourly rate and piece rate to do the mechanical part of various projects. He also joined the college Formula SAE race team for gas engine vehicles, built parts for the solar car team, and is now working as an adviser to the school's electric car team.

Mechanical Engineering is such a versatile degree and I bet he would find something he likes down that path. But, he hasn't even drilled his first hole yet. School just started and he just passed his shop safety test to be able to do the work. This may go nowhere. I'm just trying to help him find something he loves to do.

 

[ZRX61]

If he hates Algebra 1 he better get used to it if there's a ME BSc in his future. Just wait until he gets into linear equations & all that good stuff.

Calculus is just algebra that moves

 

[SouperGrover]

You can do a lot with a little:

-Good vise
-angle grinder with cut offs/flaps/wire wheel
-Files
-HF bandsaws are cheap and are handy even in a wood shop. I cut all kinds of stupid stuff with mine.
-squares
-maybe a welder
-drill press can easily be dual purpose

You guys might be able to find a community college class or something to do together. Would be fun to spend time together and you can both learn something . Plus it would give your son a chance to learn what he's interested in.

This sounds like a good list to me. I'm getting into woodworking myself (and I''m committed for sure). He wants to do some woodworking, too, but seems like he wants to do metalwork as well. I haven't even hammered in the first nail of my shop yet, so I just started wondering if I should think a little ahead and see what it would take to add metal into the mix at some point.

Thanks, everyone, for your input.

 

[matt_i]

The practice of visualizing things, making drawings with dimensions that reflect how they fit together is very much the same in both wood and metalwork. Drawing things up on paper and then building the design into reality is an awesome learning opportunity. All of those things (details) you didn't know about or forgot eventually come to light as one builds. Obviously practicing this skill helps. As you know, an engineering degree is very close to a math degree, so it helps to think quantitatively.

 

[gtae07]

Bad news is he is in Algebra I this year and HATES it (I did, too until I was a junior and then math became one of my favorite subjects).

If he plans to do engineering, he'll need a solid algebra foundation; you use it and trig a lot. Calculus, not so much once you're out of school (but that varies by field).

If he's hating it this year, chances are that the problem is the way math is usually taught--that is, it's presented in a way that makes a lot of sense if you already know the material and are trying to lay it all out as concisely and "rigorously" as possible. Most people don't actually learn very well that way; the ones that do seem to be the ones who go on to be professors, thus perpetuating the problem. Try to find other resources that teach the material differently (e.g. Khan Academy).

I firmly believe that most people can learn and understand calculus, physics, etc. if they were just taught in the right way. Of course, building up a "mystique" of these subjects being really hard doesn't help, and has been shown to be detrimental to people actually doing well.

 

[MushCreek]

If you get lucky, you might be able to find a 14" vertical bandsaw with a high-low range. Delta made them, as well as some others. They have a two speed gear box, with the low range for metal; the high range for wood. Same thing with a drill press; some are only 4 or 5 speed, and much too fast for all but small drills, but others will have like 16 speeds, and drop into a low enough range for metal work.

Mills and lathes are generally too big and heavy for your shop, and 'real' ones will likely be 3 phase. You can get a phase converter, but you will still need 240 volt- not sure if you have that. Some lathes can pretty easily take another motor, so you can find a 120V motor. Mills generally have a very specific motor, and 120V ones are rarer than hen's teeth. I actually had an old Bridgeport mill with a factory 120V single phase motor.

 

[Zeke]

AFA band saws go I sold off 2, one that was converted to metal cutting. I kept a wood cutting band saw and bought a hand held band saw. If you buy or make a stand for that they are very useful. And with the blade at a 45º throat size is not an issue for long stock.