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Help a noob with raising garage ceiling

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Iceman22

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Central NY
If you have a vaulted ceiling in your living room then that steel beam is the ridge beam for your roof over the vault.
It is common to have a ridge beam over a vaulted ceiling living room and conventual ridge board framing over the bed rooms.

Whoops! Should have been more clear. My response was 2 parts didn't come across that way. I was speaking about the I beam to reference the fact I believe the wall that the garage shares with the house is load bearing. I have regular ceilings in the living room with the I-beam above the sheetrock.

That being said you answered the second half of my question that the new system would then be a ridgebeam roof style

I am guessing what your carpenter would do is put a beam under the current ridge board with temporary supports.
The beam may be steel or double or triple 2 x's depending on his preference.
Then permanent supports for the new beam ends are put in the left and right walls.

He will need to put Simson connectors at the current rafter/roof board joint and the rafter/top plate joint because those joints will change from compression to tension when the joists are removed.

At this point the weight of your roof is supported by the new beam and it's end posts and the joists and those verticals hanging down to them can be removed.

But get a guy with framing experience, not just a low cost nail pounder.
You are reversing the push and pull of the whole roof assembly and you need a guy that understands that.

So from what I gather I can "salvage" a lot of the existing roof structure if done correctly?
 
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Iceman22

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So I'm just sitting here brain storming based off all your guys awesome previous responses and I'm wondering if what I see in my mind makes any sense/is possible?


From what I gather a structural ridgebeam could be installed under the current one and the boards that run the depth of the garage could be cut out as long as the the ridgebeam is properly supported at both ends.


That being said is it possible to do what I would call a shallow dormer off the front and back side to gain some ceiling height as I get closer to my front and back walls? Maybe I'll be fine with just what cutting out the current boards would get me. But, if not I want to have a plan b. Attached below is a picture what I'm trying to explain.

c7f192bf0dfe22edb5378708c87fe464.jpg

Also is a picture I drew myself. Left side of the pic is to illustrate the side view of my garage with regards to how my ceiling height changes as you go from the outside wall towards the center. (I'm sure more of you guys didn't need this but it's really for me to have one of you comment that I understand [or don't understand] what's going on....) Right side is to illustrate the possible dormer idea?

148a85c17063684d9118ce4c44017b38.jpg


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Denwood

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Your garage is perfect for a ridge beam. You can remove all of your truss ties once the ridge beam is in place, and supported at both ends. Likely three LVLs, about $800 ... mine were spec'd (for free) and delivered by our local truss manufacturer. Spray foam the roof deck underside, drywall and you've got a full vault with 12'3" at your 10ft mark, and about a foot less then your current peak (used by the ridge beam). Other than your truss ties and ceiling, nothing else is touched. Take a few minutes and look over page 1.

A dormer with ridge beam would be no problem...but likely not needed as you'd have 11' height at 16' width with just the ridge beam.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263351

Note that you can likely leave loft areas at each end if you like. Makes for great storage. The actual ridge and cross beam install in my shop only took a few hours. Definitely a summer project if you have snow load issues!

These pics pretty much illustrate:

ridge2.jpg


ridge3.jpg
 
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Orionrising

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that looks like it is already set with a ridgebeam is setup, though it may need joist retained as ties. would need a bunch of measuring and span and rafter tables to figure it out. Those 2x4 appear to be more holding up overspaned rafters.
 

Denwood

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Orion, a Ridge Board is not a Ridge Beam.

A ridge board simply connects the roof stringers. Without truss ties (which form the bottom of the load triangle) any load would spread the walls and eventually collapse.

A ridge beam on the other hand supports much of the roof load, requires no truss ties, but must be engineered to take this load, and carry it at both ends to the ground. So instead of a single 2x6 or 2x8 (which for sure is just a ridge board), a ridge beam spanning 24 ft would be in the range of 14" high and 5" wide to take roof load..depending on climate.

Iceman, if you use LVLs you can likely build them in place (laminate 2.5" widths) which makes it a lot easier to get them in place. My brother and I plus a few straps (for safety) is all that was required.
 
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bczygan

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DETROIT! Arsenal of Scrappers
So I'm just sitting here brain storming based off all your guys awesome previous responses and I'm wondering if what I see in my mind makes any sense/is possible?


From what I gather a structural ridgebeam could be installed under the current one and the boards that run the depth of the garage could be cut out as long as the the ridgebeam is properly supported at both ends.


That being said is it possible to do what I would call a shallow dormer off the front and back side to gain some ceiling height as I get closer to my front and back walls? Maybe I'll be fine with just what cutting out the current boards would get me. But, if not I want to have a plan b. Attached below is a picture what I'm trying to explain.

c7f192bf0dfe22edb5378708c87fe464.jpg

Also is a picture I drew myself. Left side of the pic is to illustrate the side view of my garage with regards to how my ceiling height changes as you go from the outside wall towards the center. (I'm sure more of you guys didn't need this but it's really for me to have one of you comment that I understand [or don't understand] what's going on....) Right side is to illustrate the possible dormer idea?

148a85c17063684d9118ce4c44017b38.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is a good, if slightly convoluted solution, and it will need a permit since outside work is done.

I would also do it on the back sice and full width to create the most volume.

Plus I would change to one large and taller door.
 

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happy2rv

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Since you have a stick built roof, you have a few options to modify in place as others have suggested. However, unless you're planning to modify your garage door, there will b an issue with using a lift for vehicle storage.

A standard garage door at 7 or 8' should open above the lift which could work for pulling a car onto the lift, lowering the door, and then raising the lift to work on the car. But once the car is in the air, raising the door will hit the car on the lift. At 22' depth, you won't have enough room to push the lift forward to clear. You could go to a roll up door like they use on self-storage units or commercial warehouses, but you probably can't match the other door that way.

Hopefully I didn't miss where you already addressed this...

I also agree with others, I'm not sure the math works out. If you're 5/12 pitch, assuming you had no cross ties and vaulted the ceiling, just the rafters would be at 15 inches higher than your existing wall height 3 feet from the outside wall. If your existing ceiling height is less than 10 1/2 feet, it might not be enough.

Looking at the pictures, it looks like the garage is the only thing on that end of the house. In other words it doesn't appear that there is living space behind the garage. If that's the case, it should be possible, although still somewhat disruptive and expensive, to remove the roof over the garage, build the walls taller and add a new roof. Kind of the reverse of what you appear to have now, a step up in the roof over the garage...
 

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kbs2244

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We haven't addressed the door track issue.

I would suggest they be modified to follow the inside slope of the roof.
You can modify the tracks with a hack saw for the new angle.
But you will need new springs and spindles.
 

keith k

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If all you're planning to put on the top of the 4-poster is a sports car (which I assume is not very tall...), have you done the math to confirm you need to raise the garage ceiling?

I have about 10'6" of ceiling height, and have no trouble stacking two "regular" cars. But if you're trying to get a big pickup or SUV underneath, that probably won't work.
 

Orionrising

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hmm looking at your outdoor photos... you already have a multicourse high foundation... you could go down, pull the floor, and lower the driveway...
 

Orionrising

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Orion, a Ridge Board is not a Ridge Beam.

A ridge board simply connects the roof stringers. Without truss ties (which form the bottom of the load triangle) any load would spread the walls and eventually collapse.

A ridge beam on the other hand supports much of the roof load, requires no truss ties, but must be engineered to take this load, and carry it at both ends to the ground. So instead of a single 2x6 or 2x8 (which for sure is just a ridge board), a ridge beam spanning 24 ft would be in the range of 14" high and 5" wide to take roof load..depending on climate.

Iceman, if you use LVLs you can likely build them in place (laminate 2.5" widths) which makes it a lot easier to get them in place. My brother and I plus a few straps (for safety) is all that was required.


yes, but the need depends on roof slope, which I believe he though was 5:12 which is steeper then code requirements for a beam @ 3:12 normal.

depending on his rafter size and snow loads he could possible use raised rafter ties. I am not finding a table for that, so he would probably need an engineer to run that calc.

assuming his sports car is 4 feet or so high, he only needs to gain ~ 1-2 feet to fit 7 or 8 feet clear under the lift.

https://weyerhaeuser.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/207291947-Ridge-Beam-vs-Ridge-Board-
 
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Orionrising

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ahh did find a table for that:

http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/Phoenix2006/Phoenix_IRC/PDFs/Chapter%208_Roof-Ceiling%20Construction.pdf

page 263 if the snow loads work for your location: rafter tie span table and adjustment factor at the bottom for height of rater tie about wall plates.

Pg 266 for rater tie nailing requirements.

Note: this is an excerpt from the 2006 IRC, you should look to whatever newer version is in force in your area for the current tables.


further edit:

after playing with those span tables, if it worked you would probably end up with a bunch of expensive grade 20' 2x12s as rafter ties, least cost to open one bay would probably be a 10' ridge beam of 3 2x12s if 70lb gsl http://www.southernpine.com/app/uploads/SS_15-20L.pdf
a post at the side wall, and a LVL spanning to open up one bay/
 
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Denwood

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You want a minimum of 12ft or so of ridge to make sure there is space for lift columns and opening car/truck doors on the hoist.

My solution for the door was an insulated roll up. In this situation, the door rails could be mod'd to hug the roof..so no need for a roll up.
 

happy2rv

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I didn't think of modifying the existing door to follow the ceiling. However, that will cut into the space gained by removing the cross ties. It would lower the "ceiling" along the entire path of the door at least 4-6" which may be OK, but it still sounds to me like the math doesn't add up for his stated desire to have 12' clearance 3' from the front wall.
 

Orionrising

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he wants that but does he need it?

he has 10 feet of height currently, and wants to store a sportscar. even the higher lifts only go to 7' or so, so he already almost has 3 feet of clearance....

2 feet more clearance 3 feet in would be roughly 5 feet of clearance 16 feet long, far more than is needed for any sportscar.
 

padroo

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I didn't read every post but it looks like there is a lot of fill dirt under your garage floor. You could lower your garage floor and adjust your driveway to line up with your new floor and lower your doors.
 

Falcon67

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>So those aren't trusses? (please forgive my stupidity)

No. Hand cut rafters, ridge board and ceiling joists.
 
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Iceman22

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Hey guys,



It's been a couple days and figured I would give an update since I finally caught a night off. All of your helpful input and willingness to explain things to me is greatly appreciated. I actually reached out to two different contractors about raising the roof back on the 23rd. Had scheduled appointments to have them walk the property and then on Wednesday the Mrs. blind-sided me with what I like to call an "so I was thinking...." idea.



She mentioned she had day dreamed at work that the garage could be turned into a master on-suite and that a new garage could be built on the open lot. We currently have a 2bedroom home and neither of us desire children so I never really gave any thought to adding a 3rd bedroom. However, she said it would be the perfect way to gain a larger master bedroom and relocate her craft room + my treadmill from the unfinished basement basement to the current guest room. I think she's sick of working downstairs in the winter months :p



So her proposed lay out looks something like this... Just to give you a frame of reference. The beverage bar is something that is built into the garage wall and accessible from the living room so that has to stay but wouldn't be terribly difficult to work around. The current entry door from the garage to the house is in the upper left 90 of the overall rectangle on her layout. new entry would be shifted 8ft to the right to create a hallway so that the new master bedroom wasn't directly off the living room/kitchen



316f4324c405487b2162927928f9ca70.jpg



As always everything will come down to cost. If I can give her this and have it not cripple my budge then of course I'll want to make her happy. Plus it would give me the opportunity to start from scratch on a new garage. If not, then i'' continue to peruse just raising the garage ceiling. Wish I had an idea of what this will run but I'm sure I'll find out in the coming two weeks when quotes start rolling in. For now, I guess this means we're in limbo.
 

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Voi

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The Mrs. blind-sided me with what I like to call an "so I was thinking...." idea.

For now, I guess this means we're in limbo.

Some thoughts:

1) My wife also puts us in limbo with these sorts of things when it comes to home/garage improvement.

2) Wouldn't the bedroom conversion plus new garage give you a similar tax hit as you mentioned when someone suggested selling your current home and buying what you wanted?

3) Not to confuse matters further, but would the shed dormer location that would be suitable to a lift also work with the possible bedroom conversion?

Vaulted ceilings and shed dormers with windows would be nice in a master suite, in case you thought you'd spread this project out over years instead of months.

By the way, that would be a massive bedroom space with 350 square feet, cathedral ceilings and 10' sidewalls. I'd suggest getting an RC helicopter, lol.
 
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Iceman22

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Figured it was time to make another update post and to bounce some price quotes off you guys... I've now gotten 4 out of 5 bids returned to me and they are all more than I was expecting but I'm sure that's how it always goes....

The bid was to turn the 506 sq/ft current attached garage into a bedroom, walk-in closest and bathroom. (See attached pic for a layout). All of the bids include everything as in every bid has the same baseboard, same flooring, same doors etc... only thing not in the bid is a toilet, sink vanity and all hard fixtures in the bathroom as I'd be having them moved over from the master bath we just refinished since ultimately that current space would become the entrance/mud room of the yet to be built attached pole barn.

So far the bids have come in at 26k, 31k, 33k and 45k. I had hoped to keep it under $20,000; especially considering so much of the bathroom material would be moved over but I guess I was ignorant when it comes to pricing.

Being told a decent chunk of the money is coming from the fact I want the floor built up the 2.5' to have the master suite floor level with the rest of the house instead of stepping down. Each contractor pretty much said the same thing: "well, you're pretty much asking me to build a 500sq/ft deck before we actually begin the rest of the work". Apparently it's also not cheap to cut through 10" thick concrete for my HVAC trunk and return line or to run my 4" Sewer line 47ft back to the main stack thats all the way on the other side of the house

Do these numbers seem outrageous for the scope of work? Or are pretty much in line and I just need come to grips with nothing cheap when you can't DIY...

bc2bff59d41023b6466869478361bef1.jpg


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