Help! Contractor Problem/Questions

[BoonKing]

I know no one is an "eLawyer" on here but I'm having a problem with my contractor and I'm wondering if it's normal procedure and is it fixable.

My attached garage on my 1942 circa house was rotted so I had it bid with 3 contractors. It was a flat roof and here in Buffalo that's a no-no with the snow so I wanted the new one gabled. All 3 contractors were BBB A+ rated and were within a few $$$ of each other so I went with the lowest bid. It's a simple 1.5 attached garage...or so I thought. So I accept Contractor #3's bid and we sign a standard contract that spells out 2x6 rafters, no foundation work, 2 service doors, ect. After we sign the papers he says "if you need a fire rated door between the house & garage that's $$ extra. I don't do this for a living and I KNOW I need a fire rated door so why would he think it's an option? He had to move a window and now tells me the price for the window movement doesn't include any inside work, that's up to me...they don't do inside work. Shame on me for not getting things spelled out but WTF? So I have a hole with OSB borded up over it and it's on me to fix it. Great. Ok, fast forward to this weekend when they demo'd the old garage. He points to the wiring and says I need to get an electrician out here because they can't work with the existing wiring passing through the garage! Um...it was THERE when he bid the job and now he wants it moved at an extra cost to me. The existing footings were almost all hollow cinder block so he has to have a guy come out and fill them with cement and install some bolts, an extra charge for me. I have no problem with this and will pay for it because it didn't onclude foundation work but every time he comes out to inspect the job it costs me $$$. When I pushed back at his price for getting this done he cut his price in half and said I was getting it as cost, just like that! He also groaned about he has to install two sheets of 5/8" fire rated drywall between the garage & house to meet code...something he'll have to "eat" and he's doing me a favor. I say again, it's your job to know the building code when you bid a job!

Is this the way things work? I'd cancel the job and pay him just for the demo but it's been 3 days and according to the contract I can't cancel after 3 days. I thought a contract with a price was just that? I'm flexible but c'mon! Any advice?

 

[Steves32]

You went low bid, you got low bid.
The time to ask questions is before the contract is signed, not after.
This guy is going to change-order you to death.
How's the work quality? Besides extras, are you happy with what's being done?
Is he licensed, bonded & insured?
Did he pull permits?
Are their details & exclusions in the contract?
Did you read the contract?

You can cancel after 3 days but not without penalty. You will loose the deposit, all time & materials spent so far & any materials that were special ordered.
He will probably pad the bill to squeeze as much as possible out of you before separation.
It's happened to me a few times but for a different reason. Owner lost job right after we started. I worked with them due to circumstances beyond their control.

If the quality is there, it will be cheaper to eek it out & pay the extras until it's done.

 

[BoonKing]

You went low bid, you got low bid.
The time to ask questions is before the contract is signed, not after.
This guy is going to change-order you to death.
How's the work quality? Besides extras, are you happy with what's being done?
Is he licensed, bonded & insured?
Did he pull permits?
Are their details & exclusions in the contract?
Did you read the contract?

You can cancel after 3 days but not without penalty. You will loose the deposit, all time & materials spent so far & any materials that were special ordered.
He will probably pad the bill to squeeze as much as possible out of you before separation.
It's happened to me a few times but for a different reason. Owner lost job right after we started. I worked with them due to circumstances beyond their control.

If the quality is there, it will be cheaper to eek it out & pay the extras until it's done.

Thanks for the info Steves32. Yea, I'm definitely getting a lesson in NOT what to do here. Like most things I have to learn the hard way. I thought I did as much research as I could and I'm still paying for it. I know he's insured & bonded because the town would not let him get the permits if he wasn't.

As far as the quality of the work...well there really isn't any. The old garage is demo'd and we're at a standstill until the new J bolts are put in and I figure out something to do with the electrical lines running through what use to be the garage. I had hoped we'd get this down inthe 2 weeks I'm off but it's not looking good.

I read the contract and it seems pretty standard. Type of siding, size of rafters, and so on. I swear half of it was how to cancel within the 3 days by sending a certified letter, ect.

 

[blkhonda1991]

how much have you paid him so far? if its only for work completed so far, cut and run. I'm and architect so i'll probably get some people hating on my advice but ALWAYS have drawings that outline the exact scope of work no matter how small the job is. Even doing the drawings yourself or even just a narrative outlining the scope of work you want completed will save many headaches down the road such as what you are experiencing, it really helps get even pricing when you bid it because they all bid on the same things.

 

[nehog]

... Shame on me for not getting things spelled out but WTF? ...

You buried the answer, but know it already. Any contract needs to specify exactly what each party will do. You didn't get that.

A contract is a meeting of the minds, equitable, and reasonable. You don't (didn't) have a meeting of the minds, it may not be either equitable or reasonable (I can't tell without reading the contract, no one could.)

However, your alternatives are limited. You can hire a lawyer, and try to enforce the contract (won't be likely to succeed), or try to void the contract (you'll probably have to pay liquidated damages for any work already performed, or, whatever.

You and the contractor need to take a deep breath, sit down (without a beer, trust me on that) and discuss what you are getting into.

You are as much at fault as he is, and won't come out smelling like a rose by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

The problem that occurs is that when you bid a job not all things are apparent.
Place yourself as the bidding contractors if you will, Perhaps guy 1 and guy 2 did see these items, Where are they now?
After a while as guy 1 or 2 a Gc decides that he is going to bid the job the same as guy 3 or he is never going to get any work. He bids per the drawings, per what's readily visible and gets the job.
You see the setting in a different way, you feel you are getting hosed, Although it feels that way, you do have to realize that one way or another, seen or unseen the items needed to be done still will all need to be done.
And.
You being the property owner will be the guy paying.

It's unfortunate that the system works in this way, it is part and partial to the bidding process in which the low bidder is rewarded. A thorough estimator never gets a job and gets fired.

In the end, ultimately, you end up paying what the job really would have cost, or you fail inspections. This is why you are getting a daily report upon the costs and outlays, he is letting you realize that he is giving and working with you so you do not become hostile.
Generally this is how projects unfold. I would not get too crazy, just look at your plans your descriptions and your details and if you see it mentioned it should be in contract.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

i think your getting hosed. first its not your job to know the code its his and believe me he does unless its his first job ever........so as far as the 5/8 wall board and fire door he's stiffing you.

the window, come on how can you move a window and not know you will have to do some inside work, he new that and just keep quiet until he got your signature.
if he was reputable he would have brought that up before you signed and would have spelled out what he was going to do and not do.

as far as the electrical, unless it was buried in the wall and there was no way for him to not see it he knew about it, believe me when you bid work and you visit a site you see all those things. you either add some money in the bid for it and don't say anything or you bring it up to make sure the home owner understands.

he's a dirt bag and he's stiffing you for all he can get. he's the type of guy who gives this industry a bad name.

as far as bidding whats on the drawings, yeah that applies to commerical and industrial work. there your bidding to and against people who are in the industry and are in the know. We bid a lot of plan and spec work and you always bid whats shown on the drawings and specifications even if you know it isn't right because if you don't you won't get the work because every one else is doing the same.

but not with a home owner.

 

[blkhonda1991]

i think your getting hosed. first its not your job to know the code its his and believe me he does unless its his first job ever........so as far as the 5/8 wall board and fire door he's stiffing you.

the window, come on how can you move a window and not know you will have to do some inside work, he new that and just keep quiet until he got your signature.
if he was reputable he would have brought that up before you signed and would have spelled out what he was going to do and not do.

as far as the electrical, unless it was buried in the wall and there was no way for him to not see it he knew about it, believe me when you bid work and you visit a site you see all those things. you either add some money in the bid for it and don't say anything or you bring it up to make sure the home owner understands.

he's a dirt bag and he's stiffing you for all he can get. he's the type of guy who gives this industry a bad name.

as far as bidding whats on the drawings, yeah that applies to commerical and industrial work. there your bidding to and against people who are in the industry and are in the know. We bid a lot of plan and spec work and you always bid whats shown on the drawings and specifications even if you know it isn't right because if you don't you won't get the work because every one else is doing the same.

but not with a home owner.

If the home owner provides clear documents the same bidding environment can apply just as it does in commercial construction

 

[mrobins297aaa]

If the home owner provides clear documents the same bidding environment can apply just as it does in commercial construction

yeah i know but I'm not sure the most home owners could even define the scope of work they are relying on the integrity of the contractor to show them so they are always at a disadvantage.

but I agree the more stuff thats spelled out in writing or on the drawings the better it is for everybody.

I especially like it when you guys call me up and ask for something thats not on the drawings........my answers is always the same..."if it isn't on the drawings then there isn't any money in the bid for it, we only bid whats on the drawings nothing more".......lol

 

[blkhonda1991]

yeah i know but I'm not sure the most home owners could even define the scope of work they are relying on the integrity of the contractor to show them so they are always at a disadvantage.

but I agree the more stuff thats spelled out in writing or on the drawings the better it is for everybody.

I especially like it when you guys call me up and ask for something thats not on the drawings........my answers is always the same..."if it isn't on the drawings then there isn't any money in the bid for it, we only bid whats on the drawings nothing more".......lol

thats why us architects love the cover your *** notes we add to drawings sometimes it does come back to bite the contractor in the *** if they do omit something

 

[mrobins297aaa]

lol........thats why the spec books on most jobs today are thicker than a phone book.
everything you ever been burned on is cover in there.....lol

Thats why our drawings don't come back "approved" any more. they just say "reviewed for compliance with the contract documents"

I really don't have any issues with you guys and i think for the most part your doing your best even when the owner doesn't want to pay you to do the job properly.

 

[nehog]

The problem that occurs is that when you bid a job not all things are apparent...

Basically, anyone who'd bid a job without having proper written specifications is not competent to do the job. When the contractor came through and wrote things up, those notes should have been used to create the contract's specifications page(s).

I have to wonder what the contract says outside the boilerplate (the specifications for the actual work to be done...)

 

[70chevellegsp]

I manage a residential construction company (have a business/financial backround in the construction industry, not a worker), and have a few questions. 1) Did the contractor not have to get a building permit? 2) Along with that, did he not have to submit drawings for approval (including specs on fire doors and drywall?) 3) Did you just compare the prices of the contract, or did you compare what you were getting from each?

My company has a detailed contract/spec sheet and calls out specifically that we are responsible for getting the building permit and will complete the necessary drawings. If our drawings don't comply, we need to revise them and resubmit before we can get a permit. Our contract is approximately 22 pages long, of which most is details of the materials, scope of work, items that are included, along with items that are specifically excluded. Some people feel more comfortable with a one page contract document that you buy in a bulkpack at Walmart, but they can only do so much. If it were me, I'd assess the work done and how much I've paid so far and see if you can move on to another contractor that will give you what you need and not a headache that will keep on giving for years to come. Again, I don't know the codes in your area, but where I live, you can have a heck of time selling your home if you don't have occupancy permits for work done on the house. The occupancy permit is the end product of your building permit when your project is completed. A lot people aren't aware of this in my area. Good luck to you.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

Basically, anyone who'd bid a job without having proper written specifications is not competent to do the job. When the contractor came through and wrote things up, those notes should have been used to create the contract's specifications page(s).

I have to wonder what the contract says outside the boilerplate (the specifications for the actual work to be done...)

Keep in mind, this is a small lightly budgeted job. The investigation process on this project was most likely done by the home owner. The drawings may or may not represent the site or details acurately.
In many cases on small remodels or small renovations the drawings are basic and poor, in chicago most jobs are inspected per in field verification, they do not have the resources to ponder tens of thousands of small add on projects at the city plan desk.

On many occassions home owners do not even let you into the site to view the job or you may have a crawl space with a 6 inch height that the work is in. In cases such as this you cover the quote with protective wording describing said situation. If you can't get in there to see it say so and describe the possible unforeseen scenario.

When you bid work you qualify out certain trouble some aspects of the build situation.

An example is his description of how the foundation is being dealt with, he qualified that it is an un foreseen situation that may require more funds if the situation is revealed as unfavorable.

There will be unforeseen items, the idea is to communicate what the items may be and to understand how they will be dealt with. There will be items that require added funding.
To panic in that situation and stop the job and become tantric halting all progress and litigating is not the answer.

The best forward pro active and progressive way to go about this is to keep the lines of communication open and unspoiled, clear and unimpassioned communication is essential towards good smooth progress.

Read through the specs and documents to determine whether items are clear cut and defined.

In the case that these items are not clear cut and defined it can only be said that if you let a project out for bid entertained estimates and selected a contractor using poor parameters of communication, then you are suffering from a situation of your own creation.
While this may sound cruel it is true, if these items are not spelled out for a contractor to peruse in simple language, do not readily expect a Judge to see them and motion in your favor either.

In this environment less than favorable drawings are becoming the norm, you will either learn how to function in the environment and protect yourself from discrepancies or close up and sit in the shop while the bills continue to push through the mail slot.

 

[blue dog]

I do not really do the kinds of jobs outlined by the op, but what i will tell you is that my contracts will state everything that i will do as well as all the things that are not covered in my contract, this is just as important.

 

[Steves32]

The 2 red flags for me are the 5/8 drywall & the fire door that should have been on the plans. Are they?

Nobody covers hidden problems & there should have been exclusions for this. Sounds like you got a 1 sentence "Scope of work" contract to me which was vauge & spelled out nothing. I wonder what the other bids looked like?.

 

[BoonKing]

The 2 red flags for me are the 5/8 drywall & the fire door that should have been on the plans. Are they?

Nobody covers hidden problems & there should have been exclusions for this. Sounds like you got a 1 sentence "Scope of work" contract to me which was vauge & spelled out nothing. I wonder what the other bids looked like?.

Code here in Erie County NY says 2 sheets of 5/8" fire rated drywall and a 45 min rated fire door between the garage & residential space. Both are on the drawing.

The other bids were so-so. #2 was as vague as the guy I went with (#3) and #1 was highly detailed to include fixtures and switches but he did not want to gable the roof, he wanted to leave it flat. Contractors #2 & #3 bid both had the roof gabled with a 4/12 pitch so I went with one of them (#3).

Let me say again I don't mind paying a fair price for work and I'm honest and expect people to be honest in return. I realize that some costs can creep up as a project starts but when it costs me money everytime I call the contractor and he acts like he's doing ME a favor I'm starting to wonder how I can trust this guy.

He never spelled out terms of payment and it's not on the contract. He's going to **** when I want to write him a personal check!

 

[Steves32]

Wouldn't hurt to have a sit down with him & address your concerns.

 

[BoonKing]

Wouldn't hurt to have a sit down with him & address your concerns.

I'd like to. I called him earlier to see if he's going to get someome out to cement the j bolts into the footings or shall I call someone and he hasn't called me back yet. That was 8 hrs ago so we'll see.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

He won't **** on the personal check unless it is NSF at which point you have the troubles because you are not allowed to casually NSF big checks without big consequences.

I think you're getting incited and worked up unduly, don't let an internet forum cause you to escalate a situation unduly. Relax and keep a calm presence. If you are being wronged in any way you still have not paid out, which gives you some although not absolute leverage.

 

[BoonKing]

He won't **** on the personal check unless it is NSF at which point you have the troubles because you are not allowed to casually NSF big checks without big consequences.

I think you're getting incited and worked up unduly, don't let an internet forum cause you to escalate a situation unduly. Relax and keep a calm presence. If you are being wronged in any way you still have not paid out, which gives you some although not absolute leverage.

Thanks Frank! I figured if it's not right he'll know the days he comes for the check!

 

[Neuswede]

I guess the alarm for me is that you checked with BBB...OK, they are selling A+ ratings now for $475 and up. Nobody wins on that one. The best sources are your local District Justice office (any claims filed against contractor X?), the local builder supply used by contractors (usually not a box store). Find good sources and shake out info on who you are making payments to. Don't assume they know what they are doing...many DO NOT as referenced by your fire door issue. Code should never be extra...code should be the minimum...period. You did get an insurance binder from Contractor X, and a building permit, didn't you? Sorry if I may have missed that in your thread.

 

[Steves32]

I guess the alarm for me is that you checked with BBB...OK, they are selling A+ ratings now for $475 and up.

Exactly!!! Real sore subject with me.

On checks- I take personal checks everyday. No problem until you NSF me. Then we have a problem.

 

[ddawg16]

Code here in Erie County NY says 2 sheets of 5/8" fire rated drywall and a 45 min rated fire door between the garage & residential space. Both are on the drawing.

The other bids were so-so. #2 was as vague as the guy I went with (#3) and #1 was highly detailed to include fixtures and switches but he did not want to gable the roof, he wanted to leave it flat. Contractors #2 & #3 bid both had the roof gabled with a 4/12 pitch so I went with one of them (#3).

.........

He never spelled out terms of payment and it's not on the contract. He's going to **** when I want to write him a personal check!

If it's on the drawing....he should be doing it.

Related story....when I did my garage a couple of years ago I had a contractor do the foundation. I learned a lot....most of it was my stupidity for not nowing enough.....One of the big issues between us was a bunch of big *** tree roots. I had a tree next to the garage removed...but it still had some deep roots....contractor says he can't continue digging the footings until I remove the roots. I say it's his problem, there is nothing in the contract about anything that might prevent him from digging the footings....

Bottom line...a 'good' contractor will see the potential problems, point them out and have it in the contract.

For us as owners, we need to educate ourselves about the process.

 

[Neuswede]

If it's on the drawing....he should be doing it.


Bottom line...a 'good' contractor will see the potential problems, point them out and have it in the contract.

For us as owners, we need to educate ourselves about the process.

Agreed...If Contractor X isn't building to the submitted drawings, that may serve as a breach of your contract, however loose it actually is, provided the drawing meets code.

Your homework either gets done before the project starts, or while in progress. Yours must begin now. DO NOT NSF a check under any circumstances...it can be a criminal offense depending on the circumstances. If work isn't performed to an acceptable standard or to the agreement, find out what options you have in NY. Discuss it locally with your local small claiims court and see if you have an escrow option. I don't live in NY so I am not familiar with your laws, but some states do provide for arbitration and escrow on disputed claims. Also check with the state's AG office (Attorney General) to 1: find out if there are any complaints filed against Contractor X and 2: Find out more about your rights and the complaint process if it comes to that. In my state, all contractors MUST be on file with the AG office, and must have a state contractor number issued by the AG's office. Again, your state may be different, so check it out.

If you are lucky, you will find a way that Contractor X's poor performance breaches the contract. That is the easiest and cheapest out you will have. Otherwise, you may be in for an expensive battle if you can't work things out to your mutual satisfaction.

 

[darkk]

I have always acted as my own contractor, You learn quick when it costs you money. The absolute first thing that needs to be done at this point in your project is. Get him to your job site, bring your clipboard and your contract. Both of you look at the project you are doing and go over your contract and what needs to be done, what could possibly come up unexpextedly and what you are expecting for your money. Now is the time to discuss what he is and isn't responsible for. As far as the fire door and fire rock, that should have been included if it is code. No extra charge there. Lawyers and ******* matches always cost both parties money they can't afford. Sit down and try to work out an amicable solution. If not,then bring money, lawyers and guns....

 

[BoonKing]

First off I would not under ANY circumstances NSF a check! That's stupid, dishonest and just plain wrong!

Everyone brings up alot of good points and let me tell you I'm getting quite the education. One of the points someone pointed out is the Contractor has a fire door in the drawings because he has to have it to be able to get the permits because it's code here so how can he comeback after the contract is signed and tell me it's an extra $500 because I need a fire rated door? Seems dishonest especially when he knew he needed it because it's on the drawing.