Help diagnose bedroom light problems

[JMartel]

Here's the deal. We moved into our townhouse (built in 2008 so very new), decided we didn't like the bedroom lights that are mounted on the wall.

Get new ones from Home Depot, install them exactly as the old lights were installed (black to black, white to white, ground to ground point), didn't change anything else, and neither of the two lights work. Eventually they do come on after plugging something into a completely different outlet, then they stop working again. Turn on the closet light and they work again. After that, they shut off and haven't worked since. Tried putting in known good bulbs, tried checking connections on both switches, tried putting old wall lights back on, and getting nothing.

I'm getting 120V at the connections between the white/ground wires and the black/ground wires.

Any idea on what to do next? I'm at a loss. I'm more of a mechanical systems guy than electrical.

 

[jhelrey]

Loose connection somewhere down the line. Check the outlet. Sometimes they pull power for them from an outlet.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If you're getting 120v at the fixture wires, then there must be an issue with the fixtures! Can u hook up the fixtures and your meter at the same time? If u do and the meter says 120v but the fixtures dont work, then the only logical explanation is the fixtures!

 

[Zeke]

Remove the wall lights and install a simple pig tail light. No problems, it's the fixture. This is the non electrical guy approach. Forget the ground wire for the moment. Use a standard base and a standard lamp.

Or, use the old lights as the test mule.

Check what you bought.

 

[JMartel]

Already replaced the lights with the previous ones as stated in the OP. do not work.

 

[sparky36000]

tried checking connections on both switches, tried putting old wall lights back on, and getting nothing.

I'm getting 120V at the connections between the white/ground wires and the black/ground wires.
.

You say switches, are there more than one controlling these two lights, or does each light have it's own switch? The 120v from white to ground is also suspect, if you've broken the neutral you could get 120v from neutral to ground but hard to tell without seeing exactly how it's wired. Seems to me something didn't get put back together the way it should have been.

 

[Zeke]

Already replaced the lights with the previous ones as stated in the OP. do not work.

I'm sorry, can you show this old man where you said you reinstalled the old lights and they didn't work?

I guess the ? is did the old lights work before you changed them out? If not, what is the question again?

 

[mm08822]

Sounds like your circuit is being completed by either the closet light or receptacle load. The filaments are probably burning out and that's why you can't repeat the situation by just replacing the bulbs in the new lights. Replace the closet light bulb. Probably works momentarily.

You stated "I'm getting 120V at the connections between the white/ground wires and the black/ground wires." So if you mean that you are reading 120v between neutral and ground, then you have an open neutral somewhere. So your wall lights are in series with the receptacle and/or closet light depending on whether something is plugged in or closet light is on.
Does the closet light work independant of everything else? same for receptacle?

Without a sketch of the cabling between points, it is a little difficult to gie you more info.

 

[JMartel]

I'm sorry, can you show this old man where you said you reinstalled the old lights and they didn't work?

I guess the ? is did the old lights work before you changed them out? If not, what is the question again?

Second paragraph, very end. Everything worked perfectly fine initially.

 

[JMartel]

Sounds like your circuit is being completed by either the closet light or receptacle load. The filaments are probably burning out and that's why you can't repeat the situation by just replacing the bulbs in the new lights. Replace the closet light bulb. Probably works momentarily.

You stated "I'm getting 120V at the connections between the white/ground wires and the black/ground wires." So if you mean that you are reading 120v between neutral and ground, then you have an open neutral somewhere. So your wall lights are in series with the receptacle and/or closet light depending on whether something is plugged in or closet light is on.
Does the closet light work independant of everything else? same for receptacle?

Without a sketch of the cabling between points, it is a little difficult to gie you more info.

All bulbs are CFL's. Closet light still works fine.

Closet light is on a separate switch system and works correctly. Receptical still works fine.





Thanks for the help so far. Looks like I got some more digging to do.

 

[JMartel]

You say switches, are there more than one controlling these two lights, or does each light have it's own switch? The 120v from white to ground is also suspect, if you've broken the neutral you could get 120v from neutral to ground but hard to tell without seeing exactly how it's wired. Seems to me something didn't get put back together the way it should have been.

2 switches, both control both lights. Same as one would see for lights in a staircase where you can turn on at the bottom and off at the top.

 

[MTW]

Here's the deal.

I'm getting 120V at the connections between the white/ground wires and the black/ground wires.

Any idea on what to do next? I'm at a loss. I'm more of a mechanical systems guy than electrical.

You have a bad neutral (white wire) connection in one of the boxes at or near the lights in question.

You should not get 120V between the neutral and ground, should be very near 0V. You should have 120V between black and white, or black and ground.

Find and turn off the circuits that power the lights and plugs in the area that you mentioned.

Take the fixtures down again and check the wiring inside the box, not just the pigtails to the lights. You might have disturbed or pulled loose a poor neutral connection inside the box. If you don't find it in the light boxes, check the nearby boxes, the ones that cause it to work.

Somewhere in the circuit the neutral is disconnected. When you turn on the closet light, or plug something into the outlet, and it makes them work again. This is giving the wall lights another path for the neutral current. The neutral current from your wall lights is going through the device plugged into the outlet, same go's for the closet light. Keep opening boxes in the vicinity until you find it. Let us know how you make out on your detective work.

 

[sparky36000]

All bulbs are CFL's. Closet light still works fine.

Closet light is on a separate switch system and works correctly. Receptical still works fine.





Thanks for the help so far. Looks like I got some more digging to do.

Three way switches, CFL's, this is going to be tough to troubleshoot without pictures or drawings. Just to many places for problems. Your sure wiring got put back together like it originally came apart? Neutral issue somewhere sounds likely, but still hard to tell.

 

[Gary S]

You say switches, are there more than one controlling these two lights, or does each light have it's own switch? The 120v from white to ground is also suspect, if you've broken the neutral you could get 120v from neutral to ground but hard to tell without seeing exactly how it's wired. Seems to me something didn't get put back together the way it should have been.

Right. Something wrong here if you are getting 120v from white to ground. This says your circuit is not being completed by the switch.

 

[nehog]

...
I'm getting 120V at the connections between the white/ground wires and the black/ground wires.

...

If you are seeing 120 volts between neutral and ground, then your neutral is open somewhere, possibly at the switch.

 

[JMartel]

Thanks for the fast responses everyone. I'll start digging to find a broken neutral tonight when I get home from work.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If you are seeing 120 volts between neutral and ground, then your neutral is open somewhere, possibly at the switch.

Woops! I read the post so fast that i missed this!

 

[JMartel]

Ok, did some more fiddling.

Tested resistance on Neutral/Ground for the first switch and the outlet directly below. Both are reading basically 1 so there's definitely a break in the line/loose connection. I re-did all the wire nut connections and that did not solve the problem.

The outlet below the switch has 3 pairs of wires coming in, plus another pair going to the outlet for a total of 4 pairs in each wire nut. My assumption is that this is the outlet that is providing power to the switch circuit. This is also the only outlet that currently does not work. The rest of the power in the room is fine, just that outlet, the two lights, and the 2 associated switches.

Any ideas where to look first for the open neutral?

EDIT: Tomorrow I'll start looking for resistance along the neutral wire from receptical to receptical.

 

[alpinewhite]

Check voltage across black and white while the bulb is on. Check it again with the bulb disconnected. If all is ok, they should be the same.

 

[m3bs]

I was having similar problems. Many of my receptacles were wired using the plug-in slot instead of the screw terminals. 30 years later, I started having problems with dead receptacles and lights. I've had to go through and rewire or replace several receptacles to fix them. For some reason, it seems to be the neutral side that most often fails.

 

[JMartel]

I did replace the outlet thinking about that since I had a couple brand new ones on hand. I didn't have any switches though so those are the same.

 

[FMC]

2 switches, both control both lights. Same as one would see for lights in a staircase where you can turn on at the bottom and off at the top.

and you only have black white and ground? shouldn't that be a 3 wire and ground?

 

[alpinewhite]

Any updates, OP?