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Help from electrician for load calculations

ManCave

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Sep 16, 2008
Messages
213
Hello,

I'm filling out paperwork for the power company regarding having them run 400 amp power out to a building for me. They need a load calc. The main power draw is potentially (down the road) going to be two 20 ton 3-phase air handlers. I'm looking at this one for an example.

If someone could calculate the Connected Load in KW and the Estimated Demand Load in KW for me I'd appreciate it. The numbers would be combined for the two units.

The rest of my power usage will be pretty trivial. Some Lights, warming trays, potentially a band for music...

Thanks! Any help would be appreciated!
 
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LS6 Tommy

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Northern NJ
IIRC, you can use the load rating on the unit tag. I could very easily be wrong. The rest of your loads for lighting, food warmers, etc, will have to be calculated.

Tommy
 
Last edited:

kinglew

Active member
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Dec 27, 2017
Messages
44
The electrician do the work will do that.i am electrician but will no give you that info.your electrician will
 
OP
M

ManCave

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This forum is about helping one another and if you're not willing to help then why even reply? If you only want to vent, you'll get more support on electrician talk.

I don't think you know the answer to my questions. :)




If you true are a electrician you would no this is simple math
 
Last edited:

metlmunchr

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Sep 10, 2011
Messages
1,278
The unit specs show 45 kW of resistance heat which would be a far greater load than 20 tons of cooling. No indication of indoor fan hp, but 5hp or less for 8000 cfm would cover it. Round numbers, 50 kW per unit when in heating mode.

If you run both units to warm the place up, the demand would push 100kW from the 2 units alone. Assuming the facility sees sporadic use, the demand charge on your power bill will likely far exceed the electrical use charge so its important that you understand up front what the demand charges are in your area.

For example, with Duke Energy where I live, if I were to run a 100kW demand for 20 minutes and never turn the units on again, I'd have a $640 demand charge bill every month for a year. Drive 20 miles up the road where power comes from a co-op and the same 100kW demand would give you a $1100 demand charge bill each month for a year.

90 kW of electric heat is 307,000 btu/hr. I'd look seriously at using a pair of 20 ton gas-pac units and operate them on propane if natural gas isn't available in your location. Resistance heat is about the most expensive heat in general, and this is particularly true on commercial services subject to demand and the use is somewhat sporadic.

A lot of utility companies offer what they term a small commercial service where there is no demand charge as long as you don't exceed 35kW. It would be worthwhile to see if that's available from your utility. A pair of the more efficient 20 ton A/C units will push 35kW when running fully loaded. It could be worthwhile to have a load calculation run to make certain what you really need if the current pair of 20T units are just an offhand guess. If a pair of 15's or 17.5's would do the job, you might be able to slide into the small commercial category if your utility offers such.

IMO, the typical large portable or spot cooling unit is ridiculously expensive for what you get. AFAIK, equipment of this type is still immune from any energy efficiency regulations and efficiency is way down the list of their priorities. I worked in the hvac business for 20+ years, and any of these units I've seen are also extremely noisy.

A reputable hvac contractor familiar with commercial scale work can likely work with you to give you a heating and cooling system that would operate at far lower cost than the portables, and do it at a price that's not much different than the cost of the energy hogs being discussed.
 

TheEquineFencer

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Location
Farmville, NC 27828
The unit specs show 45 kW of resistance heat which would be a far greater load than 20 tons of cooling. No indication of indoor fan hp, but 5hp or less for 8000 cfm would cover it. Round numbers, 50 kW per unit when in heating mode.

If you run both units to warm the place up, the demand would push 100kW from the 2 units alone. Assuming the facility sees sporadic use, the demand charge on your power bill will likely far exceed the electrical use charge so its important that you understand up front what the demand charges are in your area.

For example, with Duke Energy where I live, if I were to run a 100kW demand for 20 minutes and never turn the units on again, I'd have a $640 demand charge bill every month for a year. Drive 20 miles up the road where power comes from a co-op and the same 100kW demand would give you a $1100 demand charge bill each month for a year.

90 kW of electric heat is 307,000 btu/hr. I'd look seriously at using a pair of 20 ton gas-pac units and operate them on propane if natural gas isn't available in your location. Resistance heat is about the most expensive heat in general, and this is particularly true on commercial services subject to demand and the use is somewhat sporadic.

A lot of utility companies offer what they term a small commercial service where there is no demand charge as long as you don't exceed 35kW. It would be worthwhile to see if that's available from your utility. A pair of the more efficient 20 ton A/C units will push 35kW when running fully loaded. It could be worthwhile to have a load calculation run to make certain what you really need if the current pair of 20T units are just an offhand guess. If a pair of 15's or 17.5's would do the job, you might be able to slide into the small commercial category if your utility offers such.

IMO, the typical large portable or spot cooling unit is ridiculously expensive for what you get. AFAIK, equipment of this type is still immune from any energy efficiency regulations and efficiency is way down the list of their priorities. I worked in the hvac business for 20+ years, and any of these units I've seen are also extremely noisy.

A reputable hvac contractor familiar with commercial scale work can likely work with you to give you a heating and cooling system that would operate at far lower cost than the portables, and do it at a price that's not much different than the cost of the energy hogs being discussed.

:headscrat:headscrat:headscrat:headscrat If I were the OP, after reading this I'd do some more homework...
 

Ohmthis

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Outside of Louisville KY
Metlmuncher has lead you to water, only you can choose to take a drink. Who told you you needed a total of 40 tons of cooling? Definitely have a contractor who is good with commercial experience load calc (manual N) and tell you what you actually need for heating and cooling.
 
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danski0224

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This forum is about helping one another and if you're not willing to help then why even reply? If you only want to vent, you'll get more support on electrician talk.

I don't think you know the answer to my questions. :)

Because sometimes you either need to do it yourself, or actually pay a professional to do it, rather than rely on what is usually incorrect or inapplicable feedback from random Internet "experts" that probably aren't familiar enough with the particulars of your location or job.

Duh.
 

TheEquineFencer

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Joined
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Location
Farmville, NC 27828
Because sometimes you either need to do it yourself, or actually pay a professional to do it, rather than rely on what is usually incorrect or inapplicable feedback from random Internet "experts" that probably aren't familiar enough with the particulars of your location or job.

Duh.

This is like a computer program...it's only as accurate as the information you feed it. There are "experts" on GJ....

Some are smart enough to know that unsweetened tea is not made from sweetened tea...
 

ant.foste

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403
Location
Maryland
If this is going to be a wedding venue, demand charges will kill you throughout the year. You may want to explore a smaller electrical service to cover lighting, sound, warming trays, etc, and put the temp HVAC on generator power. You'll need big power for two days at a time, each time you have an event, no? You don't want to be paying that extreme electric utility bill for the other 255 days/year.

I have been in the temp power & HVAC industry for 14 years. I'm veeeery familiar with HVAC for tents.
 
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ManCave

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Messages
213
Finally back working on this part of the project again. Thanks everyone for all the good info. I did check and there is only demand charges on 3-phase power which we don't have at our location. No extra charges at all on bringing in the 400 amp power other than a fee to run the line from the transformer to the location where we need the power.
 

brewchief

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Location
Michigan
Finally back working on this part of the project again. Thanks everyone for all the good info. I did check and there is only demand charges on 3-phase power which we don't have at our location. No extra charges at all on bringing in the 400 amp power other than a fee to run the line from the transformer to the location where we need the power.
Without 3 phase power you will be limited on cooling capacity, I doubt you will find much over 5 tons in a single unit.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 

metlmunchr

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20T of cooling = 70 kW... :thumbup:

Tommy

While its true that 20T or 240,000 btu/hr is approximately equal to 70 kW/hr, that's 70 kW of heat removed and not 70 kW of electric demand.

Current data on a Carrier 38APD025 air cooled condensing unit shows a capacity of 22 tons with 95*F OAT and 40*F SST. Total electrical load for compressors and condenser fans is 22.8 kW. Add a 5hp indoor fan and you're right on 25 kW, or about 1.1 kW per ton.

First block on page 18 of https://www.utcccs-cdn.com/hvac/docs/1005/Public/0A/38AP-14PD.pdf

OTOH, 45 kW of resistance heat is exactly what the number implies. An electrical input of 45 kW and you'd have to add another 3+ kW for the indoor fan motor.

All done, the electrical load for 45 kW of resistance heat will be roughly twice the load for 20 tons of cooling.
 

MattT

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Feb 20, 2010
Messages
3,201
The main power draw is potentially (down the road) going to be two 20 ton 3-phase air handlers. I'm looking at this one for an example.

I did check and there is only demand charges on 3-phase power which we don't have at our location.

So you're planning to run 40 tons of cooling on a 400A single phase service using some kind of phase converter or vfds? That'll add inefficiency which will increase the load. If it's even feasible. And the light company may have a problem with that much connected horsepower too.

You really need to talk to, and most likely pay, someone with experience with this kind of application rather than trying to wing it with free load calcs from the innerwebs.
 

LS6 Tommy

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While its true that 20T or 240,000 btu/hr is approximately equal to 70 kW/hr, that's 70 kW of heat removed and not 70 kW of electric demand.

Current data on a Carrier 38APD025 air cooled condensing unit shows a capacity of 22 tons with 95*F OAT and 40*F SST. Total electrical load for compressors and condenser fans is 22.8 kW. Add a 5hp indoor fan and you're right on 25 kW, or about 1.1 kW per ton.

First block on page 18 of https://www.utcccs-cdn.com/hvac/docs/1005/Public/0A/38AP-14PD.pdf

OTOH, 45 kW of resistance heat is exactly what the number implies. An electrical input of 45 kW and you'd have to add another 3+ kW for the indoor fan motor.

All done, the electrical load for 45 kW of resistance heat will be roughly twice the load for 20 tons of cooling.


Duh. What the hell was I thinking? I did exactly that- I converted heat transferred directly to kW... :tard:

Tommy
 

mike93lx

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Richmond, VA
So you're planning to run 40 tons of cooling on a 400A single phase service using some kind of phase converter or vfds? That'll add inefficiency which will increase the load. If it's even feasible. And the light company may have a problem with that much connected horsepower too.

You really need to talk to, and most likely pay, someone with experience with this kind of application rather than trying to wing it with free load calcs from the innerwebs.

Yeah, i don't think 400a single phase will cut it.

Agree that this is far beyond free forum advice. It is a business, do it right and hire a pro
 
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