Help ID old floor Jack

[widetrackman]

My brother passed away and left me his tools including this jack which needs rebuilding. I can not find any no.s or name to order a rebuild kit. Thought someone might ID the jack. Looks to me well built and worth rebuilding. Any comments or help appreicated. I have additional pics if needed.

 

[PureLeaf]

It almost looks like my sears jack...

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[Streetbu]

Looks like an older Sear jack which were actually blackhawk IIRC. My dad has one and it needs to be rebuilt. That's my winter project for him. Now to try and find the parts for it...

 

[widetrackman]

What puzzels me is that the casters bolts dont protrude mouting arms ( flat on top ) also its uses the universal joint type release valve, not the star gear. the cylinder is very similar to a lincoln but mounts different. Here are additional pics. Thanks

 

[PureLeaf]

You need to post this under the tool discussion, specifically talk to the user Hiball. He's the resident hydraulic jack expert

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51105

 

[widetrackman]

You need to post this under the tool discussion, specifically talk to the user Hiball. He's the resident hydraulic jack expert

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51105

Yep, but dont know how to move this thread to Tool Discussion. Maybe Adm's can do it. Thanks.

 

[widetrackman]

Hey, Hiball can you help?

 

[EDGAR]

That is a made in Brazil jack, sold as INTERMARKET brand. I doubt you are going to find a kit for that. The best thing to do is to measure the seals and buy them in any good hydraulic shop. You can also try online with THEORINGSTORE.COM or any other supplier.

It was also sold as an ATD brand.

The u-cup used as main seal should be 40mm x 50mm x Height (whatever is available, as there is not much choice in a hydraulic shop).

Replacing the seals with aftermarket ones is usually cheaper than buying a kit, and the only choice when no kits are available.

Just remember to also replace the o-ring inside the big nut and the o-ring mounted on the release stem.

See below the long frame version, in blue.

At least two, maybe three, GJ members have that jack.

Check below what is available in THEORINGSTORE. But check the size, just to be sure.

http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=371_690_480&sort=4a&page=12

 

[widetrackman]

Thanks EDGAR. I have a few questions ; the height of the seal ( seal slot mics 9mm) will a 8mm be ok or to loose? there is a 40mm x 52mm x 9mm available, I think. Also blued the release valve to see how it was seating, it never touched the port, does a ball bearing go between the stem and the seat. what type of rod seal would you use ? The red jack looks like mine but blue. BTW are these jacks worth fooling with? Thanks again

 

[EDGAR]

You should leave at least one millimeter or close to 1/16" of space above the u-cup, so the 8 mm would be about the right size.

The u-cups are measured at the heel, or bottom, part of the u-cup, away from the lips. This apply for the outside diameter and the inside diameter.

Where did you measure that got you the 52mm? If the inside diameter of the cylinder is about 50mm, or maybe just a little more to accommodate the u-cup lips, you won't be able to fit a 52mm seal there, it will just jam in the cylinder, and the measure of the lips' outside diameter is going to be more than 52mm.

See the picture below where to measure if you don't have the original seal to measure. The bottom of the seal (outside diameter) should be about the same diameter but no more, depending on the design of the seal.

There should be a ball under the release to seal against the seat when the release is closed. Without it, the jack does not works at all.

This is a good jack to repair, certainly better than the Harbor Freight ones.

What do you mean with "What type of rod seal would you use"? The ram u-cup seal is a "piston" application as well as the small u-cup at the end of the pump piston and not a "rod" seal application. Although, the "symmetric" u-cup seals could be used for piston and rod applications.

The u-cup should fit in a similar way to the one shown below. This is from another brand of jacks.

Also, if the u-cup was broken be sure to remove all the small pieces of the u-cup as any one left moving around in the oil could eventually jam a working , or one way, valve ball, producing a non working jack instantly.

 

[Hiball]

Hey, Hiball can you help?

Looks like you are on your Way, Just so there is NO confusion when you order Parts, When Acquiring the ID of the Ucups your trying to replace, Measure the Actual Hard Part that the Seal fits around. The Reason behind this is because a Ucup will generally measure bigger on the Backside in Regards to the ID and Smaller on the Front side, sometimes up to a 1+ MM bigger/smaller on Larger bores. In Other Words if your Actual Seal carries a ID of 24MM, It will more than likely measure somewhere around 24.5+MM on the Back side of the UCUP, IF you mistakenly think you need a 25MM ID, It will measure 25.5+MM when it shows up and thus can cause fitment issues along with Sealing issues. Its easier to just measure the Hard part, as it will give you the True Measurement you need.

 

[widetrackman]

Yep, but dont know how to move this thread to Tool Discussion. Maybe Adm's can do it. Thanks.

You should leave at least one millimeter or close to 1/16" of space above the u-cup, so the 8 mm would be about the right size.

The u-cups are measured at the heel, or bottom, part of the u-cup, away from the lips. This apply for the outside diameter and the inside diameter.

Where did you measure that got you the 52mm? If the inside diameter of the cylinder is about 50mm, or maybe just a little more to accommodate the u-cup lips, you won't be able to fit a 52mm seal there, it will just jam in the cylinder, and the measure of the lips' outside diameter is going to be more than 52mm.

See the picture below where to measure if you don't have the original seal to measure. The bottom of the seal (outside diameter) should be about the same diameter but no more, depending on the design of the seal.

There should be a ball under the release to seal against the seat when the release is closed. Without it, the jack does not works at all.

This is a good jack to repair, certainly better than the Harbor Freight ones.

What do you mean with "What type of rod seal would you use"? The ram u-cup seal is a "piston" application as well as the small u-cup at the end of the pump piston and not a "rod" seal application. Although, the "symmetric" u-cup seals could be used for piston and rod applications.

The u-cup should fit in a similar way to the one shown below. This is from another brand of jacks.

Also, if the u-cup was broken be sure to remove all the small pieces of the u-cup as any one left moving around in the oil could eventually jam a working , or one way, valve ball, producing a non working jack instantly.

OK lets see; I measured the hard part O.S. of piston @ 1.860 in. as you indicated, and I.S. @ 1.60 in.. If I got it right 40 mm =1.5748 and 50 mm = 1.9835. Is the 40x50 ok. The reason I mentioned a 40 mm x 52 mm was if I needed a seal height of 9mm. The ball was missing or I lost it, sooo what do I do ? size?, also there was a 5/16" rubber sleave in the bottom that I picked out, but no o rings, so will a o-ring work? I haven't picked out the tank head seal or o ring yet but it looks like a sguare o- ring. Will a round o-ring work ? In looking at the O-Ring Store metric seals would the piston u-seal style be right, and for the rod symmetrical or their rod u seal. Does it matter if Nitrile or Urethane . Sorry for being long winded but new to Hyd.s and Jacks. Thanks

 

[widetrackman]

Looks like you are on your Way, Just so there is NO confusion when you order Parts, When Acquiring the ID of the Ucups your trying to replace, Measure the Actual Hard Part that the Seal fits around. The Reason behind this is because a Ucup will generally measure bigger on the Backside in Regards to the ID and Smaller on the Front side, sometimes up to a 1+ MM bigger/smaller on Larger bores. In Other Words if your Actual Seal carries a ID of 24MM, It will more than likely measure somewhere around 24.5+MM on the Back side of the UCUP, IF you mistakenly think you need a 25MM ID, It will measure 25.5+MM when it shows up and thus can cause fitment issues along with Sealing issues. Its easier to just measure the Hard part, as it will give you the True Measurement you need.

Hiball, thanks for the reply, If I am overlooking something in my reply to EDGAR, please advise. Have any suggestions on locating parts, ie balls, seals and material for seals. Thanks

 

[EDGAR]

The u-cup you want is the one shown below, first thumbnail. Don't worry too much about different shapes or materials. That is why I showed you pic no. 3 in post # 8, so you knew what to get. I don't think you are going to get them any cheaper. An urethane u-cup has a higher load rating than a nitrile u-cup of the same size, so it is better.

If you want to spend a little more, then get the one shown in the second thumbnail. It provides a slightly better seal at low pressures, because of the o-ring inserted between the lips.

As for the ball try a 1/4" first and see if it seals correctly. The other sizes suitable would be 5/16" or maybe even 3/16". I really don't see it using any bigger or smaller.

I did not get the thing about the rubber sleave in the bottom, could you be more specific?

Also, remove the o-ring from inside the big nut and see if it is really square or if it has just flattened over time. Were you referring to this?

A round o-ring should work well anywhere.

When measuring the O-rings, measure the cross section on the top and bottom side. Measuring it on the inside and outside diameter can give you a different , smaller size if the inside of the o-ring is worm down too much. If you see the inside of the o-ring flattened, instead of a round cross section, do not measure the CS there. O-rings are ordered, or referred to, by providing the CS x ID.

 

[Hiball]

Hiball, thanks for the reply, If I am overlooking something in my reply to EDGAR, please advise. Have any suggestions on locating parts, ie balls, seals and material for seals. Thanks

Nope Everything looks good Now, the only suggestion I might add is to maybe check your area for a hydraulic shop, this way you can take the hard parts in and maybe match up parts you need, it's always good to patronize local shops when possible.

Good luck

 

[widetrackman]

The u-cup you want is the one shown below, first thumbnail. Don't worry too much about different shapes or materials. That is why I showed you pic no. 3 in post # 8, so you knew what to get. I don't think you are going to get them any cheaper. An urethane u-cup has a higher load rating than a nitrile u-cup of the same size, so it is better.

If you want to spend a little more, then get the one shown in the second thumbnail. It provides a slightly better seal at low pressures, because of the o-ring inserted between the lips.

As for the ball try a 1/4" first and see if it seals correctly. The other sizes suitable would be 5/16" or maybe even 3/16". I really don't see it using any bigger or smaller.

I did not get the thing about the rubber sleave in the bottom, could you be more specific?

Also, remove the o-ring from inside the big nut and see if it is really square or if it has just flattened over time. Were you referring to this?

A round o-ring should work well anywhere.

When measuring the O-rings, measure the cross section on the top and bottom side. Measuring it on the inside and outside diameter can give you a different , smaller size if the inside of the o-ring is worm down too much. If you see the inside of the o-ring flattened, instead of a round cross section, do not measure the CS there. O-rings are ordered, or referred to, by providing the CS x ID.

The 5/16 long rubber tube is in the bottom of the hole right above the ball, the unthreaded part of the stem goes thru it @ the ball. I guess it's to keep the release stem from leaking. Looks special, dont know if a o-ring would work unless you stacked several? Hope this makes sense. Wish I knew how to do drawings Also you didn't mention what rod seal to use on the head. One thing I failed to mention was the pump seals on the pump (see my pics). The o-ring would be no problem, but the end seal is some type cup seal that looks ok ??, any ideas. I am about 80 mi from nearest large town so I am trying do this on the internet if possible. Thanks for all the help.

 

[littleponderosa]

looks just like the aff 2100 i just rebuilt. never seen as much manufacturing crud inside any hydraulics, appearance of carbon like material but would break under fairly decent finger pressure.
hiball knows his stuff and i'd for damn sure take any info he provides.
mine has held up a 4 wheeler for over 24 hours - cool balancing act -at this point and no drop. i will rebuild mine again if it goes to hell.
cleared off 1 garage hole late tonight so tomorrow it will go under one of the 4x4's for a little stress test.
best of luck
Bill

 

[EDGAR]

If it uses a rubber tube to seal the stem and not an o-ring and it is not leaking, then leave it alone. If it leaks, then you will have to try stacking O-rings as you mentioned or you will need to experiment with different sizes of rubber hose like the ones used in cars as vacuum tubing.

The rubber tubing should be inserted in the hole before screwing in the release stem. The rubber tube should be slightly squeezed between its cylinder or hole and the stem, when the stem is inserted so there is positive sealing. If there is no squeezed, it will not seal. To be sure you are achieving that squeeze, you need to feel some resistance to turning the stem when screwing it in. If it turns too easily, you may not have the necessary squeeze. Just like the orings, which need to have some squeeze between the cylinder and the piston to seal. If it is too difficult to turn the stem when it goes into the tubing, then you might have too much squeeze and you should try some other tubing.

If you go the orings way, these should be mounted on the stem and them screwed in its hole. Always used some oil to mount any seal or insert any ram in a cylinder or the release stem in its hole.

If you can't replace the u-cup at the end of the pump piston, don't worry, the o-ring will do all the work of pulling the oil from the tank and then pumping the oil behind the ram. It should be measured the same way the bigger u-cup was measured.

In the past, the use of u-cups was common as the seal for the pump piston; some still use them. Most modern jacks use only an o-ring (some use two) as the seal for the pump piston, and the o-ring can be either mounted on the pump piston itself or in the cylinder. The o-ring actually should work better for a longer time as it is a two way seal while the u-cup is a one way seal. They are also cheaper to replace.

It may be difficult to measure the inside diameter of the small u-cup as it looks that it takes all the space available to mount it. You may have to squeeze a caliper in between the metal part and the u-cup, to measure the hard part. Even if the u-cup looks OK, its lips may be worn enough that it does not seals enough to prevent a leak or the seal could have hardened and the lips are not pliable enough to maintain a good squeeze against its cylinder. But as I mentioned earlier, the o-ring will do the job of the u-cup, no problem with that.

What is the Outside diameter of the small u-cup? I repaired one of these about four years ago but I only remember the size of the ram u-cup. I do remember having a difficult time measuring the hard part to get the inside diameter of the small u-cup as there was no space to insert the caliper jaws either in front or rear of the u-cup.

Could you post a picture of the lower end of the release stem, showing up to the threaded part?

So, is there actually a ball under the rubber tube or is it missing?

Please, remember that you are dealing here with a piston application and not a rod application. If you contact any hydraulic supplier and you tell them that you want a "rod seal" you are going to have some confusion going on. A rod seal is mounted in a groove inside the cylinder. A piston seal is mounted on the ram or piston. In any case, remember that you want a symmetric u-cup ( not a rod seal) as it can be used in either application. You have to be specific about the u-cup name as there are many different types (shapes) of piston seals.

There are asymmetrical u-cups and the shape and/or height of the lips change depending on the application it is going to be used on. Also, the sizes available on these are not as many as in the symmetrical u-cups.

And remember: measure twice, buy once!

 

[widetrackman]

If it uses a rubber tube to seal the stem and not an o-ring and it is not leaking, then leave it alone. If it leaks, then you will have to try stacking O-rings as you mentioned or you will need to experiment with different sizes of rubber hose like the ones used in cars as vacuum tubing.

The rubber tubing should be inserted in the hole before screwing in the release stem. The rubber tube should be slightly squeezed between its cylinder or hole and the stem, when the stem is inserted so there is positive sealing. If there is no squeezed, it will not seal. To be sure you are achieving that squeeze, you need to feel some resistance to turning the stem when screwing it in. If it turns too easily, you may not have the necessary squeeze. Just like the orings, which need to have some squeeze between the cylinder and the piston to seal. If it is too difficult to turn the stem when it goes into the tubing, then you might have too much squeeze and you should try some other tubing.

If you go the orings way, these should be mounted on the stem and them screwed in its hole. Always used some oil to mount any seal or insert any ram in a cylinder or the release stem in its hole.

If you can't replace the u-cup at the end of the pump piston, don't worry, the o-ring will do all the work of pulling the oil from the tank and then pumping the oil behind the ram. It should be measured the same way the bigger u-cup was measured.

In the past, the use of u-cups was common as the seal for the pump piston; some still use them. Most modern jacks use only an o-ring (some use two) as the seal for the pump piston, and the o-ring can be either mounted on the pump piston itself or in the cylinder. The o-ring actually should work better for a longer time as it is a two way seal while the u-cup is a one way seal. They are also cheaper to replace.

It may be difficult to measure the inside diameter of the small u-cup as it looks that it takes all the space available to mount it. You may have to squeeze a caliper in between the metal part and the u-cup, to measure the hard part. Even if the u-cup looks OK, its lips may be worn enough that it does not seals enough to prevent a leak or the seal could have hardened and the lips are not pliable enough to maintain a good squeeze against its cylinder. But as I mentioned earlier, the o-ring will do the job of the u-cup, no problem with that.

What is the Outside diameter of the small u-cup? I repaired one of these about four years ago but I only remember the size of the ram u-cup. I do remember having a difficult time measuring the hard part to get the inside diameter of the small u-cup as there was no space to insert the caliper jaws either in front or rear of the u-cup.

Could you post a picture of the lower end of the release stem, showing up to the threaded part?

So, is there actually a ball under the rubber tube or is it missing?

Please, remember that you are dealing here with a piston application and not a rod application. If you contact any hydraulic supplier and you tell them that you want a "rod seal" you are going to have some confusion going on. A rod seal is mounted in a groove inside the cylinder. A piston seal is mounted on the ram or piston. In any case, remember that you want a symmetric u-cup ( not a rod seal) as it can be used in either application. You have to be specific about the u-cup name as there are many different types (shapes) of piston seals.

There are asymmetrical u-cups and the shape and/or height of the lips change depending on the application it is going to be used on. Also, the sizes available on these are not as many as in the symmetrical u-cups.

And remember: measure twice, buy once!

I am attaching pics of the rubber tube, the release stem and a close up of the pump piston. I damaged the tube when removing so reusing is out. BTW found a .250 ball in the parts washer it may be from the jack, as you can see on the end of the steem theres a detent. I removed the rod seal and it was a thick section o-ring (.155 +/_), the grove htg. is 3/16 and inside mic'd .220 . The rod mic,s 2.20I tried a metric #217, 29.7mm X 36.7mm o-ring w/ a 3.5 section, it fit very snug on the rod but appeared to need more section when in the grove. I am wondering if a 0-ring is correct? Is there a 4 or 5 mm symmetrical seal that would work? As to the pump piston the cup looks real good ,so will replace o-ring only. I forgot, I need a dust cap for the pump, any ideas? I think this is should answer all my issues . BTW you have been very gracious to go to all this detail for me. Thanks again.

 

[Hiball]

Lol.. Your going to miss out on all the fun by not replacing that pump piston cup, the button is stupidily oversized and takes quite a bit of force to remove (normally tear) and installing is a pain as littlepondrosa can quickly confirm as he just finished his Jack recently. In regards to the dust boot, I don't know of anyone who sells a replacement, I've always used some quality zip ties and a section of bicycle inner tube. The release seal piece in your picture is Oem style, I'm not saying that stacking some Orings wouldn't work if sized correctly, but the sleeve type is oem based off my experience with this style of Jack in short and long frame versions.

 

[EDGAR]

The ORINGSTORE sells 4mm O-rings that may fit inside the big nut. They also sell a 4.5 mm CS and a 5MM CS. Check the sizes below in the first three thumbnails. I am assuming the inside diameter of the o-ring as 30mm based on your measurements.

As for the release stem seal, Lazzar's (HCRCNOW.COM) sells one seal that is intended for the mini jacks and others, but it might work in yours depending on the measurements. They give the measurements in the page the item is shown. Check the link below. There is also a pic of it way below.

http://www.hcrcnow.com/shop/parts/hein-werner/featured/8846

Otherwise you will need to find some rubber vacuum tubing of the same size, or any other rubber hose, to replace the seal. Still, the stacked O-rings idea should work, as long as these keep the necessary squeeze between the stem hole and the stem itself. It should work like any other o-ring application. O-rings come in 1.5mm, 1.6mm, 1/16", 1.78mm, 1.8mm, 1.9mm, 2mm, 2.4mm, 2.5mm, 3/32". If you check TheOringstore metric o-ring section, you will see more small cross section sizes, although a couple of them do not have smaller ID sizes to fit over the stem end. The ones mentioned above have smaller ID sizes to fit over the stem end. Anyway, you need to measure the CS of the rubber tubing you removed, maybe add some small percentage to that measure to account for wear, and see if any of the O-rings above matches the CS of the rubber seal. Link to O-rings.

http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=368_12

Could you measure the pump piston u-cup Outside diameter? Also, the top part of the pump piston diameter, as shown in the pic below? I was thinking that by subtracting two millimeters (one per side) to the top part measurement, the inside diameter could be obtained, maybe, as I don't know how tall is the edge that retains the u-cup in place. I will assume it is at least 1mm. And also, please measure the height.

About the dust boot, if the pump piston could be taken apart it would be easier to fit some type of bellows, maybe like the ones used in rack and pinion power steering where the shaft that pushes the steering knuckle comes out. Some of these bellows might be small in diameter to fit over the pump piston cylinder. Or maybe one of the small boots used in ball joints or rod ends. But this would remain static, unlike a below, so the smaller hole fit should be loose enough to allow the pump piston to slide in and out easily.

Let me remind you that the proper names to use here are u-cup and o-ring. You don't have a "rod seal" here, except maybe for the release stem seal. If you contact someone and ask for a "rod seal" you may have a though time getting what you really want. I get somewhat confused, even though I know what you are talking about!

 

[widetrackman]

Yea , I though that piston seal would be a trip. I figured removing it would destroy it and I would have a time finding one. I have a trick when installing these type of things ; I boil water in a small can and keep dunking part untill pliable enough to install. For larger parts I have used a 2-3 gal metal bucket and a turkey or catfish cooker to heat the water. How much dunking/heat is a judgement thing as you dont want to distort the part. Do you know what brand of jack uses the tube seal and who might have a piston seal like mine. Thanks again.

 

[widetrackman]

The ORINGSTORE sells 4mm O-rings that may fit inside the big nut. They also sell a 4.5 mm CS and a 5MM CS. Check the sizes below in the first three thumbnails. I am assuming the inside diameter of the o-ring as 30mm based on your measurements.

As for the release stem seal, Lazzar's (HCRCNOW.COM) sells one seal that is intended for the mini jacks and others, but it might work in yours depending on the measurements. They give the measurements in the page the item is shown. Check the link below. There is also a pic of it way below.

http://www.hcrcnow.com/shop/parts/hein-werner/featured/8846

Otherwise you will need to find some rubber vacuum tubing of the same size, or any other rubber hose, to replace the seal. Still, the stacked O-rings idea should work, as long as these keep the necessary squeeze between the stem hole and the stem itself. It should work like any other o-ring application. O-rings come in 1.5mm, 1.6mm, 1/16", 1.78mm, 1.8mm, 1.9mm, 2mm, 2.4mm, 2.5mm, 3/32". If you check TheOringstore metric o-ring section, you will see more small cross section sizes, although a couple of them do not have smaller ID sizes to fit over the stem end. The ones mentioned above have smaller ID sizes to fit over the stem end. Anyway, you need to measure the CS of the rubber tubing you removed, maybe add some small percentage to that measure to account for wear, and see if any of the O-rings above matches the CS of the rubber seal. Link to O-rings.

http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=368_12

Could you measure the pump piston u-cup Outside diameter? Also, the top part of the pump piston diameter, as shown in the pic below? I was thinking that by subtracting two millimeters (one per side) to the top part measurement, the inside diameter could be obtained, maybe, as I don't know how tall is the edge that retains the u-cup in place. I will assume it is at least 1mm. And also, please measure the height.

About the dust boot, if the pump piston could be taken apart it would be easier to fit some type of bellows, maybe like the ones used in rack and pinion power steering where the shaft that pushes the steering knuckle comes out. Some of these bellows might be small in diameter to fit over the pump piston cylinder. Or maybe one of the small boots used in ball joints or rod ends. But this would remain static, unlike a below, so the smaller hole fit should be loose enough to allow the pump piston to slide in and out easily.

Let me remind you that the proper names to use here are u-cup and o-ring. You don't have a "rod seal" here, except maybe for the release stem seal. If you contact someone and ask for a "rod seal" you may have a though time getting what you really want. I get somewhat confused, even though I know what you are talking about!

Oops, sorry EDGAR over looked your thumnail on tube seal and piston seal. I will measure and post, if you can point me in the right direction I may get one and give a try. Working my order for parts, cant wait to put it back together.Thanks again fo all the help again.

 

[widetrackman]

The ORINGSTORE sells 4mm O-rings that may fit inside the big nut. They also sell a 4.5 mm CS and a 5MM CS. Check the sizes below in the first three thumbnails. I am assuming the inside diameter of the o-ring as 30mm based on your measurements.

As for the release stem seal, Lazzar's (HCRCNOW.COM) sells one seal that is intended for the mini jacks and others, but it might work in yours depending on the measurements. They give the measurements in the page the item is shown. Check the link below. There is also a pic of it way below.

http://www.hcrcnow.com/shop/parts/hein-werner/featured/8846

Otherwise you will need to find some rubber vacuum tubing of the same size, or any other rubber hose, to replace the seal. Still, the stacked O-rings idea should work, as long as these keep the necessary squeeze between the stem hole and the stem itself. It should work like any other o-ring application. O-rings come in 1.5mm, 1.6mm, 1/16", 1.78mm, 1.8mm, 1.9mm, 2mm, 2.4mm, 2.5mm, 3/32". If you check TheOringstore metric o-ring section, you will see more small cross section sizes, although a couple of them do not have smaller ID sizes to fit over the stem end. The ones mentioned above have smaller ID sizes to fit over the stem end. Anyway, you need to measure the CS of the rubber tubing you removed, maybe add some small percentage to that measure to account for wear, and see if any of the O-rings above matches the CS of the rubber seal. Link to O-rings.

http://www.theoringstore.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=368_12

Could you measure the pump piston u-cup Outside diameter? Also, the top part of the pump piston diameter, as shown in the pic below? I was thinking that by subtracting two millimeters (one per side) to the top part measurement, the inside diameter could be obtained, maybe, as I don't know how tall is the edge that retains the u-cup in place. I will assume it is at least 1mm. And also, please measure the height.

About the dust boot, if the pump piston could be taken apart it would be easier to fit some type of bellows, maybe like the ones used in rack and pinion power steering where the shaft that pushes the steering knuckle comes out. Some of these bellows might be small in diameter to fit over the pump piston cylinder. Or maybe one of the small boots used in ball joints or rod ends. But this would remain static, unlike a below, so the smaller hole fit should be loose enough to allow the pump piston to slide in and out easily.

Let me remind you that the proper names to use here are u-cup and o-ring. You don't have a "rod seal" here, except maybe for the release stem seal. If you contact someone and ask for a "rod seal" you may have a though time getting what you really want. I get somewhat confused, even though I know what you are talking about!

Oops, sorry EDGAR over looked your thumnail on tube seal and piston seal. I will measure piston seal and post, if you can point me in the right direction I may get one and give a try. Working on my order for parts, cant wait to put it back together.Thanks again fo all the help again.

 

[widetrackman]

Oops, sorry EDGAR over looked your thumnail on tube seal and piston seal. I will measure piston seal and post, if you can point me in the right direction I may get one and give a try. Working on my order for parts, cant wait to put it back together.Thanks again fo all the help again.

The piston cup measures .900 at lip, .869 at bottom (same size as brass piston.) The cylinder bore for piston is .860 . The oring grove is .691 I.S. and .869 O.S. and heigh of grove is 3.5mm. Thanks

 

[EDGAR]

Based on your measurements, that would make the o-ring ID 18mm (.691) and the OD should be 23mm to fit inside the cylinder bore which should be slightly larger than 22mm. A 22mm OD o-ring will not seal as it is the same diameter as the brass base. But something does not add up. If the o-ring groove depth (or height) is 3.5mm as you say, when we ad the ID and the 3.5mm X 2, we get a 25mm OD, (18mm + 3.5mm + 3.5mm ) which is more than the cylinder bore. And since we also need the o-ring to be slightly thicker to squeeze between the piston and the cylinder, that would make the o-ring cross section still bigger, like 4mm to fit in the 3.5mm groove height. So 18mm + 4mm + 4mm = 26mm OD. But the ideal o-ring should be 18mm ID X 23mm OD. That would be a cross section of 2.5mm. So 18mm + 2.5 + 2.5 = 23mm. Am I missing something or is my math wacky?

Or do you mean that the width (and not the depth) of the groove is 3.5 mm?

Just to be sure, measure the o-ring cross section to verify its size. Could you also measure the groove to verify that the ID of the o-ring is 18mm?

As for the pump piston u-cup, one of the measurements I wanted was the OD of the brass part above, or in front, of the u-cup. Check picture below. The idea was to figure out the ID of the u-cup in case you are unable to measure the hard part by pushing the u-cup aside a little. The seal is hard and tight in there, and it might be difficult to push in the caliper jaws between the u-cup and the brass base.

I was thinking that by subtracting two millimeters (one per side) to the top part measurement, the inside diameter could be obtained. I don't know how tall is the edge that retains the u-cup in place but I will assume it is at least 1mm. And also, please measure the height of the pump piston u-cup.

At least we have the pump piston u-cup OD at 22mm. The height of the original u-cup looks quite tall, I don't know if there is going to be a replacement that tall, but that should not be a problem. An o-ring, or a wire clip, in front of a shorter u-cup should keep it from moving forward on the upstroke.

 

[Hiball]

My Advice, Don't guess based off the button size, if you have a set of feeler gauges, or something of thin gauge that will fit between the base and the bottom of the Ucup, measure the inset, double that number and subtract it from your known 22mm OD.

 

[widetrackman]

Based on your measurements, that would make the o-ring ID 18mm (.691) and the OD should be 23mm to fit inside the cylinder bore which should be slightly larger than 22mm. A 22mm OD o-ring will not seal as it is the same diameter as the brass base. But something does not add up. If the o-ring groove depth (or height) is 3.5mm as you say, when we ad the ID and the 3.5mm X 2, we get a 25mm OD, (18mm + 3.5mm + 3.5mm ) which is more than the cylinder bore. And since we also need the o-ring to be slightly thicker to squeeze between the piston and the cylinder, that would make the o-ring cross section still bigger, like 4mm to fit in the 3.5mm groove height. So 18mm + 4mm + 4mm = 26mm OD. But the ideal o-ring should be 18mm ID X 23mm OD. That would be a cross section of 2.5mm. So 18mm + 2.5 + 2.5 = 23mm. Am I missing something or is my math wacky?

Or do you mean that the width (and not the depth) of the groove is 3.5 mm?

Just to be sure, measure the o-ring cross section to verify its size. Could you also measure the groove to verify that the ID of the o-ring is 18mm?

As for the pump piston u-cup, one of the measurements I wanted was the OD of the brass part above, or in front, of the u-cup. Check picture below. The idea was to figure out the ID of the u-cup in case you are unable to measure the hard part by pushing the u-cup aside a little. The seal is hard and tight in there, and it might be difficult to push in the caliper jaws between the u-cup and the brass base.

I was thinking that by subtracting two millimeters (one per side) to the top part measurement, the inside diameter could be obtained. I don't know how tall is the edge that retains the u-cup in place but I will assume it is at least 1mm. And also, please measure the height of the pump piston u-cup.

At least we have the pump piston u-cup OD at 22mm. The height of the original u-cup looks quite tall, I don't know if there is going to be a replacement that tall, but that should not be a problem. An o-ring, or a wire clip, in front of a shorter u-cup should keep it from moving forward on the upstroke.

Man my head is getting screwed up . Ok I am going to start over with inch measurents, disreguard the 3.5mm it was my conversion. I dont have a metric caliper. Here goes; O.D. of brass piston above cup is .750, the I.S. Dia.. of piston grove for the cup is .296 x 2=.591 ( slipped feeler guage till bottomed, below bottom of cup, measured from body to out side of feeler, then subtracted from width of feeler gauge, then multiplied by 2, which I think Hiball was talking about???). Length of cup is .333. Now for the oring; the I.S. dia of the oring is .691, the width of the grove is .114-115. The brass piston O.D. is .869 above and below the oring and the bore is .858 -.860. I hope I got this right.

 

[EDGAR]

Well, based on your measurements, the u-cup I.D. would be 15mm. So the u-cup would be 15mm X 22mm x 8mm, as .333 height is almost 8.5mm. Are you sure it is .333? Anyway, I doubt you can get this u-cup in a taller size than 8mm.

Are you absolutely sure 15mm (.591) is the ID of the u-cup?

The problem with this size is that THEORINGSTORE does not show this size in their website. They have 14 x 22 and 16 x 22. You will need to call them and ask if there is any chance of them getting one for you. But only if you are 100% sure 15mm is the I.D. size.

This size is sold by other seal distributors. I checked MFPseals.com catalog and they supposedly have it in stock, but I as far as I know, MFPseals.com is a wholesaler, although some GJ member said some time ago that he had ordered a single u-cup from them, so I am not sure if they also sell now their seals at the retail level.

You have the alternative of checking other online suppliers or leaving the original u-cup in place and see if you can get one from some other place at a later date.

http://www.mcgivernhydraulics.com/

http://www.hcrcnow.com/

http://www.vorishydraulics.com/

http://www.hydraulic-supply.com/

As for the bore measurement, .858 - .860, this measurement is actually smaller than the brass part, .869, so the brass part would not fit in the bore. The bore should be closer to .88 -.89.

The o-ring should then be, 2.5mm X 18mm (CS X ID), based on your measurements.

You did not measure the C.S. of the o-ring, just to be sure it is 2.5mm CS .

And remember the new/old saying: measure twice, buy once!

 

[EDGAR]

I am using the metric conversion chart shown below.

http://www.malonemachine.com/MetricConversionChart.html

So 14mm would be: .5512 or slightly less than 9/16".

16mm would be: .6299 or slightly bigger than 5/8".

 

[widetrackman]

Well, based on your measurements, the u-cup I.D. would be 15mm. So the u-cup would be 15mm X 22mm x 8mm, as .333 height is almost 8.5mm. Are you sure it is .333? Anyway, I doubt you can get this u-cup in a taller size than 8mm.

Are you absolutely sure 15mm (.591) is the ID of the u-cup?

The problem with this size is that THEORINGSTORE does not show this size in their website. They have 14 x 22 and 16 x 22. You will need to call them and ask if there is any chance of them getting one for you. But only if you are 100% sure 15mm is the I.D. size.

This size is sold by other seal distributors. I checked MFPseals.com catalog and they supposedly have it in stock, but I as far as I know, MFPseals.com is a wholesaler, although some GJ member said some time ago that he had ordered a single u-cup from them, so I am not sure if they also sell now their seals at the retail level.

You have the alternative of checking other online suppliers or leaving the original u-cup in place and see if you can get one from some other place at a later date.

http://www.mcgivernhydraulics.com/

http://www.hcrcnow.com/

http://www.vorishydraulics.com/

http://www.hydraulic-supply.com/

As for the bore measurement, .858 - .860, this measurement is actually smaller than the brass part, .869, so the brass part would not fit in the bore. The bore should be closer to .88 -.89.

The o-ring should then be, 2.5mm X 18mm (CS X ID), based on your measurements.

You did not measure the C.S. of the o-ring, just to be sure it is 2.5mm CS .

And remember the new/old saying: measure twice, buy once!

The .333 was by laying caliper on seal and questimating, I would say its 8mm. The .591 at the oring is correct and thats what I got with the feeler guage process at the back of the cup. . When feeler cuage bottomed out it felt like it was on metal. Did you understand how I was using feeler gauge? The piston O.D. is correct. I think my starret calipers inside blades are causing a problem. I will remeasure using snap guages and outside mic tommorow, also the CS of oring. BTW when removing the piston it was very tight, I bet I find +2-3 thous. more bore than piston. Thanks.

 

[widetrackman]

The .333 was by laying caliper on seal and questimating, I would say its 8mm. The .591 at the oring is correct and thats what I got with the feeler guage process at the back of the cup. . When feeler cuage bottomed out it felt like it was on metal. Did you understand how I was using feeler gauge? The piston O.D. is correct. I think my starret calipers inside blades are causing a problem. I will remeasure using snap guages and outside mic tommorow, also the CS of oring. BTW when removing the piston it was very tight, I bet I find +2-3 thous. more bore than piston. Thanks.

OK remeasured piston bore at .8745 and the piston OD at.8703 for a net difference of .0042. As to the oring on the piston it mic'd about .100 --102. which is about a 2.5mm CS. However I mic'd a #115 metric oring that is listed as a CS of 3.5 CS in my oring set. I installed it and it appeared to be to loose at inside dia and not enought CS. I dont understand. BTW I can not confirm that the existing oring was OEM, may be a repair replacement that was not correct. Thanks again.

 

[EDGAR]

The #115 metric O-ring is either 2.4mm or 2.5mm CS not 3.5mm. In the Harbor Freight metric kit , the #115 o-ring is listed as 2.4mm x 17.8mm. The series 100 in SAE sizes is 3/32". The series 200 is 1/8". The series 000 is 1/16" CS.

I am wondering if the seal could be 3mm CS, since you tested a 2.4mm or 2.5mm and you say it lacks enough CS. Anyway, the o-ring can not be loose in the inside diameter and the outside diameter has to rise a little over the outside diameter of the brass part, to provide adequate squeeze between cylinder and the bottom (not the sides) of the groove of the brass part, in this case. If the 17.8 mm or 18mm is loose, then the ID could be 17mm or even 16mm? The outside diameter of the o-ring should be 23mm or as close to it as possible. So you have to try an o-ring CS that will have a slight squeeze on the ID and give you 23mm on the OD, whether it is a 3mm CS or even a 3.5mm CS. As related to O-rings and other seals, an exact size does not leak, a "close enough" size leaks.

The reason I insist in being very precise when measuring is that the difference in sizes could look minimal to you but it is not minimal when it is related to the seals.

The method you used to measure the ID of the u-cup requires very high precision because if you, for example, are off by half 1 MM, them when you double that amount you will have a whole millimeter of difference, which for seals sizes is big enough not to work right or at all. So what could be 14mm can end up being 15mm, or what could be 16mm could end up being 15mm. If, for example, the actual size is 14mm and you get a 15mm ID u cup, it simply won't seal in the inside diameter, it would leak. And if you have a smaller diameter u-cup and the real size turns to be just 1mm bigger, this might expand the seal lips enough to make it a tight fit inside the cylinder, making it hard to push or pull the cylinder by hand. The u-cup should move up and down in the cylinder with some friction felt when doing it, but not too much nor too little.

Since you have had some differences in measuring, I can only recommend to you to measure everything again very carefully and very precisely. Have nothing like " this looks close enough". It either is or it isn't.

I really wish you could measure the u-cup I.D. with a caliper, just to be sure. With the method you used, I would measure the part 3 or 4 times and see if there is consistency in the measurement or if there are variable values after each measure.

 

[Hiball]

Man you guys are making my head hurt... I keep seeing visions a Monkeys and Footballs in my head. I'll make a few phone calls this afternoon (if work permits) and see if I can aquire the sizing you need and if there is a kit. I'm fairly sure I have the correct Ucup size at Shop, I don't remember the exact sizing but recall it having a fairly large cross section, which is why I made the earlier comment about them being a pain to install with the oversized button.

Meanwhile re-measure the Oring groove to aquire a ID and then measure OD of the Brass pump piston, nothing else just those 2 measurements for now.

 

[Hiball]

Ok Mr Flora is out of town till Wed, but after doing some research your jack is a model Intermarket #400, it cross references over to some Viking/AFF with a seal kit number of #683012. If your interested in a complete kit, Blackhawk parts shows it available, Might give Marc at Lazzars hydraulic to see if they stock it and do some price shopping.

Link to intermarket #400 parts diagram.


Hope this helps.

EDIT.. I just came from the Shop, I Couldn't find the Pump Piston Ucup, Im fairly certain I have one, because a bought a few last time I had one of these in the shop. Unfortunately.. its MIA.. I don't recall it being a special size etc, but without knowing the sizing I cant confirm whether the Oring store will handle it. I buy all my seals from Martin Fluid Power, I even went back thru the catalog as I normally highlight the common sizes for quick reference, But No Luck. Ive attached a picture courtesy of GJ Member Little Ponderosa as he just recently rebuilt his unit.

 

[littleponderosa]

i'll go check the parts envelope but i'm fairly sure Hiball is correct in his part number suggestion. Off to the garage for confirmation. I'm telling you Hiball knows his stuff - that is the correct p/n. I followed Hiballs' suggestion and put it on the wheel. Slid on with some serious effort with Lubriplate 105. Memory - scary right there - od was 0.75 and I took it down to just at 0.64 or 0.62 - might go on with a tighter tolerance - I'm am/was dealing with a bad thumb from a grinder incident that constantly bled for 7 straight days - I'm much better now. bwahaha
My kit came from tri-city hydraulics in FL - do not know if they still have kits. This was a very old purchase - put the kit away so I wouldn't lose it and promptly lost it for over a decade - severe garage clean allows you to find some interesting things you have put away and waylaid.
I'm going to purchase another kit when the boy money gets rebuilt just in case. Thanks to Hiball referencing Blackhawk for the repair kit.
Bill

I might have some more photos stuck in a folder if you need reference.

 

[widetrackman]

The #115 metric O-ring is either 2.4mm or 2.5mm CS not 3.5mm. In the Harbor Freight metric kit , the #115 o-ring is listed as 2.4mm x 17.8mm. The series 100 in SAE sizes is 3/32". The series 200 is 1/8". The series 000 is 1/16" CS.

I am wondering if the seal could be 3mm CS, since you tested a 2.4mm or 2.5mm and you say it lacks enough CS. Anyway, the o-ring can not be loose in the inside diameter and the outside diameter has to rise a little over the outside diameter of the brass part, to provide adequate squeeze between cylinder and the bottom (not the sides) of the groove of the brass part, in this case. If the 17.8 mm or 18mm is loose, then the ID could be 17mm or even 16mm? The outside diameter of the o-ring should be 23mm or as close to it as possible. So you have to try an o-ring CS that will have a slight squeeze on the ID and give you 23mm on the OD, whether it is a 3mm CS or even a 3.5mm CS. As related to O-rings and other seals, an exact size does not leak, a "close enough" size leaks.

The reason I insist in being very precise when measuring is that the difference in sizes could look minimal to you but it is not minimal when it is related to the seals.

The method you used to measure the ID of the u-cup requires very high precision because if you, for example, are off by half 1 MM, them when you double that amount you will have a whole millimeter of difference, which for seals sizes is big enough not to work right or at all. So what could be 14mm can end up being 15mm, or what could be 16mm could end up being 15mm. If, for example, the actual size is 14mm and you get a 15mm ID u cup, it simply won't seal in the inside diameter, it would leak. And if you have a smaller diameter u-cup and the real size turns to be just 1mm bigger, this might expand the seal lips enough to make it a tight fit inside the cylinder, making it hard to push or pull the cylinder by hand. The u-cup should move up and down in the cylinder with some friction felt when doing it, but not too much nor too little.

Since you have had some differences in measuring, I can only recommend to you to measure everything again very carefully and very precisely. Have nothing like " this looks close enough". It either is or it isn't.

I really wish you could measure the u-cup I.D. with a caliper, just to be sure. With the method you used, I would measure the part 3 or 4 times and see if there is consistency in the measurement or if there are variable values after each measure.

Great techinal info. I can not do any better on measuring the cup I.D. without removing it, which I dont want to do untill I have a replacement, as the cup looks real good I might be off some, .001 +/_ but no more ( assumbing the feeler guage was bottomed out ). As to the oring my eyes got on the wrong col., CS for #115 is 2.4 mm. The piston pic Hiball posted below looks like mine, it also looks like the I.D. of the oring and u cup are different, therefore negating my measurement of the cup. The oring I.S. dia and the piston O.D. are as previously measured, no change. Thanks

 

[widetrackman]

i'll go check the parts envelope but i'm fairly sure Hiball is correct in his part number suggestion. Off to the garage for confirmation. I'm telling you Hiball knows his stuff - that is the correct p/n. I followed Hiballs' suggestion and put it on the wheel. Slid on with some serious effort with Lubriplate 105. Memory - scary right there - od was 0.75 and I took it down to just at 0.64 or 0.62 - might go on with a tighter tolerance - I'm am/was dealing with a bad thumb from a grinder incident that constantly bled for 7 straight days - I'm much better now. bwahaha
My kit came from tri-city hydraulics in FL - do not know if they still have kits. This was a very old purchase - put the kit away so I wouldn't lose it and promptly lost it for over a decade - severe garage clean allows you to find some interesting things you have put away and waylaid.
I'm going to purchase another kit when the boy money gets rebuilt just in case. Thanks to Hiball referencing Blackhawk for the repair kit.
Bill

I might have some more photos stuck in a folder if you need reference.

Hi Littlepondrosa, so are you saying chuck her in the lathe and turn her down?

 

[widetrackman]

Ok Mr Flora is out of town till Wed, but after doing some research your jack is a model Intermarket #400, it cross references over to some Viking/AFF with a seal kit number of #683012. If your interested in a complete kit, Blackhawk parts shows it available, Might give Marc at Lazzars hydraulic to see if they stock it and do some price shopping.

Link to intermarket #400 parts diagram.


Hope this helps.

EDIT.. I just came from the Shop, I Couldn't find the Pump Piston Ucup, Im fairly certain I have one, because a bought a few last time I had one of these in the shop. Unfortunately.. its MIA.. I don't recall it being a special size etc, but without knowing the sizing I cant confirm whether the Oring store will handle it. I buy all my seals from Martin Fluid Power, I even went back thru the catalog as I normally highlight the common sizes for quick reference, But No Luck. Ive attached a picture courtesy of GJ Member Little Ponderosa as he just recently rebuilt his unit.

Hiball thanks for pics and kit part no. Will check it out next week. Still like to be able purchase separate parts.

 

[Hiball]

Hiball thanks for pics and kit part no. Will check it out next week. Still like to be able purchase separate parts.

NP.. I was just throwing out other options, More than likely you will be able to save a few bucks piecing your kit out, More so if buying in bulk and Obviously that $$$ will be determined on how far you go in regards to Seals and Valve components, Not to mention Shipping etc.. I always recommend using Local hydraulic shops when feasible as they "Generally" carry a wide variety of Sizes, Especially in regards to Orings as these Jack Manufacturers don't always utilize fixed sizes, In other words you might find a 18.6mm (just throwing that size out there) Oring that actually crosses over to a SAE and Vice Versa. In My findings when needing Off Breed sizes that I don't have I normally hit my Hydraulic shop up and they almost always Measure the ID and test fit from there based off a variety ID/Cross Sections. After you have replaced enough Orings, You get a pretty good idea of how much protrusion is enough, along with how it fits the Groove on the ID and more so in how it operates after feels while/after installing it.

Lemme say you are Not alone.. Ive have literally spent Hours trying to help people size up the appropriate sized seals and its a difficult task to say the least, Especially in the Oring department due to all the Variety of sizes and Lack there of also. The Harbor freight kits are Generic sized at best, You might occasionally run across a common used size but IMO more show than Go.