Help me design a shop in upstate NY

[Greg5OH]

We are looking to buy/build a home in the adironack area of NY. The tax parcel will be in an area where it is ok to put up outbuildings.
So, location is taken care of. Which also means natural gas is probably out. Propane, oil, wood, electricity would be the only availability.

I have big dreams, little knowledge as to actual cost. I'm thinking this can be done for under 100k..maybe I am out to lunch, maybe compromises need to be made.

The purpose of the building is to be able to store and work on cars, pickup trucks with gooseneck trailers, 45 foot RV with trailer.

40x80 with 14 foot doors. Partition in the middle so I dont have to condition both spaces unless needed.
30x50 would be minimum so the 45 foot RV could fit. As far as steel buildings, i dont think its tha
Has to be a steel building, no pole barns. I like the vaulted ceiling look.

14 foot doors on front and back of short side to pull thru RV/ truck+gooseneck.
3+ 8-10 foot doors along the long side so cars can access hoists if RV is blocking the long aisle.
3+ 2 posts, 1 4 post and 1 alignment rack.

Climate control.
Id like to think in ground radiant heating would be most efficient, but cant be anchoring in new equipment down the line.
Radiant tube seems to be the most cost effective and popular for big commercial shops. Im fine working in 55F, 60F is balmy.
I see most steel buildings have a type of reflective or white plastic faced roll in insulation. What type is recommended?

I don't believe air conditioning would really be needed in this area, i think some big *** ceiling fans should suffice.
Please let me know your thoughts and opinions. If my wants vs costs are not from this century, do let me know!
Again, 40x80 is the dream but I can be very happy in a 30x50.

 

[billconner]

You dont say where in Adirondacks but I'm on north west side - outside the blue line - and Amish rule.

You say no to post frame because you want vaulted ceiling, not trusses with a level ceiling. First to consider post frame with scissor trusses. Might suit. (Not me - I like the vaulted ceiling too.) Second is a basic barn with rafters - but that usually means internal columns (wood posts) to get the width you want with ADK snow loads.

Just some initial thoughts.

And yes, I know an architect (who is qualified to do structure) solo practitioner who does nice work. I'd guess there are others - ADK attracts a certain type. But best bang to or your buck - work with an Amish community. And if it is an agricultural building, no building codes - just zoning.

 

[Greg5OH]

You dont say where in Adirondacks but I'm on north west side - outside the blue line - and Amish rule.

You say no to post frame because you want vaulted ceiling, not trusses with a level ceiling. First to consider post frame with scissor trusses. Might suit. (Not me - I like the vaulted ceiling too.) Second is a basic barn with rafters - but that usually means internal columns (wood posts) to get the width you want with ADK snow loads.

Just some initial thoughts.

And yes, I know an architect (who is qualified to do structure) solo practitioner who does nice work. I'd guess there are others - ADK attracts a certain type. But best bang to or your buck - work with an Amish community. And if it is an agricultural building, no building codes - just zoning.

Thank you, appreciate the insight. Although ADK is the dream for the mountain views and small school communities, housing is harder to find there than just south of it. Im not going to get into the laundry list of things were are looking for in a home/property, just the building envelope.
Indeed I want to stay away from columns. Freedom to move larger vehicles around is paramount.
Go for broke and if I land short of it..should still be something decent.

 

[Youngandfree]

What about using steel vaulted trusses on post frame construction?

 

[billconner]

Well, for 30 to 40' clear span and some vaulted ceiling, you can do a steel building ("red iron", Butler, Mueller, etc.) or one with scissor trusses. Scissor trusses would work with stick framing (like two-bys on 16 or 24" centers) or a post frame (pole barn). I'm guessing you can get more vaulted ceiling with scissor trusses - like 12:12 roof and 6:12 ceiling - easier than steel. You have to decide on appearance. I like the steeper roof but maybe not visible or you don't care.

You've got a lot of doors and tall.

You might call Hansen Buildings and get a quote for post frame. 36 x 60 is good for their 12' module. Give you a starting point for price.

I'm guessing your vaulted ceiling might get cut for cost.

 

[billconner]

What about using steel vaulted trusses on post frame construction?

Good idea. Especially if you went to a 12' module. More money but nice look.

 

[Greg5OH]

Thank you for the suggestions, Ill give those builders a call to see what they recommend.
I always had this kind of look in mind, though I doubt that roof pitch is rated for my geographical snow load.
a 40x80 wouldnt need so many side doors as there woudl be plenty room to move the RV off to one side and just use 1 main door on the short side.

Any thoughts on heating methods?
What concrete run per yard up in that part of the woods?
I'm assuming I would need something at least 8" thick.

 

[billconner]

Was around $185 cy last summer.

Frost line here is 48", probably 42" on south edge of ADK. Tough energy codes if heating. R25 walls and R49 roof, some less with continuous insulation on exterior where I live. You might be one zone lower - around - R values about 5 less.

I think you're in the $75-100 sf range, assuming big things are contracted. I had 2 quotes - 900 sf - $45/sf for shell - no slab, no insulation, no mechanicals - early pandemic. (I ended up building with rough sawn and somewhere around $20 sf - no heat or insulation, gravel floor for now.)

 

[Marvin Berry]

I'm way up north, and I can tell you that you'll be able to work comfortably in a 40° garage, and a 50° garage will be balmy.

If you're working.

 

[Greg5OH]

I'm way up north, and I can tell you that you'll be able to work comfortably in a 40° garage, and a 50° garage will be balmy.

If you're working.

I concur. But i prefer 50. Tig welding at 40F can start to get chilly. Working in a sweater or thick plaid is great. I have my current attached 2.5 at 60 and its T shirt work. But its also for haning out and chewing the fat.
Too expensive to heat a 40x80 that warm and uneccessary. I jsut know most forced air units shouldnt be operated under 40F.
No way id run forced air in such a large shop.

For contracting work, id have the structure and concrete work done by pros. Insulation (assuming no spray foam), electrical plumbing, garage door install I would do myself (with helping hands).

With an all steel building, can I have the structure put up before doing the concrete floor, similar to a pole barn?

 

[billconner]

All of the preengineered steel frame buildings I've worked on had tension members in the slab tieing column bases together. I believe there are other options to resist those lateral forces.

 

[Youngandfree]

Thank you for the suggestions, Ill give those builders a call to see what they recommend.
I always had this kind of look in mind, though I doubt that roof pitch is rated for my geographical snow load.
a 40x80 wouldnt need so many side doors as there woudl be plenty room to move the RV off to one side and just use 1 main door on the short side.

Any thoughts on heating methods?
What concrete run per yard up in that part of the woods?
I'm assuming I would need something at least 8" thick.

What else are you planning to put in there to make you think you need 8" thick slab?

 

[Greg5OH]

What else are you planning to put in there to make you think you need 8" thick slab?

50k lb bus RV, with the ability to use those 6 linkable heavy duty truck jacks

 

[NYBODYMAN]

Good luck with the build. How about using Goff's Curtain Walls on a track system as a partition. Might be able to save some money there.

 

[Greg5OH]

Good luck with the build. How about using Goff's Curtain Walls on a track system as a partition. Might be able to save some money there.

Oh man looks like they have alot of cool stuff! Nice welding room partitions..

 

[jives]

My 32 x 42 post frame ("pole barn") in the Fingerlakes was built by the Amish with a 9/12 pitch scissor trusses that have an interior bottom chord of 6/12 pitch. Nicely vaulted. It is a nice building, built about 6 years ago. I put in the electrical, insulation, lighting and more. There are a number of reputable post frame builders in CNY aside from the Amish, but not sure about the Adirondacks.

 

[Capt Crash]

I recently ordered a 50x60x16 steel building. I am working on foundation and permits. For comparison, the steel building delivered with 12X14 doors included, and 6" insulation is $70,000. That also includes extra sheeting so that I can build a lean to later on. That is built for 45lb of roof snow load and 115 mph wind. I am doing 5" thick concrete and our frost depth is 3' and I am expecting concrete to be $55 to $60,000. I will be putting up the building myself so no labor costs, and I will get a forklift and crane use for free. I am hoping to be finished around $140,000.
Brian

 

[Greg5OH]

I recently ordered a 50x60x16 steel building. I am working on foundation and permits. For comparison, the steel building delivered with 12X14 doors included, and 6" insulation is $70,000. That also includes extra sheeting so that I can build a lean to later on. That is built for 45lb of roof snow load and 115 mph wind. I am doing 5" thick concrete and our frost depth is 3' and I am expecting concrete to be $55 to $60,000. I will be putting up the building myself so no labor costs, and I will get a forklift and crane use for free. I am hoping to be finished around $140,000.
Brian

Thanks. looks like the old saying stands true. Whatever you think your budget is-double it.

 

[paredown]

50k lb bus RV, with the ability to use those 6 linkable heavy duty truck jacks

I don't know how common this is, but when we poured a floor for my dad's shop, we had a rough idea of where the heavy machinery was going to be set up (tool & die/metal stamping with big presses), and poured thicker sections in those areas.

I was not very involved in that part of the build so I have no idea of how this was managed/laid out--but pouring lighter where you only have people and workbenches might be a way to save a little on cost...

 

[cretedog]

"Id like to think in ground radiant heating would be most efficient, but cant be anchoring in new equipment down the line."

Had pallet racking, machine tools and a couple of partitions in mind for our shop. Went with 6" slab on top of 5-6" of compacted sand on top of 2"styro with heat tubing. We can anchor anywhere and it has worked out fine. Maybe a little slower response time for changing temps than having the tubing right at the bottom of the slab, but not even noticeable in a shop environment.

 

[beltfeed]

We are looking to buy/build a home in the Adirondack area of NY. The tax parcel will be in an area where it is ok to put up outbuildings.
So, location is taken care of. Which also means natural gas is probably out. Propane, oil, wood, electricity would be the only availability.

I have big dreams, little knowledge as to actual cost. I'm thinking this can be done for under 100k..maybe I am out to lunch, maybe compromises need to be made.



40x80 with 14 foot doors. P
no pole barns. I like the vaulted ceiling look.

14 foot doors on front and back
3+ 8-10 foot doors
3+ 2 posts, 1 4 post and 1 alignment rack.

Climate control.
Id like to think in ground radiant heating would be most efficient, but cant be anchoring in new equipment down the line.
Radiant tube seems to be the most cost effective and popular for big commercial shops. Im fine working in 55F, 60F is balmy.
I see most steel buildings have a type of reflective or white plastic faced roll in insulation. What type is recommended?


Again, 40x80 is the dream but I can be very happy in a 30x50.

For what it's worth I want to put up a 45' X 65' X 14' tall shop this summer. I went through all the material numbers down to every nail, wire, etc. Stick frame build, cement block foundation (6 course of block in the ground and 3 course split face block above ground). 6" concrete floor with rigid foam board under concrete, 2" X 6" X 12' walls on top of 2' of block. Purchased trusses 6 /12 pitch, plywood sheeted sides and roof with 2' overhang, fiberglass roll insulation in walls and ceiling, 240-volt 200 AMP service, town water, ejector pump sewer pumped to homes septic system, asphalt roof shingles, full drywall interior, three 12' X 12' garage doors, one 3' wide man door. natural gas 100K BTU forced air furnace with rectangle main ducts and spiral branch ducts, gas line ran from house meter, LED lighting, good quality vinyl sided exterior 105K or 120K in LP smart siding exterior. This is strictly materials NO LABOR ADDED. I think you are close to $140K for a 40 X 80 with all the garage doors you want in material alone and even more with in floor heat. Remember garage doors all leak bad no matter how good a R value they have. If you want to heat it less doors are better. On another note, it may cost you an added premium to get materials brought up into the Adirondack's. I have been there many times and there are not much in the way of material suppliers in the area. Hope you build pans out, Adirondacks are a very nice place.

 

[Juiced06GTO]

You are going to run into an issue trying to "store" those items in the garage and work on projects in the same space. I just built a 30x40 with the expectation that I'd have plenty of room to store 1-2 cars and have room to work on a project and have workshop items like the drill press, saws, lathe, welding area, etc. all set up. The first thing you'll realize is welding/grinding/doing metal work and everything else dirty ***** when you have your two nice cars parked 15' away.

Build two separate buildings, one to store stuff in and one to work in haha, I know easier said than done. And having a 30x40 place to work and store stuff really should be enough.

 

[ConCretin]

I have big dreams, little knowledge as to actual cost. I'm thinking this can be done for under 100k..maybe I am out to lunch, maybe compromises need to be made.

Not to be too negative but I think you need to triple that budget. $32 sf isn't going to cut it. If you hire a contractor, I suspect you are looking at $90+ sf. We just built a 50x100 warehouse shell. Frost walls, slab, wood framed walls with trusses, fg shingles, metal siding, 2, 12x12 overhead doors (no operators) and 2 man doors. Minimal outlets and lighting, two 1/2 baths tied into existing septic and well, fg batt insulation, propane unit heaters and no AC. We're into it for $80 sf with no frills at all and we're contractors ourselves so no OH&P.

 

[billconner]

I agree with LLWillys and as I noted above - you're in the $75 to $100. Based on your size range $112,500 to $320,000.

As a design professional for 40 years, I worked for a lot of clients with same issues - champagne appetites and draft beer budgets. And it's gotten so much worse in last several years.

I do wish you a successful and satisfying build.

 

[beltfeed]

Juiced06GTO brought up some good points. A friend of mine that lives in Florida enlightened me to a different building approach. He says in Florida they have been putting up large metal buildings and then putting up a smaller building inside the large building that is heated / cooled and well light for doing all there fabricating and wrenching work in. The rest of the space around the smaller building is secure and used for vehicle storage. The added benefit would be having the town look at your large building when it's completed and signing off the project. Then build your smaller building inside afterwards for reduced taxes.

Mueller has some low costs steel building kits and a design your own option.

Mueller, Inc - Steel Buildings, Metal Buildings, Metal Roofing

Mueller, Inc. has served the southwest with high quality steel buildings, metal buildings, metal roofing, and components for over a quarter of a century. Mueller has branch locations in Texas, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Louisiana.

www.muellerinc.com

Mueller Building Configurator

The Building Configurator tool allows you to create, save and order your Mueller Building.

apps.muellerinc.com

 

[Greg5OH]

Thank you so much for all the insight. I think we may have found the property we want, its an hour south of the adironacks actually, but on a steep hill face none the less on near 20 acres. The owners have long ago flattened a good chunk for the current home and parking build, but I will definitly need to clear and flatten a virgin piece of land for my shop and make a separate driveway, which adds cost. I don't mind investing into the property as we plan on being there at least 20 years and the views are incredible. (Cant say forever because no one really knows where life will take you).
Good points on the storage vs work spaces, either 2 buildings or a building inside another.
I appreciate the reality check on pricing. This will be something that i want done right, or not done at all.
Nothing is worse then spending a bunch of money only to have regrets and need to modify it in 5 years.

 

[Greg5OH]

Mueller Building Configurator

The Building Configurator tool allows you to create, save and order your Mueller Building.

apps.muellerinc.com

This...is better than any video game.

 

[dcg9381]

I have a 40x60 and have owned many RVs. The building was designed so I could get a 5th wheel in and keep it connected to the truck. It's "pass through" with doors on each side. 60' is minimum for me with the truck and even that you may have to measure if you have a 40'+ monster.

You'll want red iron for those spans and the required roof pitch, IMHO. (I have a Mueller building)

I did not need 8" of concrete. More like 4-5" with 24" footers and concrete beams. IF you'll ever do a lift, you want to design concrete for that. This has handled 5th wheels and a 1-ton truck no problem.

My costs for clearing, foundation, concrete and shell (red iron) were about $75k in 2018. I'm in Texas, so it's typically a lower cost build area.

Heating - I can't speak to radiant heat. We started off using heat pump heat from 48k of ductless split. That works well until it's 40 degrees and the efficiency of those units in heat mode is impacted. I've supplemented with propane heat (ventless propane units) - but they can cause moisture in some climates.

If you have space, consider adding "shed roofs" - they are relatively low cost compartively and you can come back and do the concrete later. I've got a 20'x60' shed roof and a 15'x40' "porch".