Help me diagnose this issue

[MEDTECH]

In the process of rearranging my finished basement after carpet cleaning. I found 3 duplex outlets on the same 15A circuit that are not getting power. Also, a GFCI upstream is not working.
Went to swap with a new GFCI since the other outlets weren't on and figured I'd check for power on the bare wires @ the GFCI. Well, no power on the wires. Thought it might be a bad breaker in the panel but the 5th and last duplex on that same circuit is working.

Would it most likely be a breach in the wires that feed each of those dead outlets? I'm not sure how long it's been like that since it was my son's mancave but, since they're gone, I'm reclaiming the area. I know that circuit was fine a few years ago and no one said anything to me about them not working.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

Since you are close to the max for outlets is it possible you have a bad breaker?
Probably not likely could but the outlets be on a switch? I know I did a small storage work area in the basement that are all on the light switch. Reason I did it is so if anyone in the household left a soldering iron etc on, it wouldn’t burn the house down.
Otherwise a link from another feeding outlet has gone awol.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

You appear well insulated in case you accidentally touch a live wire.

 

[MEDTECH]

Since you are close to the max for outlets is it possible you have a bad breaker?
Probably not likely could but the outlets be on a switch? I know I did a small storage work area in the basement that are all on the light switch. Reason I did it is so if anyone in the household left a soldering iron etc on, it wouldn’t burn the house down.
Otherwise a link from another feeding outlet has gone awol.

I initially thought that but 1 out of 5 duplex outlets on that circuit is live. Just not the 4 in a row after that.

 

[mike93lx]

Since you are close to the max for outlets is it possible you have a bad breaker?
Probably not likely could but the outlets be on a switch? I know I did a small storage work area in the basement that are all on the light switch. Reason I did it is so if anyone in the household left a soldering iron etc on, it wouldn’t burn the house down.
Otherwise a link from another feeding outlet has gone awol.

There is no max for receptacles on a circuit in the US. No idea if Canada is different

@MEDTECH the last receptacle in the circuit can't be working if the upstream ones aren't so it sounds like you have the flow backwards.

I'd start by flipping the breakers on and off to see if that changes anything, then pulling and checking the receptacles and wiring at each box

 

[mm08822]

Go to the last working recept and what appears to be the "first" not working recept. Check both for back stabbed connections.

A good spare time project is to pull each device and reconnect all back-stabbed using screw terminals.

 

[ToolsRCool]

Likely that last duplex is on another circuit.

 

[MEDTECH]

Go to the last working recept and what appears to be the "first" not working recept. Check both for back stabbed connections.

A good spare time project is to pull each device and reconnect all back-stabbed using screw terminals.

Good point. The previous owner backstabbed the GFCI so I'm betting he did them all like that.

 

[cannuck]

First thing to do is plug an indicating device (anything you can see or hear from the panel) and trip the offending breaker to find out if socket #5 really is in that circuit. Next you can go to the switched side of the breaker at the panel and see if the breaker itself is working. then open up what you assume to be #1 and look to see how terminated and if wire from breaker as well as neutral back to panel is live on hot side and continuous on neut.

 

[acer66]

Good point. The previous owner backstabbed the GFCI so I'm betting he did them all like that.

GFCI’s are normally not considered back stabbed even it can look similar because they have plates that hold the wire securely in place instead of weak springs in regular receptacles.

 

[Innovate1]

First thing to do is plug an indicating device (anything you can see or hear from the panel) and trip the offending breaker to find out if socket #5 really is in that circuit. Next you can go to the switched side of the breaker at the panel and see if the breaker itself is working. then open up what you assume to be #1 and look to see how terminated and if wire from breaker as well as neutral back to panel is live on hot side and continuous on neut.

This! I'm a little confused about the order of receptacles. The issue is most likely the connections somewhere on the ends of runs (at receptacles or in junction boxes) rather than damage to the wires in the middle of runs. It's a matter of tracing the power from the breaker panel and finding where the power stops - that's where the problem is.

 

[Innovate1]

GFCI’s are normally not considered back stabbed even it can look similar because they have plates that hold the wire securely in place instead of weak springs in regular receptacles.

Those type clamps with screws and clamp plates are very good. Nothing like the horrible back stabbed terminals.

 

[MEDTECH]

Thanks, guys. I'm running out for docs appt and other errands and I will dive deeper later today.

 

[PelicanPines]

Good point. The previous owner backstabbed the GFCI so I'm betting he did them all like that.

That's bad... start at the breaker panel and trace the wires... FIX as you go.

I owned a house that was DIY wired... he used 3 conductor wire everywhere... with the black on one breaker and the red on another... so you never knew if the power was truly OFF in the connecting cables. Ask me how I found out... did you know ... BX cable and hacksaws are both conductive... and 120volts from one hand to the next hand... goes thru your chest... I've been tickled with juice but that one was a showstopper for me.

 

[PCustoms]

That's bad... start at the breaker panel and trace the wires... FIX as you go.

I owned a house that was DIY wired... he used 3 conductor wire everywhere... with the black on one breaker and the red on another... so you never knew if the power was truly OFF in the connecting cables. Ask me how I found out... did you know ... BX cable and hacksaws are both conductive... and 120volts from one hand to the next hand... goes thru your chest... I've been tickled with juice but that one was a showstopper for me.

Yeah if you don't understand MWBC then you run the risk of having issues when you work on half the circuit

 

[Norcal]

There is no max for receptacles on a circuit in the US. No idea if Canada is different

@MEDTECH the last receptacle in the circuit can't be working if the upstream ones aren't so it sounds like you have the flow backwards.

I'd start by flipping the breakers on and off to see if that changes anything, then pulling and checking the receptacles and wiring at each box

There no max for residential receptacles, but in non residential they are sized at 180 va each. Only commenting about the very broad statement.

 

[PelicanPines]

Yeah if you don't understand MWBC then you run the risk of having issues when you work on half the circuit

The circuit that "Got Me" ... the Red wire was DOUBLE plugged into a 15a breaker with a different circuit. The Black went to a single outlet next to the sink (NOT PROTECTED)... I wanted to eliminate that plug and move the BX to a better spot by the stairs... Sounds simple... In that outlet box... the black was visible... the RED was snipped off at the EDGE of the BX (WTF)... and was LIVE. (UNSEEN TOO)... Not wire capped... Not taped... just LIVE a few millimeters inside the BX edge.

Started to cut the BX to it's new length and hit the hidden, unused, live RED Wire... felt like I entered the MATRIX... there is no way that was wired to code... unless the code was specifically designed for suicide.

 

[Shiftless]

120volts from one hand to the next hand... goes thru your chest... I've been tickled with juice but that one was a showstopper for me.

You’re lucky that your show didn’t get PERMANENTLY stopped.

 

[MEDTECH]

Funny how life is. I ran into my buddy who's an electrician at my docs office. He's gonna stop by tomorrow PM and troubleshoot. I didn't want to bother him until I ran out of ideas but I gotta take advantage of the timing.

I'm still gonna keep at it as I want the experience going forward but he'll double-check everything.

 

[MEDTECH]

I'm posting pics to make things more clear. Bear with me as I'm learning as I go.

First pic: breaker labeling. 14 is the problem circuit.


2nd pic: Wall location of working and non-working duplex. Working one is facing you at 7 o'clock from panel


3rd pic: wiring of working duplex. THIS is the feeder for the downstream; I get this, now.


4th pic: GFCI that only protects the "Sprinkler"; no downstream protection obviously since it's the last outlet downstream.


Of the 2 duplexes I pulled, wires seem tight at all connections and are were well-wrapprd with electrical tape.

After seeing this, I'm wondering if the 2nd duplex after the panel should be swapped. I guess it's possible for that one to be dead, correct? With breaker "Live", working duplex reads 120.6V and next duplex reads 0V.

Appreciate your guys patience with a guy that just wants to learn.

 

[PCustoms]

This is the last one that works?




Looks new, did anyone swap anything recently?

 

[MEDTECH]

This is the last one that works?




Looks new, did anyone swap anything recently?

Yes, the duplex closest to the panel. That is powered. Up until recently, all outlets were working on the circuit. Nothing in my basement was changed by me.

I wondering if a hairdryer, with other loads, could have fried the next duplex, thereby killing power to the 3 downstream from it.

I should probably swap with a new duplex to see.

 

[PCustoms]

Yes, the duplex closest to the panel. Tat is powered. Up until recently, all outlets were working on the circuit.

I wondering if a hairdryer, with other loads, could have fried the next duplex, thereby killing power to the 3 downstream from it.

I should probably swap with a new duplex to see.

How comfortable are you working on this?

Do you have a meter?

If you think the second duplex is "fried", you should be able to pull the outlet and meter the bare wires.

I would personally start by looking at the "working" duplex. You have power there, it seems it's not leaving. Pull the wires off (one at a time if needed) and verify they are installed correctly (i.e. insulation isn't under the screw).

 

[Firebrick43]

I'm posting pics to make things more clear. Bear with me as I'm learning as I go.

First pic: breaker labeling. 14 is the problem circuit.


2nd pic: Wall location of working and non-working duplex. Working one is facing you at 7 o'clock from panel


3rd pic: wiring of working duplex. THIS is the feeder for the downstream; I get this, now.


4th pic: GFCI that only protects the "Sprinkler"; no downstream protection obviously since it's the last outlet downstream.


Of the 2 duplexes I pulled, wires seem tight at all connections and are were well-wrapprd with electrical tape.

After seeing this, I'm wondering if the 2nd duplex after the panel should be swapped. I guess it's possible for that one to be dead, correct? With breaker "Live", working duplex reads 120.6V and next duplex reads 0V.

Appreciate your guys patience with a guy that just wants to learn.

Don’t measure the cord receptacle, measure the incoming and outgoing wires/screw terminals themselves

 

[MEDTECH]

How comfortable are you working on this?

Do you have a meter?

If you think the second duplex is "fried", you should be able to pull the outlet and meter the bare wires.

I would personally start by looking at the "working" duplex. You have power there, it seems it's not leaving. Pull the wires off (one at a time if needed) and verify they are installed correctly (i.e. insulation isn't under the screw).

I'm ok with proceeding. Used my meter to take voltage readings. I take my time and always verify power is off before anything.

Good suggestion on install verification.

 

[MEDTECH]

Don’t measure the cord receptacle, measure the incoming and outgoing wires/screw terminals themselves

Thank you; will do.

 

[reader2580]

Did this circuit ever work? I had a basement receptacle circuit that didn’t work. It turned out a previous owner had cut the cable to the circuit, and removed the cable. Luckily, it was under the stairway that was unfinished so easy to fix.

 

[dave*99]

This is the last one that works?




Looks new, did anyone swap anything recently?

OP, please take a photo looking directly at the rear of this receptacle. So we can see the wires entering it. And remove the tape and look at everything. Something looks odd with the white wires so close to each other compared to the blacks.

Maybe the link is missing and the circuit is broken at this receptacle.

 

[MEDTECH]

Did this circuit ever work? I had a basement receptacle circuit that didn’t work. It turned out a previous owner had cut the cable to the circuit, and removed the cable. Luckily, it was under the stairway that was unfinished so easy to fix.

Yes, the circuit and all outlets worked at one time. My kids basically took over the basement and never said anything about issues. I have about 15 duplexes down there so they had plenty to choose from.

 

[MEDTECH]

OP, please take a photo looking directly at the rear of this receptacle. So we can see the wires entering it. And remove the tape and look at everything. Something looks odd with the white wires so close to each other compared to the blacks.

Maybe the link is missing and the circuit is broken at this receptacle.

Will do...later tonight; thank you.

 

[MEDTECH]

OP, please take a photo looking directly at the rear of this receptacle. So we can see the wires entering it. And remove the tape and look at everything. Something looks odd with the white wires so close to each other compared to the blacks.

Maybe the link is missing and the circuit is broken at this receptacle.

Does this scream anything? I see what you mean, now

 

[dave*99]

Looks normal. Is this the breakpoint? This one works and downstream are dead?
If so, verify this link is intact.

 

[MEDTECH]

Looks normal. Is this the breakpoint? This one works and downstream are dead?
If so, verify this link is intact.

Thank you; I'm ******* but will verify soon. And yes, all downstream are dead.

Really appreciate everyones help.

 

[PCustoms]

Does this scream anything?

I really think you should take a closer look at the terminals to make sure no insulation is under the screw....

Either way that tape needs to come off

 

[MEDTECH]

I really think you should take a closer look at the terminals to make sure no insulation is under the screw....

Either way that tape needs to come off

I'll do that. I gotta go out but I'll check them tomorrow AM.

Appreciate it.

 

[sparky 1971]

If it's known that both of those outlets are on the same circuit, the problem has to be at the terminals or between the two. Is there anything inside the box that the printer is sitting on? The little door above the printer? The other side of the wall? Turn the breaker off and see if something else goes out that you didn't realize was on the same circuit. And while it's off, pigtail everything.

 

[MEDTECH]

If it's known that both of those outlets are on the same circuit, the problem has to be at the terminals or between the two. Is there anything inside the box that the printer is sitting on? The little door above the printer? The other side of the wall? Turn the breaker off and see if something else goes out that you didn't realize was on the same circuit. And while it's off, pigtail everything.

You know, I just realized that the box with my printer houses my sump pump. I probably would never had thought to look there. Just got home and need to sleep but I will check that, tomorrow. Also, that open door above the panel only has a water shutoff valve for my hose bib.

 

[MEDTECH]

Can't sleep so I popped the cover on the sump box. Sure enough, the GFCI powering the pump is tripped. Unplugged the pump. reset the breaker and now have full power to everything downstream. Now, I just need to address the pump power because as soon as I plug it back in, GFCI trips and can't reset. But, at least you guys showed me how to solve this. Saved me a lot of aggravation.

Special thank you to @sparky 1971...you nailed it, sparky. I owe you many beers.

Seriously, thanks to EVERYONE for educating me.

 

[dave*99]

We have a winner!

 

[PCustoms]

We have a winner!

It always seems to be a hidden GFCI....