Help me pick a Crowfoot Wrench Set

[racinfarmer]

How? The center of the fastener and the center of the drive wrench on the lug aren't any further apart.

Although on a ratcheting torque wrench care needs taken to make sure you're really at 90 degrees and not ratcheting your way to 60.

I'll use an extreme.

You use a torque wrench that is 12" long. You find yourself some messed up crowsfoot design that is 18" long from the torque wrench drive to the center of the fastener.

Put the messed up crowsfoot straight off the end of the torquewrench and it is 30".

Turn the messed up crowsfoot 90°. You are back to 12" of effective length?

 

[neersighted]

I'll use an extreme.

You use a torque wrench that is 12" long. You find yourself some messed up crowsfoot design that is 18" long from the torque wrench drive to the center of the fastener.

Put the messed up crowsfoot straight off the end of the torquewrench and it is 30".

Turn the messed up crowsfoot 90°. You are back to 12" of effective length?

It's unclear if you're agreeing with or disputing what @2ndGearRubber is saying, but yes, a crowfoot at 90 creates an effectively 0 'extended' length and should be accurate to indicated torque on a torque wrench, just like a socket.

The math behind this is well-known/widely used, and can be found on the website of most manufacturers of torque wrenches (or in their catalogues). Tekton has by far the best breakdown/visuals, plus an automated calculator on their website.

 

[Al Borland]

Get the flare wrench set. I've had both for about forever. Might have used the non-flares once, used the flares maybe 2-3 times a year.

 

[racinfarmer]

It's unclear if you're agreeing with or disputing what @2ndGearRubber is saying, but yes, a crowfoot at 90 creates an effectively 0 'extended' length and should be accurate to indicated torque on a torque wrench, just like a socket.

The math behind this is well-known/widely used, and can be found on the website of most manufacturers of torque wrenches (or in their catalogues). Tekton has by far the best breakdown/visuals, plus an automated calculator on their website.

Alrighty.

I'm going to go back to office jockey and do some research.

Doesn't make sense to me I guess.

 

[Al Borland]

It's unclear if you're agreeing with or disputing what @2ndGearRubber is saying, but yes, a crowfoot at 90 creates an effectively 0 'extended' length and should be accurate to indicated torque on a torque wrench, just like a socket.

The math behind this is well-known/widely used, and can be found on the website of most manufacturers of torque wrenches (or in their catalogues). Tekton has by far the best breakdown/visuals, plus an automated calculator on their website.

Actually, no. Basic geometry will tell you that the hypotenuse of the triangle is longer than either leg. On a right triangle, A squared plus B squared equals C squared. Still closer to 12" than extended straight out the front, but not the same.

 

[2Busy]

A few months ago I bought the Napa Evercraft flair nut crows foot sets, both metric and SAE. They were spoken of well here on GJ and for the price (you’ll laugh when you see) I figured I couldn’t go wrong. They’re Taiwan made and appear to be copies of the Carlyle versions that are exponentially more $$’s. Limited use so far but no spreading or rounding detected. I went with the crows feet since I thought they’d be more versatile than wrenches.

PS—at this price you could get both flair and straight crows feet and not have to choose.

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_7740126

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_7740125?impressionRank=1

 

[AdAstra]

Alrighty.

I'm going to go back to office jockey and do some research.

Doesn't make sense to me I guess.

Actually, no. Basic geometry will tell you that the hypotenuse of the triangle is longer than either leg. On a right triangle, A squared plus B squared equals C squared. Still closer to 12" than extended straight out the front, but not the same.

The extreme example of a huge crowfoot and a short torque wrench beam does get into hypotenuse-length-changing territory, but for reasonable sizes of 90° crowfoot and torque wrench, the small angle approximation (where Cosine of a small angle is very close to equal to 1) applies, or in other words the hypotenuse is just about the same length as the next longest side, any error from neglecting this is well within the noise of the other errors happening during torquing a fastener.

Here's a fairly lopsided example for a 2" long crowfoot and 12" torque wrench, results in 1.4% error. https://www.omnicalculator.com/math/right-triangle-side-angle?c=USD&v=given:0,a1:2!inch,b1:12!inch whereas most systems engineered with torque tightening should be assuming the design works with a ±15% or more error.

Even in careful aerospace torque applications, where we measure specific running torque of each fastener with a torque watch and add it to the torque spec before torquing, we'd probably ignore this effect. (If you want something precision tightened, there are better ways.)

(As for the point that theoretically the crowfoot could be infinitely long, that may be true (depending on the torque wrench mechanism) if your direction of force application is kept exactly perpendicular during the tightening, but if there's any user error there, the the effective lever arm changes a lot more quickly vs angular error for a long crowfoot than it does with a zero length crowfoot.)

 

[bubinga]

Amazon has these Sunnex metric set for $22.00.
I was tempted, but not sure how good they are.
Have to watch my money right now too.
Sunex 9708 3/8-Inch Drive Fractional Crowfoot Flare Nut Wrench Set, 3/8-Inch - 7/8-Inch, Fully Polished, 8-Piece https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000LQDBXG/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[2ndGearRubber]

The extreme example of a huge crowfoot and a short torque wrench beam does get into hypotenuse-length-changing territory, but for reasonable sizes of 90° crowfoot and torque wrench, the small angle approximation (where Cosine of a small angle is very close to equal to 1) applies, or the hypotenuse is just about the same length as the next longest side, any error from neglecting this is well within the noise of the other errors happening during torquing a fastener).

Right, my torque adapters are 2 inch length, functionally, as an extension of the drive center.

So while one could get a wildly messed up long torque adapter, that's not really the world most of use work in. When used at 90, the typical crowfoot which moves the drive center 1" left or right isn't going to cause issues. Especially since the average person with a clicker torque wrench isn't super accurate anyways. It's super easy to over.torque by 5% for instance. The 90* angle isn't going to cause issues with the lengths we are talking about for tool length.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Amazon has these Sunnex metric set for $22.00.
I was tempted, but not sure how good they are.
Have to watch my money right now too.
Sunex 9708 3/8-Inch Drive Fractional Crowfoot Flare Nut Wrench Set, 3/8-Inch - 7/8-Inch, Fully Polished, 8-Piece https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000LQDBXG/?tag=atomicindus08-20

That's what i have. They've worked well for a long time.

 

[bubinga]

No, those are standard. Here's the metric.
Sunex 9710M 3/8-Inch Drive Metric Crowfoot Flare Nut Wrench Set, Size-10 - Size 19, 10-Piece https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002SRJF4/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[neersighted]

Even in careful aerospace torque applications, where we measure specific running torque of each fastener and add it to the torque spec, we'd ignore this effect. (If you want something precision tightened, there are better ways.)

The 90* angle isn't going to cause issues with the lengths we are talking about for tool length.

Precisely -- no torque wrench manufacturer of any reputation I am aware of considers common torque wrench accessories like torque adapters or crowfoot wrenches (used at 90 degrees) to be significant sources of error.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Precisely -- no torque wrench manufacturer of any reputation I am aware of considers common torque wrench accessories like torque adapters or crowfoot wrenches (used at 90 degrees) to be significant sources of error.

Ford IIRC has a service bulletin specificing that wobble extensions, roughly 15 degrees, are acceptable for general torque purposes and do not add significant error.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

You whippersnappers don't know what the H E double toothpicks yer talkin' about!

 

[Marsim]

Preference still comes down to the environment you will us it in. I happened to use the flair one today on the rare occasion that it was necessary. Removed a refuel/defuel manifold assembly from a Boeing 737-800. That's a 2" proto. Torque on some of these are so bad that we sometimes use 2 people, a 4 to 6 foot cheater bar and the proto flexes apart (I have no idea why the torque varies so much on these). A regular crows foot slides right off.

 

[Dakotadadv8]

I have the Craftsman SAE and metric set from Lowes. Not a bad price for the sets, used it once. Probably not used often for non professionals but just in case.

 

[Tools4Me]

Hopefully this helps clear things up for anyone who is confused about torque settings. The length of the crowfoot or torque adapter doesn't affect the applied torque setting as long as it comes off the torque wrench head at 90 degrees. The hypotenuse does get longer as the torque adapter gets longer, but that doesn't matter because you are not pushing on the torque wrench handle in a direction perpendicular to the hypotenuse. You always push on the torque wrench handle in a direction perpendicular to the torque wrench's handle, so the effective leverage length always remains the same no matter how long the torque adapter is.

 

[KnurledNut]

You whippersnappers don't know what the H E double toothpicks yer talkin' about!

Nice! Where can I get a metric set?

 

[carmantl]

Ironworker foreman here. we use inch and a quarter, inch &7/16, and inch & 5/8 crow's feet on column baseplate leveling nuts all the time when the butthead architects and structural engineers don't give us any freaking room to get a wrench down into a concrete anchor bolt pocket only about 2 inches larger than the column baseplate. But, HEY, bring it up to them on a walk-thru and they can't wrap their precious heads around what the problem is?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Where can I get a metric set?

Snerk. Like that, cast malleable iron, with hex throats and 1/2-inch male drive tangs, made in 1915? A time machine set to Paris. Maybe. They were made by Charles Miller and I have good reason to believe them to be the oldest detachable crowfoot wrenches ever made. Glad you like them. I though the thread could use a brief respite from the open vs flare debates and the geometry! And apologies to everyone else. It's not every day I get to show them off.

 

[65Goat]

I will be honest, I rarely use the open end of any wrench I've ever owned. I have both combination and flare nut Snap On wrenches. If it's not something I can use a socket on, I use the box end almost exclusively or double box end wrenches.

I'm just not sure which crowfoot style would fit or otherwise be must useful. I definitely won't be buying a cheap set either. I don't want anything to round or spread.

I find it interesting the flare nut set from Snap On is like $100 cheaper than the regular open end style.

^^

 

[Xcursion88]

I'm in the market for a crowfoot wrench set.
I can't decide between a standard open end set or a flare nut end set.
Which would you buy? Which do you own/use? Why?
Please refrain from just saying "buy both". I don't want both. I want one set that's going to work ~90% of the time.

These will be used for general automotive repair use. I don't work on hydraulics or machines/heavy equipment with hydraulics, etc.
They will see primary use as a "replacement/alternative" for a standard combination wrench set (yes, the box end is handled by something else).


Ignore the brand and price for the purpose of this thread. Snap On is only being used as an example.

Snap-on Store

shop.snapon.com

Snap-on Store

shop.snapon.com

Flare and you don't want to hear this but I can tell you....and we make a lot of brake lines here at the shop...

Flare style on the crow foot wrench and ...yes and...
add a set of angled wrenches like these...

Snap-on Store

shop.snapon.com

Nearly a must if you want to keep sanity if you're doing a lot of brake lines especially on the Tahoe/Silverado/Suburban (and it's GMC counterpart) ABS unit.

You usually don't have to replace all lines at an ABS unit so with the other lines in the road these angled wrenches are such the life saver. Flank drive plus as well.

Good luck

 

[bb29510]

only thing i use crowfoot for, is for checking rebar. a 5/8 is a number 5 rebar. hide it in the palm of my hand.
" hey you see that ballgame last night"

 

[richfinn]

Always used my flare style crowsfeet on awkward tube nuts, Diesel injectors, fuel, brake and steering lines.

Never saw a need for the regular version working on small passenger cars.

I suspect the bigger sized non flare style work good on machinery/plant where big long open end spanners would be a PITA and the risk of spreading is minimal

 

[Skiff Builder]

Picked up this set to keep onboard the boat. They work and cost was reasonable( over board or lost in bilge not a big deal)
I can grind off the tips if they were in the way.
$33 Amazon

https://www.crescenttool.com/produc...1n-10-pc-38-drive-flare-nut-metric-wrench-set

 

[visionguru]

I'm in the market for a crowfoot wrench set.
I can't decide between a standard open end set or a flare nut end set.
Which would you buy? Which do you own/use? Why?

Standard open end seems more versatile. It's slightly easier to put on the bolts in hard to access places.

I own ICON metric standard set and a few Snap On 12pt flare nuts.
The ICON set turns out to be super useful for me. None of my very recent 3 uses involve pipes:

• Torquing engine mount bolts
• Torquing swaybar link bolts
• Torquing tie-rod lock nuts

ICON set is quite nice, probably better quality than any non-truck brands mentioned in this thread.

 

[hailwood1965]

I've had a full set of really nice Craftsman crows feet since 1990 or 1991. I have never used them.

 

[bubinga]

I've had a full set of really nice Craftsman crows feet since 1990 or 1991. I have never used them.

I'll bet those are nice.

 

[mikeinri]

Wow, this thread is extremely helpful. I'm getting ready to replace some hydraulic lines on my Terramite T5C backhoe and logsplitter (two separate machines).

I've been leaning towards flare style (I despise open wrenches due to rounding off a million fasteners up here in the rust belt over the years), but will take a closer look at access based on the comments here.

Some of these (mainly on the backhoe) will need a crows foot, with a ratchet extension (or several) to reach. I'm sure the amount of twist that will introduce would make a torque wrench pointless?

Take a look at these pics, showing a leaking 1/2 inch hose in the backhoe. The leaky end of this hose is easy to access (well, if you don't consider the somewhat limited space to swing a wrench). But, the other end is buried behind / below the filter. Yes, I plan to remove the filter, but the pump (red) will still be in the way.



And, this is the bottom of the steering box. These fittings are pretty close to one another, and the whole thing is stuffed into a tight corner. One of these hoses is chafing outside the viewing area.



Some other fun areas to reach [tank return hoses (one is the other end of the chafed steering hose mentioned above) and leaking hoses at the loader valve].



Mike

 

[yellowbox]

For "general automotive repair " you won't use em very often , don't get a crazy expensive set

 

[bwringer]

I have a set of the flares.

If you're in a bad situation where you're breaking these things out, there's never enough clearance to the sides for a regular CF to fit.

Also, the 12 point construction is helpful when things get that cramped; more available angles.

My primary usage is tight access to nuts and bolts; I rarely if ever deal with hydraulic lines. YMMV, of course.

 

[yellowbox]

I used one on a VW inner tie rod end. None of the tie rod removers could fit over it properly to break it loose. Bought a Tekton crowsfoot wrench, used an extension, and it worked like a charm. It was the only way to get it off without dropping the subframe again.

I hate Volkswagens.

Me too....

 

[mikeinri]

I have a set of the flares.

If you're in a bad situation where you're breaking these things out, there's never enough clearance to the sides for a regular CF to fit.

Also, the 12 point construction is helpful when things get that cramped; more available angles.

My primary usage is tight access to nuts and bolts; I rarely if ever deal with hydraulic lines. YMMV, of course.

Can you post a pic (or make / model number) your set?

Mike

 

[2ndGearRubber]

For the hydraulic lines you're unlikely to get a traditional flare-nut crowfoot on over the soft line itself. It's too wide vs in area that the flare nut crowfoot has cut out.

 

[MJK]

I'm just a DIY garage hack, but for my money get flare nut and get good ones. You will use them as infrequently as possible, but when you do need them it is A) because it is a PITA to get to something which means B) its probably been there a good long while and C) you really don't want to mess that fastener up. Good side of flares is they stay where they are put better. They are a little more fiddly to use.

Last time I used mine it was on a 28 year old ABS pump that I really did not want to mess up the lines on. Thankfully, I did not. Mine are a combo of SO and old CM USA. Ebay is a great place to pick up lightly used sets for a good price.

 

[ihateminimumwage]

Like 2ndGear said; Flare nut crowfeet are no good on those hydraulic hoses. They work for fittings with metal lines, but won't fit over the hose or crimps. You'll need open ends.

 

[mikeinri]

For the hydraulic lines you're unlikely to get a traditional flare-nut crowfoot on over the soft line itself. It's too wide vs in area that the flare nut crowfoot has cut out.

Like 2ndGear said; Flare nut crowfeet are no good on those hydraulic hoses. They work for fittings with metal lines, but won't fit over the hose or crimps. You'll need open ends.

Thanks guys, REALLY glad I posted the pics with the questions!

@2ndGearRubber: Is there a "non-traditional" type that I should be looking at?

Mike

 

[WWheeler]

No, those are standard. Here's the metric.
Sunex 9710M 3/8-Inch Drive Metric Crowfoot Flare Nut Wrench Set, Size-10 - Size 19, 10-Piece https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002SRJF4/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Biggest issue I have with Sunex's crowfoot sets are they are lacking the indentations in the square drive hole for the detent ball on a ratchet or extension. I generally prefer to use a locking extension with a crowfoot so it won't come off but their lack of that common machining rendered that useless so I immediately returned the crowfoot flare nut set I got.

 

[WWheeler]

Like 2ndGear said; Flare nut crowfeet are no good on those hydraulic hoses. They work for fittings with metal lines, but won't fit over the hose or crimps. You'll need open ends.

Thanks guys, REALLY glad I posted the pics with the questions!

@2ndGearRubber: Is there a "non-traditional" type that I should be looking at?

Mike

Regular Crowfoot wrenches, that don't have the flare nut ends are what you'd want for those but I'd also add to that a set of 30/60 degree angle wrenches. I would hate to have to go after some of those with only a set of crowfoots.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Thanks guys, REALLY glad I posted the pics with the questions!

@2ndGearRubber: Is there a "non-traditional" type that I should be looking at?

Mike

For the ones with hoses, not that I know of. Your limiting factor is always the size of the opening on the crowfoot. And on a flare nut crowfoot, that's rarely more than the width of one flat on the wrench.

There IS a very expensive option which is basically a deep socket milled into a crowfoot. Snap on and koken make them. About $75/ea from snap on.

Snap-on Store

shop.snapon.com

That's more for your third picture, to remove and install the inner most line without touching the others.

Regular Crowfoot wrenches, that don't have the flare nut ends are what you'd want for those but I'd also add to that a set of 30/60 degree angle wrenches. I would hate to have to go after some of those with only a set of crowfoots.

This is the way. For that application 30/60 angle wrenches, plus your combos, plus open end crowfeet on a 3/8 breaker bar would be my choices.