Help me think this out re Generator

[Jsf721]

Please help me think this out from a safety and economic stanpoint.

I have had several contractors quote me on a full house auto transfer back up generator. I have been quoted $ 15,000 for all trenching, permitting, electrial, gas, pad pour and installation with a 20KW unit, in an enclosure, full auto transfer switch, sub pannel install, service upgrade to existing box, repair service to house and install remote "service" lights and 3 year no charge service and 1 oil change per year NC.

I did get a slightly better price from another vendor but his references did not make me feel like I wanted to deal with him.

--------------------------------------
Fast foreward to last night. My neighbor just hooked up a portable Guardian 17,500KW generator to his house, with a Natural gas conversion kit, and a manual transfer switch. He has an enclosure made of vented craftsman mini shed designed for 3 garbage pails I believe. he installed the vents himself.
He fired it up, threw the switch and all looked good.

All in he is under $ 5,000 and can run just about everything in the house within reason.

Main difference in this senario is I need to throw the switch, hook up gas line which is not a big deal but if I am traveling the Wife/Kids will need to get involved. That when it gets to be a big deal.

My Biggest question/concern is, is this a safe set up to run? We had 12 days without power (Hurricane Sandy) and I ran a similar unit on gasoline (hard to get) and jumped the power meter to energize the panel box. I had enough power and was using 15,000KW Gardian unit. Do you think keeping this hooked up, all the time to NG is damgerous (Or against the law?).

So, it this a good solution? Would save me some $ and I would not have to deal with all the permitt issues?

Have a great weekend and......

As always, Thanks!

 

[LEVE]

Keep it simple. Buy a used Prius and wire it up as a generator. It's way more efficient... unless you hate the Prius.

Use a Toyota Prius as a Backup Generator

The above will give you an idea of the project... but there are many, many more ways of doing the job.

 

[RickP]

Your contractor included a lot of extras in his price, but the main difference might be the cost of the generator. If he quoted a liquid cooled generator, that would be more than double the price of a 14kw air-cooled unit. I had this one installed:

The cost of a 14kW Generac is about $3,400, plus labor.
The cost of a 20kW Generac is about $4,500, plus labor.
They both include an automatic transfer switch, so your family should be good to go if you're traveling. Ours has been working well for eight years.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Main difference in this senario is I need to throw the switch, hook up gas line which is not a big deal but if I am traveling the Wife/Kids will need to get involved. That when it gets to be a big deal.

Only you know your wife's capabilities. If I walked my wife through the starting procedure and had her write it down I would feel comfortable. Make multiple copies of the instructions. Put the in individual zip lock bags. Attach one on the main breaker panel, Attach one to the generator.

My Biggest question/concern is, is this a safe set up to run?

Yes.

Do you think keeping this hooked up, all the time to NG is damgerous (Or against the law?).

It would use the same flexible gas connection that they use for BBQ grills. There would be a shut off valve at the house which will have to be turned on.

2 things you need to consider

1. Is the NG line to the house big enough ? Over 10KW you might need a bigger line from the street. The contractors include that in their quote ?
2. If you are going portable, you would have to mount this close to the house and build some kind of enclosure for weather and noise. These things are loud.

Your contractor included a lot of extras in his price, but the main difference might be the cost of the generator. If he quoted a liquid cooled generator, that would be more than double the price of a 14kw air-cooled unit.

ABSOLUTELY !


I have a couple of questions. I'm guessing you have A/C and want enough power to run it. Any other large electric appliances (stove, water heater, dryer) ? Changing them to run on NG would greatly reduce your KW requirement.

The last issue goes back to how much automatic versus manual start up you are willing to deal with. I am not a fan of automatic transfer boxes because they are so overpriced ! The inexpensive solution is a generator interlock installed in you existing main breaker panel.

With an interlock and a portable generator, your startup procedure would be something like this.

• Connect NG line (if not already connected) and open valve.
• Connect power cord to house.
• Start generator.
• In the house at the main breaker panel, turn off main breaker.
• Move interlock to prevent main breaker from accidentally being turned on.
• Turn on generator feed breaker.

 

[FJ 432]

I will chime in because I work for a general contractor who installs generators for data centers. I will say you're getting a good deal with the 3 year service. It sounds like he also has to do additional work on your service.

You're not getting a GREAT deal but I don't think you're getting ripped off.

 

[JerryC]

The standby gen is easy and should add some value to your home. It may add to your property taxes. If the natural gas is shut off you have no generator.

The portable is more work to fire up and the wife might not want to mess with it. You could still use gasoline if natural gas is shut down. Much less expensive. If you leave the gas line connected but shut off that would simplify the portable gen a lot for your wife.

 

[Jsf721]

What is involved in converting to gasoline if the NG is shut off?

Can this be done on the fly or is it more involved.

The standby gen is easy and should add some value to your home. It may add to your property taxes. If the natural gas is shut off you have no generator.

The portable is more work to fire up and the wife might not want to mess with it. You could still use gasoline if natural gas is shut down. Much less expensive. If you leave the gas line connected but shut off that would simplify the portable gen a lot for your wife.

 

[Speedy Petey]

You CANNOT simply switch over to gasoline if the Nat goes out. Unless of course the genset is tri-fuel to begin with.

 

[Speedy Petey]

The cost of a 14kW Generac is about $3,400, plus labor.
The cost of a 20kW Generac is about $4,500, plus labor.
They both include an automatic transfer switch, so your family should be good to go if you're traveling. Ours has been working well for eight years.

Wow. You are over-simplifying it just a bit.

What about the wiring and raceways for between the tranfer and genset?
What about the service cabling between the meter/transfer/panel?

It is quite a bit more than just buying the things and setting it in place.

 

[thammel]

I installed my Winco 8kw for less than $3500. It has an auto transfer switch and powers everything except the central AC. My house has about 3100 ft^2 of area. It is powered off propane... we already had a 500 gallon buried tank.

Tom

 

[RickP]

Wow. You are over-simplifying it just a bit.

What about the wiring and raceways for between the tranfer and genset?
What about the service cabling between the meter/transfer/panel?

It is quite a bit more than just buying the things and setting it in place.

I'm pretty sure all that wiring is included with those two models I linked to - heck, they even come pre-wired with armored flex cable between the Genset and the transfer switch! Sorry if I'm misunderstanding your post though. (I realize that's not typical for other brands, but for Generac, they're pretty all-inclusive for materials.)

I'm looking at my own Generac, and the installer did have to provide gas pipe, and also one short piece of conduit between the transfer switch and my panel, but that's only about 6 inches long. Even the wires between the transfer switch and the panel are pre-labeled. There's definitely quite a bit of labor that goes into one of these installs, but almost all of the material is included for the Generac units.


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[koditten]

What are you running that you need a 20k unit? My 14k runs my entire house, including the central air. 3 years ago I had the entire thing installed for $5600.

The auto switching is worth it to me. I don't want to deal with lugging a portable unit and doing the switching myself. the wife will want nothing to do with setting up a portable unit.

I don't think the standby gen set offers any increased value to your home. It may make it sell faster though.

KO

 

[RickP]

I did link to the wrong Generac model - they are available with pre-wired transfer switches for some models. Here's a pre-wired 17kW unit for $3,700:
http://homedepot.com/p/Generac-17-0...-with-100-Amp-Transfer-Switch-5873/202214405/


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[sselander]

As a side note,
did your place get flooded? You may want consider elevating the whole house generator. The rebuilt houses near me have had the homes elevated with the air conditioners and generators elevated as well. I am sure they had to re-locate the furnaces as well. You cannot have power if the generator is under water.

 

[theoldwizard1]

What is involved in converting to gasoline if the NG is shut off?

Can this be done on the fly or is it more involved.

Most (all?) of the permanent installations can NOT be converted to gasoline.

Portables generators start out as gasoline and even after they are converted, they can still run on gasoline with a simple flip of the lever.

 

[Speedy Petey]

I'm pretty sure all that wiring is included with those two models I linked to - heck, they even come pre-wired with armored flex cable between the Genset and the transfer switch! ......................
There's definitely quite a bit of labor that goes into one of these installs, but almost all of the material is included for the Generac units.

It's obvious you only know what you had done, or what you are reading on the internet. This is not to insult you, but to prove you aren't aware of what goes into one of these installs.

A pre-wired transfer PANEL comes pretty much with everything.
A main transfer switch needs to be wired into the home's service entrance. Pretty much NOTHING comes with that setup, other than the genset and transfer switch. ALL the control wiring and service cable/conduit wiring must be provided and installed in the field.
It is a FAR different install than the pre-wired panel type.

 

[RickP]

Quote:

A pre-wired transfer PANEL comes pretty much with everything.
A main transfer switch needs to be wired into the home's service entrance. Pretty much NOTHING comes with that setup, other than the genset and transfer switch. ALL the control wiring and service cable/conduit wiring must be provided and installed in the field.
It is a FAR different install than the pre-wired panel type.

Thank you -- I didn't realize I was using the wrong name for it. I have the prewired panel, and I didn't realize the transfer switch was a completely different beast. Thanks for the clarification -- I appreciate it.


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[Doug1]

You CANNOT simply switch over to gasoline if the Nat goes out. Unless of course the genset is tri-fuel to begin with.

Most can be easily converted to propane. So get a big ole propane tank as a backup in case the NG gets cut off.

 

[shovel]

I just went through this dilemma myself. I live on the upper Texas Gulf coast. The company I work for offered a Hurricane season discount on Generac portable or standby generators up to 20 kw. After figuring out what it would cost to add the transfer switch, electrical and gas hookups, and mounting slab for a 17 or 20kw unit: $5500 to $6000 total cost.
I opted out. If a hurricane hit my area, it is as likely for my house (and new generator) to be flooded or a tree fall and wipe either one out. If and when the hurricane happens, I will buy a Miller Bobcat or Trailblazer welding machine to power my home. I hoard gasoline each year during hurricane season, so I would have enough to get by. Not a perfect solution, but I dont want to spend $6 grand for something I hope I never need and have to maintain from now on. Everybody situation is different, and for some of us, a standby generator makes sense. I have a 5500 watt portable generator that will run a small window unit air conditioner and the refrigerator. As far as a bigger unit; Not for me at this time...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Please help me think this out from a safety and economic stanpoint.

I have had several contractors quote me on a full house auto transfer back up generator. I have been quoted $ 15,000 for all trenching, permitting, electrial, gas, pad pour and installation with a 20KW unit, in an enclosure, full auto transfer switch, sub pannel install, service upgrade to existing box, repair service to house and install remote "service" lights and 3 year no charge service and 1 oil change per year NC.

I did get a slightly better price from another vendor but his references did not make me feel like I wanted to deal with him.

--------------------------------------
Fast foreward to last night. My neighbor just hooked up a portable Guardian 17,500KW generator to his house, with a Natural gas conversion kit, and a manual transfer switch. He has an enclosure made of vented craftsman mini shed designed for 3 garbage pails I believe. he installed the vents himself.
He fired it up, threw the switch and all looked good.

All in he is under $ 5,000 and can run just about everything in the house within reason.

Main difference in this senario is I need to throw the switch, hook up gas line which is not a big deal but if I am traveling the Wife/Kids will need to get involved. That when it gets to be a big deal.

My Biggest question/concern is, is this a safe set up to run? We had 12 days without power (Hurricane Sandy) and I ran a similar unit on gasoline (hard to get) and jumped the power meter to energize the panel box. I had enough power and was using 15,000KW Gardian unit. Do you think keeping this hooked up, all the time to NG is damgerous (Or against the law?).

So, it this a good solution? Would save me some $ and I would not have to deal with all the permitt issues?

Have a great weekend and......

As always, Thanks!

The red flag i saw here is in bold! U said u jumped the meter to energize the panel?? I hope u didn't do what i think u did!!

U also said that the quote included repairing your main service! What is wrong with your service that the contractor noticed needed to be fixed?

 

[Speedy Petey]

Most can be easily converted to propane. So get a big ole propane tank as a backup in case the NG gets cut off.

NOT is if it a standby unit, nor if it is a portable that was not designed for it.

 

[Doug1]

NOT is if it a standby unit, nor if it is a portable that was not designed for it.

I guess I don't know the difference. I have just been looking at the Genracs and other whole house generators and most say propane or natural gas with conversion kit. Not sure what the conversion kits do, so maybe someone with more experience than I can explain what changes are needed to switch between the two in the type of generator I described.

I am concerned that the natural gas might get shut off in a hurricane so I'd like the ability to shut the NG valve off, unhook it and convert the unit to propane and hook it up to a big tank if needed. Don't know if that is all that feasible to getting a good sized tank filled and ready to go, so it is just an idea.

 

[IONH]

No matter what, have your neighbors chip in. The first year you install a generator you will most likely not even need it and be questioning why you bought it to begin with!

Kidding, I have no statistics to back that up.

I bought a B&S 9000 watt portable Elite unit and wired up a generator plug behind my garage last fall. Didn't have my power even blip last winter. Manual cut over for me and I have a numbered checklist sitting at every power panel and taped to the side of the generator.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I guess I don't know the difference. I have just been looking at the Genracs and other whole house generators and most say propane or natural gas with conversion kit. Not sure what the conversion kits do, so maybe someone with more experience than I can explain what changes are needed to switch between the two in the type of generator I described.

I am concerned that the natural gas might get shut off in a hurricane so I'd like the ability to shut the NG valve off, unhook it and convert the unit to propane and hook it up to a big tank if needed. Don't know if that is all that feasible to getting a good sized tank filled and ready to go, so it is just an idea.

I think the jets need to be changed in the carborator but im not positive!

 

[Jsf721]

Well, I was in crisis mode durring the hurricane. I had 4 families living and my block showering and doing laundry in my home. I had a charging station set up in my garage and Kitchen for people to charge their cell phone, laptops and recharable battereis. All they needed to bring was their charger and plug into the power strip. I had peoples medications in my fridge and had people sleeping all over the house. This went on for at least 12 days of no power and many days after until repairs were made to their homes. My wife was a trooper but it gets old really fast. I went to work, came home lunch time to feed the generator. She had to stay home and "entertain" people that are not "friends" and many that are noice but not even helpful.

At one point after day 10, she just wanted everyone to go to a hotel or have us leave and go to a hotel (they were booked). There were bodies everywhere. When we got the power back up, the house was throughly cleaned and disinfected-LOL.

I had a licensed electrician "jump" the pannel and also put it back to normal when the power came on. I want to get set up properly before that happens again and I realize that it was totally not to code but under the circumstances I did it.

I was lucky, I have no basemant and most of my block does. They had wet pannel boxes and no option of getting anything up and running. I needed to step up.

On that sunday night after the storm I made close to 100 hamburgers and hot dogs. The local BJs had power and we have a NG BBQ. It became a nightly thing that families would use my BBQ for cooking and my showers (we had hot water), heat and electricity.

Needless to say, I Made alot of friends that week. Also made some enimies but that is a story for another post.

The red flag i saw here is in bold! U said u jumped the meter to energize the panel?? I hope u didn't do what i think u did!!

U also said that the quote included repairing your main service! What is wrong with your service that the contractor noticed needed to be fixed?

 

[davidlee]

When I installed my 23kw diesel generator I had to replace my main service panel because it did not have a main breaker to isolate it from the incoming power service. I chose not to use a automatic transfer switch because of price. I can run my whole house ( 11 tons of A\C total) without issues.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I think the jets need to be changed in the carborator but im not positive!

Yes, the "conversion kit" is basically different size jets for NG versus propane.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If you decide to go with a portable unit, I strongly suggest you get a generator interlock kit installed on you main panel. Check into it FIRST before you buy a generator !

It is the simplest and cheapest option for installation. Very easy to operate. Any kid who knows how to reset a tripped breaker could operate an interlock.

 

[Speedy Petey]

I guess I don't know the difference. I have just been looking at the Genracs and other whole house generators and most say propane or natural gas with conversion kit. Not sure what the conversion kits do, so maybe someone with more experience than I can explain what changes are needed to switch between the two in the type of generator I described.

Sorry. I was confused.

To change a Generac from nat to LP is as easy as flipping a switch. I though the reference was changing from LP to gasoline.

 

[koditten]

No matter what, have your neighbors chip in. The first year you install a generator you will most likely not even need it and be questioning why you bought it to begin with!

Kidding, I have no statistics to back that up.

I bought a B&S 9000 watt portable Elite unit and wired up a generator plug behind my garage last fall. Didn't have my power even blip last winter. Manual cut over for me and I have a numbered checklist sitting at every power panel and taped to the side of the generator.

Boy, if that ain't the truth. I went 4 years before mine was actually needed.

9:30 on a hot summer night after a major thunderstorm went thru, the power finally went out. When it got fully dark 45 minutes later I turned every light in the house and stood on my deck looking stupidly smug drinking a beer. Its fun looking at all the neighbors' houses being dark and yours lit up like Chrismas.

I do have to admit when that transfer switch activated, it scared the **** out of me! That sounded like a cabinet in the basement fell over. I had forgot that when the gennie does its exercise run every week, the transfer switch is not thrown. I had never heard it before that

 

[theoldwizard1]

No matter what, have your neighbors chip in. The first year you install a generator you will most likely not even need it and be questioning why you bought it to begin with!

Kidding, I have no statistics to back that up.

I bought a B&S 9000 watt portable Elite unit and wired up a generator plug behind my garage last fall. Didn't have my power even blip last winter. Manual cut over for me and I have a numbered checklist sitting at every power panel and taped to the side of the generator.

I bought a Craftsman 5600 watt generator (looks almost identical to a lot of other; likely made by B&S) from a neighbor (he had 2 after his father died). Of course this was after the Northeast blackout of 2003 and you are right, I had never needed it since then !

I haul it out every month or 2, fire it up and put a load on it/