Help me understand Pole Barns

[Mr. D]

I have been looking at pole barn projects and just don't understand the benefit over conventional stick structure. I can understand the concept if keeping a dirt or gravel floor but pouring a concrete slab is not clicking in my brain.

If your going to pour a concrete slab why not just pour a slab and build a stick structure, seems to me you end up with the same thing and cost shoule be about the same.

What am I missing??????

BTW: I'm looking to build a 40W x 30D x 12H shop to restore cars in.

 

[bczygan]

Cheaper.

Generally designed to be clear span with light roof and no ceiling load. Loads are transferred into the ground through the columns which leaves the spaces between the columns flexible for openings.

Standard stick construction has roof construction that will support ceilings better but the roof structure is more expensive. Outside walls are load bearing so header beams are needed to transfer loads around openings. Openings can go anywhere since no perimeter columns.

I prefer stick built, especially for the size you are proposing. I don't like wood used as a material at grade.

 

[nomuffintop]

Less maintenance

 

[rsanter]

You seem to understand it just fine

Bob

 

[12valve]

The other advantage of pouring the floor afterwards is that you do not have to build forms. The wall sheeting is the edge of the form.

 

[CNGsaves]

It may depend on WHEN you actually put in that concrete floor and make it into an actual garage!!

Many taxing districts will deem a "Pole Barn" as a temporary structure, or at least Less of a structure for taxing purposes than a full blown garage with footings and concrete floor.

If you were to get your permit signoff in "Phase 1" when just the pole barn with sides and roof (ie no garage door and still dirt floor), you would likely get much lower tax assessment.

Build the "Phase 2" which is rest of garage with concrete floor, garage door, etc. later and it actually becomes a normal garage.

Farmers here in KS typically have lots of true pole barns (ie low taxes), but I'm sure some of those have been ultimately converted to actual garages.

Personally, I'd rather have full blown footings/floor poured first if eventually I'm planning on garage anyway with either steel or wood framing.

I think "City site" with build using Pole Barn technique strictly done for cheaper overall cost due to quck and easy build.

 

[Jack Olsen]

In summary: Cheaper. More flexible. Less 'permanent.'

Although they can also be made more expensive, less flexible and very permanent.

 

[offroadsteve]

I haven't done a detailed cost comparison, but based on the different materials required (6x6 posts and big headers for a pole barn, 2x studs for stick-built) I would suspect that there is a break-even point on cost based on the size of the building. I suspect smaller buildings with normal height ceilings (such as your 40 x 30 x 12 example) are going to be cheaper to stick-build, which larger structures (more barn-size) with higher celings (15-20 feet) will be cheaper with "post and beam" construction.

I think either is acceptable for nearly any size building that you would reasonably build out of wood, it just comes down to what is more economical in your area.

 

[jives]

The lumber cost for a typical stick vs. pole building is about the same. The difference,
as you have already pointed out, is the foundation. Stick built must have some sort
of foundation (even if built on piers), whereas the pole building only needs the poles
stuck in the ground.

I would not go to the expense of putting poles in the ground and then follow with a concrete slab. I'd add a bit more expense up front and put the poles on concrete piers
or "Permacolumns".

Jeff in Enfield NY

 

[1953mercury]

The lumber cost for a typical stick vs. pole building is about the same. The difference,
as you have already pointed out, is the foundation. Stick built must have some sort
of foundation (even if built on piers), whereas the pole building only needs the poles
stuck in the ground.

I would not go to the expense of putting poles in the ground and then follow with a concrete slab. I'd add a bit more expense up front and put the poles on concrete piers
or "Permacolumns".

Jeff in Enfield NY

When the holes for the poles are dug they should be mushroomed at the bottom and set in concrete. Not having to do footers and stem-walls is a big savings. Mike

 

[383 240z]

I ended up pouring a slab in the pole building that was on my property when I bought it. Given the chance to do it all again. I would go stick built. My reasoning is, not only did I have to have a slab poured, I also had to go back and frame between the posts for walls. and run wiring. Keith

 

[Mr. D]

I ended up pouring a slab in the pole building that was on my property when I bought it. Given the chance to do it all again. I would go stick built. My reasoning is, not only did I have to have a slab poured, I also had to go back and frame between the posts for walls. and run wiring. Keith

Bingo and as Jeff stated "The lumber cost for a typical stick vs. pole building is about the same".

I have thought this through everyway I can and for some reason just don't see the benefit of a pole barn. I live in the sticks so taxes are very low and permits are not required except for a perk test and septic tank plans if I plan to install a bathroom which would be nice.

 

[383 240z]

The ONLY upside I found was you can get dried in, faster with a pole barn. Keith

 

[Old Moparz]

I think the biggest difference is going to be in the type of foundation required for the stick built, which may be dictated by your soil conditions, the load it carries & where the frost line is in your region. This is where the cost difference will vary quite a bit. Here in NY the bottom of the footing needs to be 42" deep. I know two people near me who built 24' x 24' stick-built, garages that were just slabs with haunched, thickened edges with no footing. As far as I know they have never had any trouble.

In 1996 I priced a continous footing & foundation wall for my 24' x 36', two story garage, & had prices at $7000, $8500 & $16,000 with a floor slab from 3 contractors. This didn't include the excavation & backfill which would run another $1000 or so. Instead of killing my entire budget on the foundation I redesigned the building as a pole barn. I did have to build a small retaining wall at one end for the pole barn, auger 18 holes with a 12" footing in the bottom & spent $1000 for the concrete floor, but I saved at least 40% on the entire cost of the building.

 

[RPH]

Easier to build. Most pole barns go up very fast saving on labor. The footing issue has been covered quite well here.

 

[flippin]

I have been fascinated by the pole barn construction threads. Thank you all for taking the time to document and share your experience. My only question is; "are the poles treated before they are secured in the ground?" My greatest fear is wood rot over time. and "how do pole barns last in cold climates like Minnesota? Is frost heaves impactful?"

 

[Chetter]

I built a pole barn as my garage back in 1996 and for me, it saved me a ton of money and time. I put my poles down close to 48" and they are sitting on a solid concrete block. A friend of mine worked with me on it and it is 24x32 with 10ft ceilings. As for wiring, it was no problem since I did the wiring before I put the styrofoam panels between the girders and then covered the inside with 1/2" osb, primed and painted the walls white. Total cost back then was just under 10,000.00 and that was electrical, concrete, roofing, one 16x8 door, one 9x8 door, insulated the ceiling, and vinyl siding over the whole thing. I would of ate most my budget with just getting the foundation and concrete poured since I didn't have the equipment to excavate or the know how to lay concrete block and that just wasn't an option at that time. I have had zero problems with this building and yes, I would do it the same way again it I had to.

 

[Chetter]

I have been fascinated by the pole barn construction threads. Thank you all for taking the time to document and share your experience. My only question is; "are the poles treated before they are secured in the ground?" My greatest fear is wood rot over time. and "how do pole barns last in cold climates like Minnesota? Is frost heaves impactful?"

Look at all the barns in this country that are more than 50-100 years old and older that are still standing if they are maintained. My old garage that I took down to put up my new one was a foundation and stick type. I believe if you grade the soil around the outside so that the water does not sit around it all the time there will be no problems. Pressure treated poles set in concrete and the bottoms of the poles can be covered a tar substance to help protect the poles.

 

[denis4x4]

I built this pole barn in 1996 and used 2" steel black pipe with saddles for 4" X 6" beams to set the trusses. Pipes were wrapped and had spikes put in them before the concrete was poured. This was a 20' x 50' structure used to store hay. After the horses were sold, poured a concrete floor and enclosed it. Also put a 12' X 24' room on the side to house my BB gun collection. Lights are offset so that I can store my motorhome or Airstream with out hitting anything.

 

[cyamaha2007]

My 36x56x14h was about half the cost of stick framed all said and done. Even if you pour a slab you still dont need footings. Another thing you dont need to stud it out to finish. Just run horizontal boards around the inside and attach your osb/drywall to that. I have about 23k in my barn and it has a 8in+ concrete floor, 200 amp service, 1ft overhangs on all sides, insulated ceiling, 30 t-8 8ft fixtures.

 

[Mr. D]

Cyamaha, that is a nice shop for $23K or $11.40 sq ft.

 

[cyamaha2007]

To be fair all the work was performed by me so the labor cost was nothing. The only exception was a few concrete finishers. We did the labor part and let them do the final floating.

 

[mdkingsley]

I did a pole barn because that was mainly what I was familiar with on our farm and I did it in sections as I had the money. I liked the steel truss it gives a lot of ceiling room without stick built trusses. Mine is 12 on center posts with 2x6 Perlins to attach the metal to. I built a lot of building with a lot of concrete the downside is the posts on the inside but it separates the inside into bays for projects.

 

[coljar]

In my case, it was 1/2 the cost of the quoted price of a stick built garage. Here is a picture of the "Permacolumns" that were mentioned earlier. I didn't want wood in the ground.

[/IMG]

 

[CNGsaves]

Those Permacolumns are the Real Deal . . . nice permanent solution!!

Coljar, do you have thread for entire build of your garage? I'd like to see more pics.

Also curious if anyone has gone to expense of that first horizontal board at ground level to be a Trex composite board that would last forever??

 

[coljar]

Those Permacolumns are the Real Deal . . . nice permanent solution!!

Coljar, do you have thread for entire build of your garage? I'd like to see more pics.

Also curious if anyone has gone to expense of that first horizontal board at ground level to be a Trex composite board that would last forever??

I am in the process of putting a build thread together, but I've misplaced some pictures I want to use and I want to include my 20's era gas station/garage next door because I have some equipment that's original to the building and material for parts of the building was from a train station that dates back to Civil War times. It's restoration will have to wait until after my new garage is completely done, but doesn't mean we can't look at some things in there now.

 

[Sureshot]

I thoroughly researched it when I built mine in 2000. There are many buildings around here that are 30 and 40 yrs old with no post problems. I put up the building and left it dirt floor for 1 year so I had the time and money to do it right.

As for finishing I think you need to get rid of the idea of vertical studs and embrace the horizontal strapping every 2'. No more worrying about hitting the stud. If it is real heavy I lag it into the post. I have 6' OC and the insulation bats sit in perfect.

We added an adition and have a 6' opening between the two shops. Was super easy to make and finish the opening. Wiring is also super simple to run.

I wouldn't hesitate to do another.

 

[Daniel Dudley]

I think the biggest difference is going to be in the type of foundation required for the stick built, which may be dictated by your soil conditions, the load it carries & where the frost line is in your region. This is where the cost difference will vary quite a bit. Here in NY the bottom of the footing needs to be 42" deep. I know two people near me who built 24' x 24' stick-built, garages that were just slabs with haunched, thickened edges with no footing. As far as I know they have never had any trouble.

In 1996 I priced a continous footing & foundation wall for my 24' x 36', two story garage, & had prices at $7000, $8500 & $16,000 with a floor slab from 3 contractors. This didn't include the excavation & backfill which would run another $1000 or so. Instead of killing my entire budget on the foundation I redesigned the building as a pole barn. I did have to build a small retaining wall at one end for the pole barn, auger 18 holes with a 12" footing in the bottom & spent $1000 for the concrete floor, but I saved at least 40% on the entire cost of the building.

This. I poured a 26x30 slab for my original barn in 97. $ 1000.00 for site prep and 0ver 2000 $ for concrete. If I had gone with full footings and foundation walls, the price would have been much greater. When I put a pole shed of 22x26 on the side, I built the whole structure and roofed it for less than that, with a a gravel floor.

A few years later I added thick concrete for 1000 dollars. I am very satisfied with both structures. For the money, especially labor, you get a lot from a pole barn. If you price out a pole barn from a company that specializes in them, sometimes it is a real eye opener when compared to a stick built.

If you are doing it yourself on a slab, on relatively level ground, Probably I would go with stick built. But I find pole barns to be accessible and cost effective on many levels.

 

[justanengineer]

My greatest fear is wood rot over time. and "how do pole barns last in cold climates like Minnesota? Is frost heaves impactful?"

Look at all the barns in this country that are more than 50-100 years old and older that are still standing if they are maintained.

^^^This. Every older barn Ive ever been in has been on a foundation - concrete and rock, not a pole barn. IME, pole barns dont last worth a **** if theyre unheated, esp in the colder/wetter climates. 20-30 years max unless theyre heated, which can stretch things out quite a bit due to the drying effect of it. The perma-form idea is an interesting way to get around having a foundation, but even in that instance I would still be concerned about heaving if its not heated for any length of time.

 

[Mr. D]

I will re-think this whole pole barn thing as my first priority in this project is cost.

 

[pmiranda]

If you're on clay or other soils that have alot of expansion with moisture, it seems like just pouring a slab without a foundation would give you alot of problems down the road... especially if you want to put in a 2-post lift?

 

[Stuart in MN]

I have been fascinated by the pole barn construction threads. Thank you all for taking the time to document and share your experience. My only question is; "are the poles treated before they are secured in the ground?" My greatest fear is wood rot over time. and "how do pole barns last in cold climates like Minnesota? Is frost heaves impactful?"

Pole barns have been popular in Minnesota for probably 50 years now if not more. As far as I can tell they hold up well, the poles are treated and they are set down in the ground below the frost line so they don't move around any more than a building with a conventional foundation would.

 

[BWS]

Foundation,as has been mentioned...reason for post however....


On any structure,the grade plays a huge roll in how that building not only survives,but its day to day behavior.One of the reasons theres 100+ y.o. barns around is those old timers really understood this.Concrete as a footer(at least how we describe it today) isn't all that old.I've worked on LOTS of old buildings where brick was laid directly on the "trench" floor.Way too involved for complete diagnosis/discussion.

The point to the above is one where both types of structures share this grade issue.There are some benny's in perimeter drain engineering when using a full-on footer.....It can be used when grading factors sort of cause trouble with pole barn setup.But,F**k up the grade bad enough....and it won't matter which type you build.

Back in the day,builders had way more sense about "natural" occurances.....and generally weren't in such a big hurry.Imagine a big azz low spot in your yard/field/whatever.....would you build a building there?Heck no,you'd pay attention(during rain storms) and put the dang thing where the grade is to your benifit.But as customer demands go up....land space deminishes...and contractors effin more chit up...well,you see how it can be a problem.

Good luck with your build.

 

[Kevin54]

Some may be cheaper, but by the time both are done, they can equal out at the same price. With the price of steel today, that drives the price of a Pole Barn up. If you are going to insulate, and finish off the inside, you pretty much have to stick build your walls anyways. What a Pole Building does save over a stick build is foundation cost. If you put in a foundation, block or solid, down to frost line on footers, you have a few thousand in that before you ever get out of the gate.

Stick build with OSB sheeting on the outside and exposed on the inside, you won't have sweating. With a Pole barn, uninsulated, weather can change to the point that it's raining inside. Moisture will condense on the metal.

There are a multitude of pro's and con's to each. If you are going to build it yourself, then it goes to the point of what you feel most comfortable doing. Myself, I wouldn't have any problem stick building a garage, room addition, or whatever. I have done it numerous times. But if I had to build a Pole Barn, I'd be nervous as cat in a room full of rocking chairs. Could I do it? Probably. But it would more than likely take me four times as long, because I have only been around a couple in my life when they were going up. My biggest fear would be getting poles in line and the building square. I just wouldn't be comfortable doing it by myself and not having someone around that has done it before.

 

[383 240z]

My shop is a pole barn, 6x6's at the corners and 4x6's every other posts on the run, with 2x4 stud walls between the posts covered with OSB inside. exterior is covered with 4x8 sheets of siding. The roof is built out of pre-made trusses, open ceiling for now. The trusses are 4' OC with 2x4 purlins soon to be covered with metal roofing as soon as the snow melts. The floor is 6" of steel and fiber re-enforced concrete. I've no issues with condensation inside. Keith

 

[jives]

I built a pole barn/shed 3 years ago as contractors were building my house. The garage
did not make the budget, but we needed something for outside storage. I build a 22 x 22
pole barn a ways away from the house and it cost about $3500. Except for the main
framing lumber, roof sheathing, and 4 x 4 posts, I scrounged much of the wood. E.g.,
sheathing for the sidewalls were scraps of Zip OSB I got from my builder's sites
(with their permission), the roofing was bargain roll roofing (have since bought shingles
from Craigslist but have not installed). The siding over the Zip is is rough-sawn 1 x 10
pine placed vertically and stained (no battens). Most was salvaged or advertised on CL.
Doors and windows free from CL.

After breaking two rental augers I paid a guy with a hydraulic auger on his skidsteer to
drill the post holes. After inspection (yup, needed a full-on permit), I sunk the poles
after coating with tar on top of large flat rocks and gravel at the bottom of the hole.
Our water table is high, so even in late summer I sunk the poles in water and clay mud.
Holes are about 4-5' deep, with rock/gravel at the bottom to bring the depth to 4'. Code
her in central NY is 42". Thus far I've had no sinking or heaving.

The shed is is really a 14 x 22 foot gable building with an 8' lean-to along on e side. The
main structure was built with rafters and thus has attic storage accessible by ladder
through a large opening in the ceiling. Along one eave side the wall is actually a triple
wall. The girts (used lumber) are placed about 2 inches apart and not 2 feet, it is sided
with scrap Advantec flooring, and then covered with the rough sawn pine. This wall
serves as a "bang wall" for the kids' games, specifically a soccer goal and a baseball
backstop.

There was never any plan to concrete the floor, though I have added gravel. It is a
storage area and not a workplace. No electricity, no water.

Jeff in Enfield, NY

 

[Sureshot]

^^^This. Every older barn Ive ever been in has been on a foundation - concrete and rock, not a pole barn. IME, pole barns dont last worth a **** if theyre unheated, esp in the colder/wetter climates. 20-30 years max unless theyre heated, which can stretch things out quite a bit due to the drying effect of it. The perma-form idea is an interesting way to get around having a foundation, but even in that instance I would still be concerned about heaving if its not heated for any length of time.

I hear these comments but have never seen a failure of one done with treated lumber. Have you seen examples first hand?

 

[Modifieddriver]

I built this pole barn in 1996 and used 2" steel black pipe with saddles for 4" X 6" beams to set the trusses. Pipes were wrapped and had spikes put in them before the concrete was poured. This was a 20' x 50' structure used to store hay. After the horses were sold, poured a concrete floor and enclosed it. Also put a 12' X 24' room on the side to house my BB gun collection. Lights are offset so that I can store my motorhome or Airstream with out hitting anything.

Not to hijack this thread, but is that galvalume metal siding inside the shop are? If it is, do ya' like it?

Also, neat cars.

 

[denis4x4]

Used the galvanized panels to lighten up the interior and they were quick to install and inexpensive. Downside is how noisy it is. Electrical is workbench height and surfaced mounted. Walls and ceiling are insulated. Hard to say how much this cost as it was done first to store hay and then converted with an addition. Door is a rollup. Use it more for car storage as I have a 36' X 48' shop.

 

[Mattlt]

Couple thoughts...

Pole buildings can be built with bookshelf girts instead of the traditional flat girts on the outside. This eliminates having to build a wall between the poles after construction. More labor intensive during the original build.

One advantage of a pole building vs stick build is concrete pouring. You can put up a pole building pretty much anytime. The only issue is getting the auger in the ground to install posts. Concrete then can be poured when weather permits. (I've never been much of a fan of pouring in the winter) With stick built, the concrete work needs to be done first. Then, for example, if you want to put infloor heat tube in the concrete, that's an up-front cost as well. With a pole building that can be delayed until the pour.

It's common in my area to use a laminated post instead of a solid one. Usually three 2x6 or 2x8 nailed and glued together. The portions underground (and a few feet above ground) are treated. Most outfits set the pole on a concrete cookie. Some wrap rebar around the bottom of the cookie and back up through holes in the pole to prevent uplift.

Several years ago, when steel was cheap, pole buildings really were a lot cheaper than stick built. Not so much now days.

I grew up in the hometown of Lester Buildings, so there are literally thousands of pole buildings still standing in this area. Many are starting to show age on their steel but structurally there are just fine. I have no affiliation with them, but I'd encourage you to check out their website to see how they construct their buildings. www.lesterbuildings.com . Morton, Cleary, Northland, and RAM are some others in this area.