Help moving breakers and making room for sub panel.

[Bsj04]

I only know a little about electrical but willing to learn. Some of my terms my not be correct but I'll try to explain the best I can.

I only have one space left in my breaker box. I need 2 spaces to install my 100 amp breaker for the garage sub panel. There are several circuits that could be "doubled tapped" or install a tandem breaker. The box is cutler-hammer, there is 1 tandem breaker in there so I assume I can use another to free up a space. Either way I'll need a new breaker. I don't feel like the smoke detectors and door bell need there own 15 amp circuit each, They could be put on the same breaker. I started reading how to install tandem breakers and double tap breakers and something came up about "multi feed" and I couldn't follow what I was reading. Something about shearing a neutral but using but using different sides of the main feeds. Well all the neutrals and grounds look to be connected in the box on each side then have a bar connecting both sides together anyways. Do I even need to worry about that?

My plan is to install a tandem or double tap breaker in the space labeled "chime" and add the "smoke" hot wire to that space as well. Then move all the breakers up one space to install my 100 amp down in the bottom left 2 spaces.

Next is the "hot spot" issues. My hvac system has 4 breakers? 3-50 amp and 1-30 amp. I'm pretty sure the 2 lower 50 amp on the left are for the electric back up heat. It's a heat pump system that is pretty efficient and I have never notice the emergency heat coming on. I don't think it will be an issue. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Next I want to use the knock out on the lower right corner to install the conduit going to the garage. The panel is on an exterior wall and I can run the conduit right out the back down into the ground.

The sub panel is 175' total wire length from panel to panel. I plan on using 3, #2 gauge copper thwn and 1, #6 thwn ground, burried in 2" conduit with 100 amp In the main panel. I know I could go cheaper and run the 2-2-2-4 al mobile feeder with a lower breaker I'm just scared about the aluminum wire, corrosion, connections and old stories. I want to do this once and plan on living here for the rest of my life. I'm 28,so hopefully I have some years ahead of me.

Please pick apart my plan and let me know where in messing up.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bsj04]

Was having trouble with pictures but here is the panel.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I only know a little about electrical but willing to learn. Some of my terms my not be correct but I'll try to explain the best I can.

I only have one space left in my breaker box. I need 2 spaces to install my 100 amp breaker for the garage sub panel. There are several circuits that could be "doubled tapped" or install a tandem breaker. The box is cutler-hammer, there is 1 tandem breaker in there so I assume I can use another to free up a space. Either way I'll need a new breaker. I don't feel like the smoke detectors and door bell need there own 15 amp circuit each, They could be put on the same breaker. I started reading how to install tandem breakers and double tap breakers and something came up about "multi feed" and I couldn't follow what I was reading. Something about shearing a neutral but using but using different sides of the main feeds. Well all the neutrals and grounds look to be connected in the box on each side then have a bar connecting both sides together anyways. Do I even need to worry about that?

Ignore the multi-wire circuit discussions, they don't pertain to what you are doing.

My plan is to install a tandem or double tap breaker in the space labeled "chime" and add the "smoke" hot wire to that space as well. Then move all the breakers up one space to install my 100 amp down in the bottom left 2 spaces.

Sounds like a good plan

Next is the "hot spot" issues. My hvac system has 4 breakers? 3-50 amp and 1-30 amp. I'm pretty sure the 2 lower 50 amp on the left are for the electric back up heat. It's a heat pump system that is pretty efficient and I have never notice the emergency heat coming on. I don't think it will be an issue. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Again, sounds like you are correct in your understanding. Its a non issue.

Next I want to use the knock out on the lower right corner to install the conduit going to the garage. The panel is on an exterior wall and I can run the conduit right out the back down into the ground.

Just make sure you can make the bends with the wire. It may be tight.

The sub panel is 175' total wire length from panel to panel. I plan on using 3, #2 gauge copper thwn and 1, #6 thwn ground, burried in 2" conduit with 100 amp In the main panel. I know I could go cheaper and run the 2-2-2-4 al mobile feeder with a lower breaker I'm just scared about the aluminum wire, corrosion, connections and old stories. I want to do this once and plan on living here for the rest of my life. I'm 28,so hopefully I have some years ahead of me.

Aluminum would be more difficult to work with, being heavier and naturally stiffer. After you price that much copper, you will begin to rethink the aluminum vs copper.

Old stories are correct. Aluminum is used all the time. That is what feeds your house now. Just use a anti-corrosive paste such as NoOx or similar and properly torque the connections. They may need to have the torque rechecked later but that is easy. Again, modern AL wire is a non issue. The problem was in the 12 and 10 gauge wire used in the '70's. It was not the same alloy used nowdays and most of all, the receptacles and switches were not compatible with AL. Things got hot, fires started, houses burned down. I had a house with AL wire built in the early '70's. It had wires burning in the walls from the receptacles. I replaced them with CO/ALR receptacles and paste on the connections, and proceeded to begin rewiring the house. But no, the larger AL wire of today is not the same alloy nor does it cause the problems. Your breaker and disconnect connections are designed to accept AL wire.

Charles

 

[ezzzzzzz]

Yep, the copper will set you back quite a bit more than the aluminum. That said, I've got two lengths of aluminum service cable sitting out back after trying to get it through an relatively short run of 2" conduit with two 90* bends without success. The individual copper runs pulled like butter in comparison. It's a pricey difference but you're only investing one time.. just do it.

 

[Bsj04]

I've priced both. The copper is 2x the aluminum. Copper will run about $4 a foot vs aluminum $2 a foot.

I called the co-op about just running another meter. $13 a foot and it's about 40' to the pole and then I'll have another electric bill with a $15 a month meter fee. It's not worth it to me for what I'll actually be running in there most of the time.

Options are:
run copper for $850 including conduit
Run aluninum for $475 including conduit
Or pay power company $500 + $15 a month for lift

The copper will cost a little more up front but I think worth it in the long run.

 

[Norcal]

I doubt that panel is listed to accept twin breakers, if that is the case then installing a subpanel & moving some circuits over to it would make sense IMHO to gain additional spaces in the main panel.

The doubled neutrals are not kosher BTW.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I doubt that panel is listed to accept twin breakers, if that is the case then installing a subpanel & moving some circuits over to it would make sense IMHO to gain additional spaces in the main panel.

The doubled neutrals are not kosher BTW.

Norcal is correct, and once again, I failed to size up the entire situation. That is a 40 space panel, I did not pay any attention to the pics. Until the 2011 code, panels were limited to 40 breakers max, so that panel would be UL listed for 40 circuits, no more. Adding tandems to increase the number of circuits will put it above 40 and as noted, violate the listing.

Take the two wires from the doorbell and the alarms and wire nut them with a pigtail and stick the pigtail in one breaker and be done with it.

Charles

 

[Bsj04]

Thanks for the replys. I will pigtail that breaker and move the of the up to make room for my sub panel breaker.

The double tapped neutrals came up during the home inspection when we bought the house and I'm aware of the issue just not sure how to fix since the wires have been trimmed to length and will be short if I start separating them.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Generally, I run wires as far as they will go in a box before I terminate them. If I had run those neutrals, they would be attached to the bottom most holes in the bar, then if things needed trimming or moving, it can be done.

Charles