Help on Breaker Panel

[bluegoose972]

I'm not an electrician, so bare with me.

So, hired an electrician to install a service to my new shop. Nothing is wired inside yet. He pulled directly off the meter at the service drop, so this will be considered a main panel. Came across with 4/0 aluminum for my 150 amp service. Everything is good to this point. He installed a disconnect at the meter, I assume is rated for 150 amp (need to put my eyes on it tonight).

The breaker box I have is rated for 200 amp. The intent was to have the service terminate into a 150 amp fuse before energizing the main panel. But he wired it directly to the main panel.

I wanted the ability to shut down the building at this box, but he says I can just shut it off at the meter. Thinking about it, the number of times I have ever shut down the entire service to my house would be ZERO. So is it a big deal to have the disconnect at the service drop? Is there any reason to have two disconnects?

Second thing is the ground/neutral. He showed up Saturday and ran a wire from the neutral bus to my shop structural steel and said "Good...Now your shop is grounded!". I stopped him and said "Don't I need two ground rods installed for the building?" He said "I guess", as if it was optional, and said he would install when I have him return to install the wiring in the shop. So, I started reading GJ. But I'm confused. Do the ground rods just ground the building? Or do you run a line up to the main box? If so, does it connect to the same bus as the neutral?

Sorry for my ignorance. Reading some of the posts are confusion because of the difference between subpanels and main panels.

 

[acer66]

I have my house wired the same way, main disconnect is at the meter base which turns the 'main' panel inside into a sub panel.
Nothing wrong with that and not uncommon around here.

If your shop is detached it needs 2 ground rods.

 

[mm08822]

Since you have a disconnect at the meter, your shop panel is a sub-panel.
The 4/0 feeder should be 4-wire....2 hots, 1 neutral, 1 grd.
The shop panel needs to have grds and neutral bars separate.
No bonding screw should be used in the shop sub-panel.
Bonding screw required at meter/disconnect.
2 ground rods need to be installed at the meter location/disconnect.

If the meter/disconnect is readily accessible, I believe that is sufficient as the disconnecting means. It would have been just as easy to buy a panel with a main cb.

The structural steel of the shop needs to be connected to the isolated grd bar in your sub-panel, not the neutral bar.

I think the shop still needs two grd rods. (If the disconnect were in a house panel and the shop was a separate bldg, for certain the detached bldg would. Not sure electrically how not having a house around the disconnect changes anything.

 

[TTMotorsports]

If my home panel has the ground and neutral bars connected do I need to have them separate at the shop panel? I have grounding rod and ufer at shop hooked to grounding bar now already

 

[mm08822]

If my home panel has the ground and neutral bars connected do I need to have them separate at the shop panel? I have grounding rod and ufer at shop hooked to grounding bar now already

Yes, bonding of neutral and grd only permitted at first disconnect location - in your case the house panel.

 

[bluegoose972]

The feed is only three wire. Two hots and a neutral. It's not coming off the main box, but coming directly off the meter. There is no ground wire. Adding ground rods at the point of entry into the detached garage would provide me with the ground, right?

 

[alfredeneuman]

No. You need the ground wire back to the panel.
The ground rods are not so much for providing a ground for the circuits as they are for lightning protection.

 

[bluegoose972]

There seems to be some confusion....and it very well could be me. Reading all this information, this is what I understand. The power comes off the service as a three wire system. From the meter, the power is routed to the fuse box on the other side of the house using a three wire system. (My service comes into the house on the left side and the panel is in the garage on the right side...I didn't build it) The copper ground wire isn't provided by the electrical company...it comes from the ground rods that are installed from the house.

So, if the electrician connected onto the same lugs (three lugs) that send power to the breaker box on the house, but now run that line (three wire) to the shop, then I would need to add ground rods to set up a grounding system for the detached garage and everything would be good.

Do I understand this correctly now?

 

[alfredeneuman]

No, you need the 3 Hot-Hot-Neutral AND the ground wire. Re-read post 7.

The image you posted doesn't show the wire required (GEC) from the neutral to the grounding system

 

[mm08822]

I'm not an electrician, so bare with me.

So, hired an electrician to install a service to my new shop. Nothing is wired inside yet. He pulled directly off the meter at the service drop, so this will be considered a main panel. Came across with 4/0 aluminum for my 150 amp service. Everything is good to this point. He installed a disconnect at the meter, I assume is rated for 150 amp (need to put my eyes on it tonight).

The breaker box I have is rated for 200 amp. The intent was to have the service terminate into a 150 amp fuse before energizing the main panel. But he wired it directly to the main panel.

I wanted the ability to shut down the building at this box, but he says I can just shut it off at the meter. Thinking about it, the number of times I have ever shut down the entire service to my house would be ZERO. So is it a big deal to have the disconnect at the service drop? Is there any reason to have two disconnects?

Second thing is the ground/neutral. He showed up Saturday and ran a wire from the neutral bus to my shop structural steel and said "Good...Now your shop is grounded!". I stopped him and said "Don't I need two ground rods installed for the building?" He said "I guess", as if it was optional, and said he would install when I have him return to install the wiring in the shop. So, I started reading GJ. But I'm confused. Do the ground rods just ground the building? Or do you run a line up to the main box? If so, does it connect to the same bus as the neutral?

Sorry for my ignorance. Reading some of the posts are confusion because of the difference between subpanels and main panels.

The feed is only three wire. Two hots and a neutral. It's not coming off the main box, but coming directly off the meter. There is no ground wire. Adding ground rods at the point of entry into the detached garage would provide me with the ground, right?

There seems to be some confusion....and it very well could be me. Reading all this information, this is what I understand. The power comes off the service as a three wire system. From the meter, the power is routed to the fuse box on the other side of the house using a three wire system. (My service comes into the house on the left side and the panel is in the garage on the right side...I didn't build it) The copper ground wire isn't provided by the electrical company...it comes from the ground rods that are installed from the house.

So, if the electrician connected onto the same lugs (three lugs) that send power to the breaker box on the house, but now run that line (three wire) to the shop, then I would need to add ground rods to set up a grounding system for the detached garage and everything would be good.

Do I understand this correctly now?

The more you write, the less I understand!! Please take some pics with covers off if you are comfortable to do so.

Seems like there is confusion as to main panels, sub panels, ground wires (equipment grounding conductors) and grounding electrode conductors and the purpose of ground rods.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wow this thread is a mess.

Youre mixing up the house and shop feeds and panels.

Lets start with one thing at a time.

You mentioned the electrician installed a disconnect at the meter.

This is for your shop feeder?

If so then the feeder shouldve been 4-wire.

What type of wire did he use?

Also, the panel in the shop would be a subpanel and needs an isolated neutral bar with no bonding screw installed, a ground bar and 2 grounding electrodes connected to the ground bar. Also, any metallic plumbing and building steel needs to be connected here.

 

[bluegoose972]

Yeah, sorry about that. Like I said, I'm not an electrician. But starting to figure out that he might not be either! LOL

Spoke with him and his intent does not match up with code. He ran the three wire to the subpanel in the shop. Used 4/0 aluminum wire for 150 amp service. So, at least that was right. He believes that setting up ground rods at the shop is the correct method. Sounds like I have a problem now.

Sounds like I need him to either pull the other wire out and repull it back through with a fourth wire or pull a whole new four wire setup. This was the whole reason I hired a highly recommended electrician.

Argh. As for the rest of it, I should be good. I have a separate added ground bar in the cabinet. Still need him to install the ground rods upon his return. System is turned off right now at the meter as we just installed the service so far. There will be no metal conduits. Romex is behind walls except for little bit for lights and that will be PVC.

This is what really threw me off in the first place and had me start asking questions. He added a lug from the structural steel of the shop to the Neutral bar in the cabinet and said the building was now grounded. Looks like I may need to go find a new electrician.

 

[mm08822]

Yeah, sorry about that. Like I said, I'm not an electrician. But starting to figure out that he might not be either! LOL

Spoke with him and his intent does not match up with code. He ran the three wire to the subpanel in the shop. Used 4/0 aluminum wire for 150 amp service. So, at least that was right. He believes that setting up ground rods at the shop is the correct method. Sounds like I have a problem now.

Sounds like I need him to either pull the other wire out and repull it back through with a fourth wire or pull a whole new four wire setup. This was the whole reason I hired a highly recommended electrician.

Argh. As for the rest of it, I should be good. I have a separate added ground bar in the cabinet. Still need him to install the ground rods upon his return. System is turned off right now at the meter as we just installed the service so far. There will be no metal conduits. Romex is behind walls except for little bit for lights and that will be PVC.

This is what really threw me off in the first place and had me start asking questions. He added a lug from the structural steel of the shop to the Neutral bar in the cabinet and said the building was now grounded. Looks like I may need to go find a new electrician.

The 4/0 is where most would have messed up. You're good @150A.

Is the 4/0 in conduit or direct burial? Conduit makes it an easy fix.

Yes, you need 2 rods at the shop. The meter location with disconnect already has 2 rods from prior install?

The building steel bonding conductor needs to connect to the ground bar. So does the grounding electrode conductor from the rods.
Make sure the green bonding screw/strap is not used in the panel.

Pictures would be best before you release him.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah, sorry about that. Like I said, I'm not an electrician. But starting to figure out that he might not be either! LOL

Spoke with him and his intent does not match up with code. He ran the three wire to the subpanel in the shop. Used 4/0 aluminum wire for 150 amp service. So, at least that was right. He believes that setting up ground rods at the shop is the correct method. Sounds like I have a problem now.

Sounds like I need him to either pull the other wire out and repull it back through with a fourth wire or pull a whole new four wire setup. This was the whole reason I hired a highly recommended electrician.

Argh. As for the rest of it, I should be good. I have a separate added ground bar in the cabinet. Still need him to install the ground rods upon his return. System is turned off right now at the meter as we just installed the service so far. There will be no metal conduits. Romex is behind walls except for little bit for lights and that will be PVC.

This is what really threw me off in the first place and had me start asking questions. He added a lug from the structural steel of the shop to the Neutral bar in the cabinet and said the building was now grounded. Looks like I may need to go find a new electrician.

the 3-wire feeder to the subpanel is incorrect because there is a disconnect at the meter.

It needs to be pulled out and replaced with a 4-wire feeder.

Post #3 on the electrical FAQ thread has diagrams to help you understand the proper way to wire this

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356460

 

[alfredeneuman]

Pictures would be best before you release him.

Or pay him

 

[Crazyjake8493]

Looks like I may need to go find a new electrician.

Looks like you may need to get an actual electrician.

 

[mm08822]

Or pay him

Yeah, I only wrote half of my thought......take pics, then post here, and peeps here can get out their tweezers and magnifying glass and sort through the pile of pepper.

After that punchlist is completed, pay him.


OP, you know your in trouble when you know more than the pro.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Or just show him this thread

 

[Scrivyscriv]

I may have missed it but my understanding was this type of situation only required one grounding electrode at the outbuilding, with the standard GEC isolated from the neutral bus. This is based on reading the 2014 code... we just went to 2018 NEC in my county, did it change this cycle?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I may have missed it but my understanding was this type of situation only required one grounding electrode at the outbuilding, with the standard GEC isolated from the neutral bus. This is based on reading the 2014 code... we just went to 2018 NEC in my county, did it change this cycle?

2 grounding electrodes have been required for many code cycles, probably since the late 90s, UNLESS one can prove 25ohms or less resistance to earth with one rod. the equipment to do so is pricey so driving a second rod is cheaper.

the neutral bus needs to be isolated from ALL grounds on a subpanel, not just the GEC from the rods.

 

[alfredeneuman]

This is based on reading the 2014 code... we just went to 2018 NEC in my county, did it change this cycle?

There is no such thing as a 2018 NEC

 

[Scrivyscriv]

There is no such thing as a 2018 NEC

My fault, I mistakenly put the wrong years. My AHJ is using 2014 NEC, just cycled to it from the 2008 NEC in 2018.