Help Upgrade my File Game

[oldschoolcraft]

I read through a bunch of old threads and came away confused and dejected. Lots of people saying all current files are not good. Pferd moved to China/India. Someone posted an old Nicholson catalog that shows different types of files and I am more confused than ever about which sizes and styles I want.

For my general purpose handyman work, I've gotten away with 2 files for the last decade. A 4" half round file, and a micro locksmithing Grobet file that's also half round but is pointy on the end. I don't do a ton of filing and the random stuff I needed to do, seems to have worked with these, albeit slowly at times.

The half round seems about perfect for general purpose use. If the thing is round, I just use the round side... twice. Flip it around and hit the other side with the round side. If the thing is flat, I use the flat side. Though I suppose for a home tool kit, having one completely round and one completely flat might make more sense, given having space to store them. My mobile kit is where the half round definitely shines.

Then again, I probably should have 2 to 3 different courseness of files. And maybe even one dedicated to stainless steel, and the others dedicated to softer metals and plastics. I filed down kydex holsters more than once for custom mods. In which case, having separate flat and round files adds up, because maybe I need 5 or 6 of each.

I'm a GJ heretic and I don't want all of the tools. Lack of storage space, and in the case of these files, I might have to dig up new old stock, and it will be expensive and difficult to find too many. So I ask you guys, what's the basic different types of files that are really necessary?

I actually love my grobet microfile that's half round and pointy on the end. Seems to be the best possible single file to have. Even better than my 4" half-round. I think maybe a 6" to 8" half round with pointy end would be the best GP file, since if it's flat, I can just use the bottom 4" to 6" of the file and avoid using the tip end. And if it's something I need pointy tip, I have it. Takes the place of a flat, a round, and a triangular file. I'm thinking if this exists in full size file shapes, and if I can get 5 to 6 different ones in this exact shape, different courseness, that might be exactly what I need.

 

[neophyte]

I don’t know how good the files from India are, but one of the largest filemakers in the world, is now located in India, and purchased the equipment from MOB Talabot, France’s major filemaker (basically the French equivalent of Nicholson).
I believe Grainger may sell these Indian made files under their Westward brand, but store brands like Westward dometimes change COO.

Tome Feteira, a Portuguese file manufacturer, has a decent reputation, and I believe supplies files to Bahco nowadays.
There are still Japanese made files, but the files are expensive.
Vallorbe in Switzerland still makes quality files, but not always in larger sizes.

Your best bet is to find a decent set of files available in multiple coarseness grades, and purchase a set in a smooth cut, and a coarser cut cut, in the same length.

For specialty file profiles, you usually have to find those individually.

 

[RoninB4]

-The subject of files was brought up on a machinist board and the general consensus was that all the respected file makers in the US had been sold off and the offshore products were just ****. Steel had been changed, hardening process was changed, and the files were often no longer flat due to poor heat-treating methods and poorer QC.

Good files are still available but far more expensive than they used to be. Use the price as a purchase guide, COO can also indicate quality or the lack of it. Files don't last forever, they are considered perishables when they get dull. Extend the life of a file by applying chalk before using it and keep the teeth clean. A soft brass BBQ brush should help remove particles in between the teeth. Light coating of oil and not allowing files to rub on each other helps as well.

File types and grades depend upon the material being worked and material removal rates, matching the file to the work is a personal choice. I usually prefer to use a mill cut or 2nd cut for most of what I do. ******* files are a bit rough and tend to skip/skate over the work. Wood gets a rasp, Plastics, composites, and phenolic materials are all abrasive so I try not to use a file on them. A rat-tail, a 2nd cut flat, and a half round should handle most chores. Size is another matter entirely.

 

[ecotec]

I don’t see made in USA files in any stores anymore… even NOS.

I buy used. There is tonnage of it out there.

I have spent far more on file handles than I have on files.

I have given away almost everything not made in USA, europe, israel, or homemade.

 

[AEAdam]

6” saw file
8” mill smooth
10” mill *******
Rat tail file

Chain saw file can be helpful
Needle file set

I really relied on files for a while. Grobet were good. USA Nicholson were good but no more.

My advice, try to get used US Nicholson files then send them to Boggs tool for reconditioning. Or you might get lucky.

Get handles for all and buy and learn to use a file card. A quick brushing doesn’t always cut it. Some metals really clog files (like aluminum). I scrape it out with an awl or needle or anything sharp. I think it’s call de-pinning. Some old grumpy machinists say you need separate files for ferrous metals and aluminum. This is why. You do not need separate files but you do need to know how to clean them properly.

All said - I have a noga deburring tool in my machine shop. Been using that for pvc plumbing pipe. It’s pretty helpful for a lot of tasks I would normally use files for.

 

[matthew]

I have really liked the Bahco files I bought from Lee Valley. I’ve read somewhere that Oberg was a company Bahco bought, and it now refers to the pattern.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/sho...nd-rasps/files/69904-bahco-mill-*******-files

 

[dnschmidt]

Pferd still gets my vote if buying new. Where it's made is less of a factor than how it's made and the Germans are pretty strict with quality control. If the steel is good and the machines that make them are good then where both are physically located on the planet really doesn't matter much. In cases like this where there aren't any good answers I buy stuff from McMaster-Carr. Usually they provide the best available products in any category.

 

[Loga_3]

Whatever you do, stay far far away from Pferd. Complete junk! But i do recommend Bahco files (Old Öbergs).

 

[Chrome Vanadium Cody]

I think filing something to just the right shape is one of the simple pleasures in life similar to hitting something with a carefully chosen hammer. Just feels good.

Like you’re saying half round is one of my most used patterns- very versatile. Some situations you’ll need others. Tough for me to say as everyone’s work is different. But one I like that seems like it could be useful to you is a vixen file. It’s a file for soft materials that has huge ellipse shaped teeth. This allows it to make a pretty aggressive cut while being uncloggable. I use mine on aluminum, wood, plastic etc. Like another poster said you can skip this by cleaning your regular file with a pick but this one really saves a ton of time especially in a mobile setup where you don’t have the option to set it aside to clean later and use a backup to complete a task.

As far as buying files I agree USA Nicholson is the standard. Yard sales are the best- there’s a million unused ones out there for a dollar a pop but it does take some legwork. If you just want to stock up right away cripedistributing.com has some nos USA Nicholson available cheap. Best method is ordering from their website and using code CRIPE23 for 10% off. Couple other sellers with nos USA Nicholson at relatively reasonable prices are https://www.ebay.com/sch/t-rex4u/m.html and https://www.ebay.com/sch/dragve/m.html

 

[Dave455]

The cheapest files that actually work are Bahco.

These were formerly Oberg, and were made in Sweden, but under SNA ownership are now Branded Bahco, and made in Portugal. They’re not as good as they were.

The best I’ve found, and my “go to” are Vallorbe.

They offer everything from full size files -



To smaller “precision“ files -


To “Habilis” mid size files -


Right down to needle files, rifflers and escapement files.

Quality is first class, as is the selection available. If there’s a downside it’s that their products are geared to the jewellery trade, so sometimes they are less suited to general engineering.

I have, and use, all six of the styles / sizes listed. For most tasks I would take a British made Stubs in preference.

 

[oldschoolcraft]

Is there a name for a half round file that tapers to a pointy end?

 

[Dave455]

Is there a name for a half round file that tapers to a pointy end?

No, they are just different styles of the same tool.

Almost all half round files will taper in width and thickness, but to how much of a point is variable.

Generally, the larger files taper to less of a point, the smaller ones (certainly the Swiss ones) more so.

 

[rockettauto]

You can still find a lot of good quality used Oberg brand files for cheap.

 

[Jim greengo]

I don't know of many brand names,but I try to keep a couple of decent "double cut" flat files and a couple "single cuts" on hand,a rat tail file and a chainsaw file are handy also.

 

[oldschoolcraft]

No, they are just different styles of the same tool.

Almost all half round files will taper in width and thickness, but to how much of a point is variable.

Generally, the larger files taper to less of a point, the smaller ones (certainly the Swiss ones) more so.

Yes my favorite file is a tiny Swiss half round with pointy end!

Would it be possible to take a hand round file that tapers a bit, and grind it down so it tapers down more pointy? Or would the heat from the grinding result in ruining tempering of the file steel, making it a less effective file?

Im thinking of finding vintage files, grinding them down pointy, and then sending them off to that shop who restores the file surface.

I think a set of small, medium, and large lengths (2”, 4”, 8” maybe) with 3 to 4 different courseness for each size, all in a half round with triangular pointy end, would be he ultimate set for me as a general purpose handyman.

 

[rockettauto]

Yes my favorite file is a tiny Swiss half round with pointy end!

Would it be possible to take a hand round file that tapers a bit, and grind it down so it tapers down more pointy? Or would the heat from the grinding result in ruining tempering of the file steel, making it a less effective file?

Im thinking of finding vintage files, grinding them down pointy, and then sending them off to that shop who restores the file surface.

I think a set of small, medium, and large lengths (2”, 4”, 8” maybe) with 3 to 4 different courseness for each size, all in a half round with triangular pointy end, would be he ultimate set for me as a general purpose handyman.

For what you seem to prefer I'd maybe just grab these and go from there.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0019C9UCC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[rockettauto]

For what you seem to prefer I'd maybe just grab these and go from there.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0019C9UCC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Maybe not....but something similar set wise. Seems these aren't actually German manufacture and may be pretty poor after reading reviews.

 

[AEAdam]

He cheapest files that actually work are Bahco.

These were formerly Oberg, and were made in Sweden, but under SNA ownership are now Branded Bahco, and made in Portugal. They’re not as good as they were.

The best I’ve found, and my “go to” are Vallorbe.

They offer everything from full size files -



To smaller “precision“ files -


To “Habilis” mid size files -


Right down to needle files, rifflers and escapement files.

Quality is first class, as is the selection available. If there’s a downside it’s that their products are geared to the jewellery trade, so sometimes they are less suited to general engineering.

I have, and use, all six of the styles / sizes listed. For most tasks I would take a British made Stubs in preference.

Dave,

I was in a hanger in Gosport with some US mechanics watching UK mechanics make some structural doublers “ship side” with just some hack saws and files. The UK techs marked and carefully filed to the line, filing a bit, checking, and correcting.

The US guys would use a dotco air grinder or these little air powered belt sanders to shape aircraft parts in a minute. They thought the UK guys were taking too long. But they couldn’t deny the skill of those UK mechanics and how, with the simplest, most old fashioned tools, they could achieve a high quality part in surprisingly little time.

You can do good work with a file.

 

[Dave455]

Yes my favorite file is a tiny Swiss half round with pointy end!

Would it be possible to take a hand round file that tapers a bit, and grind it down so it tapers down more pointy? Or would the heat from the grinding result in ruining tempering of the file steel, making it a less effective file?

Im thinking of finding vintage files, grinding them down pointy, and then sending them off to that shop who restores the file surface.

I think a set of small, medium, and large lengths (2”, 4”, 8” maybe) with 3 to 4 different courseness for each size, all in a half round with triangular pointy end, would be he ultimate set for me as a general purpose handyman.

It would, but I’d just buy the tool I wanted.

It sounds to me like the Vallorbe “Precision” files are what you need to start. Typically, I don’t have a half round to hand, but they are fairly pointy.

Available down to 4 inch, then you will need a different style.

 

[merkyworks]

@Chrome Vanadium Cody keep Cripe’s on the DL, thats my USA Nicholson stock pile LOL

 

[oldschoolcraft]

Is there different types of handles? I want polymer, not wood. Do I need to match the handle to the file? Or are they all going to fit all handles?

 

[Dave455]

Dave,

I was in a hanger in Gosport with some US mechanics watching UK mechanics make some structural doublers “ship side” with just some hack saws and files. The UK techs marked and carefully filed to the line, filing a bit, checking, and correcting.

The US guys would use a dotco air grinder or these little air powered belt sanders to shape aircraft parts in a minute. They thought the UK guys were taking too long. But they couldn’t deny the skill of those UK mechanics and how, with the simplest, most old fashioned tools, they could achieve a high quality part in surprisingly little time.

You can do good work with a file.

Sounds like we have trodden some of the same turf!

I must admit, I’m originally from the “file it” school, but I use die grinders too, or an angle grinder, or a milling machine, if the job warrants it.

I’d be lost without my Desoutter die grinder - I‘m so used to it that it’s like using a fountain pen you’ve had for years. I even picked up a spare, just in case!

I once watched a couple of contractors spend about a month cutting a hole in an aircraft and fitting a cargo door. The design work was already done, and a kit of parts came from British Aerospace, all pre machined and labelled. Everything thereafter was done by the two guys with hand tools.

Lovely job, but then they had to repeat it 6 times!

 

[Chrome Vanadium Cody]

@Chrome Vanadium Cody keep Cripe’s on the DL, thats my USA Nicholson stock pile LOL

Oops! I mean: “Cripes is unacceptable to shop from because they don’t do what Amazon does and build shipping into the cost of their items and then list everything as Free Shipping.” That oughta keep everybody at bay!

 

[Dave455]

Is there different types of handles? I want polymer, not wood. Do I need to match the handle to the file? Or are they all going to fit all handles?

Yes.

The size changes with the length of the file, and even the style. The suppliers usually tell you what they fit. Sometimes two handles are similar sized, but are made to fit different tangs.

Vallorbe will generally supply a hard plastic handle, but some of their files come with handles pre fitted as an option.

PB Swiss make about the best file handles, from CAB.


I keep boxes of these “Python” file handles ”in stock”. I generally varnish them in different colours for different cuts.

 

[RoninB4]

Would it be possible to take a hand round file that tapers a bit, and grind it down so it tapers down more pointy? Or would the heat from the grinding result in ruining tempering of the file steel, making it a less effective file?

-Yes this can be done, hardened tool steel is ground everyday in precision machine shops. The only real problem with this, as you've noted, is heat changing the hardness of the file. When grinding, care must be taken not to elevate temperatures at the point of contact with the grinding wheel. If the contact starts turning yellow, purple, or blue (in that order) the hardness/temper is being changed. The simple thing to do is:

1) Have a clean grinding wheel that's not clogged with metal from previous sessions. Dressing the wheel helps avoid this.
2) Have a small bucket or coffee can of water at hand to periodically plunge the file into to cool it down. If it's hot to the touch it needs to be cooled down.

For newer files there are reports that some are made from cheaper quality steel, no longer using the traditional W Group steels that are more expensive. These crappy files are merely case hardened. With these crappy imports the hardness is all on the surface, grinding more than .020 off any part of the steel goes into softer base metal that can only be hardened by the same process of case hardening. I have doubts about sending these type files off for renewal unless the service includes case hardening. Better to use old files made with the W Group steels. A good file maker will state what they are made of to distinguish their better made product from the rest of the **** that's out there now.

 

[neophyte]

Yes my favorite file is a tiny Swiss half round with pointy end!

Would it be possible to take a hand round file that tapers a bit, and grind it down so it tapers down more pointy? Or would the heat from the grinding result in ruining tempering of the file steel, making it a less effective file?

Im thinking of finding vintage files, grinding them down pointy, and then sending them off to that shop who restores the file surface.

I think a set of small, medium, and large lengths (2”, 4”, 8” maybe) with 3 to 4 different courseness for each size, all in a half round with triangular pointy end, would be he ultimate set for me as a general purpose handyman.

You can purchase very pointy files if necessary.
Pointy files are made for jewelry work, and watchmaking, and are still readily available from specialty suppliers.

 

[neophyte]

-Yes this can be done, hardened tool steel is ground everyday in precision machine shops. The only real problem with this, as you've noted, is heat changing the hardness of the file. When grinding, care must be taken not to elevate temperatures at the point of contact with the grinding wheel. If the contact starts turning yellow, purple, or blue (in that order) the hardness/temper is being changed. The simple thing to do is:

1) Have a clean grinding wheel that's not clogged with metal from previous sessions. Dressing the wheel helps avoid this.
2) Have a small bucket or coffee can of water at hand to periodically plunge the file into to cool it down. If it's hot to the touch it needs to be cooled down.

For newer files there are reports that some are made from cheaper quality steel, no longer using the traditional W Group steels that are more expensive. These crappy files are merely case hardened. With these crappy imports the hardness is all on the surface, grinding more than .020 off any part of the steel goes into softer base metal that can only be hardened by the same process of case hardening. I have doubts about sending these type files off for renewal unless the service includes case hardening. Better to use old files made with the W Group steels. A good file maker will state what they are made of to distinguish their better made product from the rest of the **** that's out there now.

There have always been multiple steel types used for making files.
Rasps from even high end file manufacturers have always been made from a lower carbon steel than that used for files, with the rasps case hardened after the teeth were chiseled in.
Since rasps were routinely used for shaping both wood and harder materials like stone, the case hardening of a lower carbon steel may have been used to prevent tooth breakage rather than as a way to make the rasps cheaper.
Nicholson in the US and Talabot in France both specifically mentioned the lower carbon content in thei catalog descriptions.
Some file brands like Black Diamond actually used to use a carbon steel with a higher than normal carbon content, but supposedly they stopped because their steel supplier refused to supply the higher carbon steel alloy.
As for the softer files that Nicholson was supplying (that were basically worthless), the issue was likely caused by decarborization in the production process rather than a lower carbon steel being used.

 

[RoninB4]

There have always been multiple steel types used for making files.
Rasps from even high end file manufacturers have always been made from a lower carbon steel than that used for files, with the rasps case hardened after the teeth were chiseled in.

-My assertions were concerning files used for metal working, I made no comments on rasps used for wood. I'm quite aware of how files are/were made and thank Leonardo for his efforts every time I use one. Claims from the high end Italian wood rasp makers are....noted.

As for the softer files that Nicholson was supplying (that were basically worthless), the issue was likely caused by decarborization in the production process rather than a lower carbon steel being used.

-Decarburization may/may not have been a culprit but the primary issue brought up on a machinist board was about warping. Further exploration revealed the case hardening of lower carbon content (cheaper) steels used. I don't doubt that various steels have been used for files for different materials. But for files used in metal working I can't ever recall any credible maker from 40 years ago using anything but high carbon steel, preferably from the W Group. There's a reason for this.

Company websites now may state the use of reduced carbon steels but that may just be a marketing buzz-word for people that don't know the difference. Same hype as "billet", "aircraft aluminum", and "surgical steel" phrases thrown about by marketing advertisements for people that don't know any better.

File blanks, in the soft state with no teeth, used to be sold for toolmakers to profile for machine scraping and then fully hardened afterwards. That doesn't happen with low carbon content steel that's case hardened. Files for soft materials (wood, horse hooves, etc.) can be made from lower carbon steels like 1095 and merely case hardened. The cheaper quality files may very well have been sold but were certainly not preferred by anyone working in a machine shop.

My whole point about case hardening was to answer a question by the OP about whether a file could be tapered to more of a point than the square ends most of them have.

 

[seber]

Generally speaking I stay away from anything made in Germany that requires high hardness. They don't seem to think hard means the same thing as the rest of the world. I go through files pretty often and at this point I have narrowed my choice of brands to one. Nicholson. I am especially fond of the Majicut. It cuts fast and leaves a smooth surface.

 

[woody 73]

Not sure if the op wants to hear this but every garage sale I walk into, most of them have a few used files for sale. You would be amazed at how fast your file collection will grow. The only file I have yet to find is one to sharpen auger bits, must be a lost art or something?

 

[Steve_P]

I don't own any German files, but all of my German made Wiha screwdrivers, probably a hundred, are certainly not lacking for hardness- they still look like new after years of home use. Same with Knipex and NWS pliers; they are not lacking for hardness.
For handles in the US, I have dozens of the Nicholson ergonomic black and gray ones; they are really nice and a pleasure to hold.
Most of my files are USA Nicholson that I bought right when they were moving production. My needle files are all Swiss made and are excellent also. I do have a few Bahco files made in Portugal, and they seem as good as my USA Nicholson.

 

[bwringer]

Pferd still gets my vote if buying new. Where it's made is less of a factor than how it's made and the Germans are pretty strict with quality control. If the steel is good and the machines that make them are good then where both are physically located on the planet really doesn't matter much. In cases like this where there aren't any good answers I buy stuff from McMaster-Carr. Usually they provide the best available products in any category.

Whatever you do, stay far far away from Pferd. Complete junk! But i do recommend Bahco files (Old Öbergs).

Well, uh, which is it?




Another point to bear in mind is that files are consumables, like many other tools. I inherited quite an assortment of quality files from my grandfather (who worked for a vehicle manufacturer, so I can guess the origin of the files) and my father, but after 50-ish years of use and lying around in toolboxes, they had become little more than oddly textured bar stock.

I was a grown man and then some before I bought a decent new file of my very own and was profoundly stunned that it actually worked. It wasn't just rubbing one piece of smooth metal against another and hoping shavings would result. The best I had ever achieved with the completely worn-out heirloom files was a sort of burnishing.

Sure, you can find files in flea markets and such, but very often they have the same problem.

 

[Wamsutta]

I prefer Simonds files that cut on the forward stroke.

 

[neophyte]

-My assertions were concerning files used for metal working, I made no comments on rasps used for wood. I'm quite aware of how files are/were made and thank Leonardo for his efforts every time I use one. Claims from the high end Italian wood rasp makers are....noted.


-Decarburization may/may not have been a culprit but the primary issue brought up on a machinist board was about warping. Further exploration revealed the case hardening of lower carbon content (cheaper) steels used. I don't doubt that various steels have been used for files for different materials. But for files used in metal working I can't ever recall any credible maker from 40 years ago using anything but high carbon steel, preferably from the W Group. There's a reason for this.

Company websites now may state the use of reduced carbon steels but that may just be a marketing buzz-word for people that don't know the difference. Same hype as "billet", "aircraft aluminum", and "surgical steel" phrases thrown about by marketing advertisements for people that don't know any better.

File blanks, in the soft state with no teeth, used to be sold for toolmakers to profile for machine scraping and then fully hardened afterwards. That doesn't happen with low carbon content steel that's case hardened. Files for soft materials (wood, horse hooves, etc.) can be made from lower carbon steels like 1095 and merely case hardened. The cheaper quality files may very well have been sold but were certainly not preferred by anyone working in a machine shop.

My whole point about case hardening was to answer a question by the OP about whether a file could be tapered to more of a point than the square ends most of them have.

If you want a file that has teeth going all the way to the tip, you beed yo purchase “Swiss Pattern” files.
Swiss Pattern does not necessarily mean “Made in Switzerland” but the style tends to be cut all the way to the tip, and the tips on the paterns that taper tend to taper down very close to a point.
American file routinely taper, ( with the exception of “Blunt” pattern files that are perpendicular to the tip) but the American Pattern files don’t taper all the way down to a point, and nay not have teeth going all the way to the tip.

 

[Samuel D]

Another point to bear in mind is that files are consumables, like many other tools. I inherited quite an assortment of quality files from my grandfather (who worked for a vehicle manufacturer, so I can guess the origin of the files) and my father, but after 50-ish years of use and lying around in toolboxes, they had become little more than oddly textured bar stock.

Indeed. Speaking of which, how do you keep files good? Mine rust more readily than other things in my boxes.

I was a grown man and then some before I bought a decent new file of my very own and was profoundly stunned that it actually worked.

That was my experience of buying some Portuguese-made Bahco files. They were astonishingly effective compared to the assorted junk I had been using before.

I found it was a pleasure to use a good file to shape metal.

So, OP, Bahco files are my recommendation if they’re easily available where you live.

Sure, you can find files in flea markets and such, but very often they have the same problem.

Agreed. That’s a game for people who know exactly what they’re doing or have no idea and think every old tool is a bargain because it’s cheap.

Goes for other tools in a flea market too, in my experience. Hardly anything there was properly used or stored.