Help with a bad breaker

[Poolshark314]

There were a few brief outages today and when I came home, one of my panels was tripped, and it smelled real bad in the basement. Pulled the panel off and noticed this breaker:

Definitely going to replace it, but trying to figure out what caused it. It looks like 1 of the neutrals comes from the tub and the other connects it to the neutral bus. I have not made any modifications to this panel since moving in several years ago.

 

[Norcal]

I am trying to figure out what you think is wrong, that potting compound is normal on Siemens GFCI's, one of the neutrals connects to the neutral bar & the other is the load neutral.

 

[sparky 1971]

It's a GFCI breaker. Reset it and push the test button. If it trips by pushing the button, reset it again, put the cover on the panel and move on.

 

[Poolshark314]

Ok. Thank you for the clarification. When I turned the panel back on, I heard a buzz and saw a spark behind the cover. I assumed that GFCI breaker had melted and that was the brown part was damage to the breaker. I haven't noticed anything else unordinary in the panel yet, but would a brief outage cause the main panel to trip? And also the smell makes me think something is damaged and not working properly. I took a few more pictures and nothing stands out besides neutrals being combined with grounds on a single lug

 

[Poolshark314]

I looked at the back of the cover for some clues and noticed there was some evidence of smoke on the 6th slot down, which is the breaker in question

 

[rooster59]

Spark, buzzing? Smell came from something. I would call an electrician

 

[Poolshark314]

Electrician came in and noticed the smell. He thinks the breaker I disconnected is damaged and that is what the brown substance is. He recommends that I just replace my panels lol. I didn't think Siemens were THAT bad

 

[mm08822]

Replace the panels?!!!

Did he pull the cbs out and look at buss stab / cb interface locations?

Which cb seems to carry the stink? Be suspicious of cb's for high cycling loads: AC, well pump, etc.

Test the gfci with a load on it. Jump neutral and grd wire together. GFCI should trip.

 

[mike93lx]

Electrician came in and noticed the smell. He thinks the breaker I disconnected is damaged and that is what the brown substance is. He recommends that I just replace my panels lol. I didn't think Siemens were THAT bad

Good to weed out the bad ones before you give them too much money.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Electrician came in and noticed the smell. He thinks the breaker I disconnected is damaged and that is what the brown substance is. He recommends that I just replace my panels lol. I didn't think Siemens were THAT bad

time to find another electrician

 

[LopezBart]

I've seen breakers fail & smoke from too high a sustained load (why the 80% continuous load limit exists) in an overloaded server room. One useful tool is an IR temp sensor to look for overheated connections and/or breakers.

 

[mike93lx]

I've seen breakers fail & smoke from too high a sustained load (why the 80% continuous load limit exists) in an overloaded server room. One useful tool is an IR temp sensor to look for overheated connections and/or breakers.

A breaker should be able to handle at least it's rated capacity continuously

 

[mm08822]

I've seen breakers fail & smoke from too high a sustained load (why the 80% continuous load limit exists) in an overloaded server room. One useful tool is an IR temp sensor to look for overheated connections and/or breakers.

CB time curves show 100% of rating for 3 hours or more.

My understanding of the 80% rule for cb rating was to have the heat within an enclosure generated by it and its neighbors compensated for.

 

[mm08822]

time to find another electrician

Scammer!

 

[Poolshark314]

The weird thing is the CB is for a jacuzzi tub that we never use. I noticed today the A/C unit is working, but the Nest thermostat isn't charging anymore, so that might be something to check out

 

[LopezBart]

A breaker should be able to handle at least it's rated capacity continuously

One would think so, but I believe the fire department said the problems they saw w/ overloaded breakers was due to the connections relaxing over time and developing more resistance. I don't know what really happened, but there was definitely smoke, fire and a visit from the guys w/ the big red trucks, and part of the on-going maintenance became periodically scanning for over-temp breakers.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

One would think so, but I believe the fire department said the problems they saw w/ overloaded breakers was due to the connections relaxing over time and developing more resistance. I don't know what really happened, but there was definitely smoke, fire and a visit from the guys w/ the big red trucks, and part of the on-going maintenance became periodically scanning for over-temp breakers.

No such thing if the terminations are properly torqued to spec

 

[mm08822]

One would think so, but I believe the fire department said the problems they saw w/ overloaded breakers was due to the connections relaxing over time and developing more resistance. I don't know what really happened, but there was definitely smoke, fire and a visit from the guys w/ the big red trucks, and part of the on-going maintenance became periodically scanning for over-temp breakers.

Overloaded cb's should trip based on their time curve.

High inrush loads such as ac compressors can provide the repetitive current spikes and therefor short heat generating bursts that can undo the temper in material grabbing the buss stab. This is a different condition than a continuously overloaded cb.

 

[mm08822]

No such thing if the terminations are properly torqued to spex

I think Bart meant the cb connection with the buss stab not the conductor side of cb.

 

[SlappyWhite]

Is it possible that during the outages there was a power surge and maybe it damaged the GFCI breaker circuitry, letting the magic smoke out?

From the pics it looks like this was the only GFCI breaker in this panel?
Anything else in the house not working right?
Could a power surge have also damaged the thermostat?

I would likely start by replacing the breaker (or not if you don't use the tub)... and I would not use the upsell electrician that wants to replace the panel.

 

[Beerhippie]

First thing to do is get a reliable electrician--not one who wants to sell you a new house due to a bad breaker.

Second, power outages can produce nasty power spikes on re-start. If that's what caused the problem--and why you need a good electrician's opinion--it's the power company's responsibility to fix it.

I've had our power company fix (pay for) a few tens of thousands of dollars in damaged equipment at the brewery over the years. They finally got the message and installed a giant surge suppressor for our entire branch line.

I installed "motor savers" on all our 3-phase equipment--just before the PC installed the big suppressor.

 

[no704]

What’s that curly wire? Looks like an induction heater.

 

[mike93lx]

What’s that curly wire? Looks like an induction heater.

Neutral pigtail for a ghci breaker

 

[Poolshark314]

Overloaded cb's should trip based on their time curve.

High inrush loads such as ac compressors can provide the repetitive current spikes and therefor short heat generating bursts that can undo the temper in material grabbing the buss stab. This is a different condition than a continuously overloaded cb.

I finally had a chance to take the breakers out and take a closer look and I think you got it right. First one I noticed with damage was the AC. The dryer breaker on the opposite side of the same stab had similar damage. I found a third breaker with damage that may or may not have been related but replaced that one as well. Also took this opportunity to separate the neutrals and grounds using the same terminal screw. Thank you all for the suggestions and help!

 

[PCustoms]

I finally had a chance to take the breakers out and take a closer look and I think you got it right. First one I noticed with damage was the AC. The dryer breaker on the opposite side of the same stab had similar damage. I found a third breaker with damage that may or may not have been related but replaced that one as well. Also took this opportunity to separate the neutrals and grounds using the same terminal screw. Thank you all for the suggestions and help!

What did the buss look like when you pulled these breakers?

 

[Poolshark314]

What did the buss look like when you pulled these breakers?

Couldn't get a good picture but like a burn mark from a spark on the bottom side mostly. Cleaned it off with a wire brush before replacing the breakers

 

[Beerhippie]

Not sure if I mentioned this before, but tighten every screw on the wire clamps while you have the main breaker off. A loose electrical connection will cause overheating and all kinds of problems like what you're seeing. Heat cycling over the years will cause the screw to loosen. I go through and retighten all of the hundred-odd breakers for the brewery and pub every couple of years--and it's about time again.

 

[Poolshark314]

Not sure if I mentioned this before, but tighten every screw on the wire clamps while you have the main breaker off. A loose electrical connection will cause overheating and all kinds of problems like what you're seeing. Heat cycling over the years will cause the screw to loosen. I go through and retighten all of the hundred-odd breakers for the brewery and pub every couple of years--and it's about time again.

Yes absolutely! When I separated the neutrals and grounds, I made sure all of the lugs were tightened

 

[PCustoms]

Couldn't get a good picture but like a burn mark from a spark on the bottom side mostly. Cleaned it off with a wire brush before replacing the breakers

I'd keep an eye on that...

Maybe consider moving a lower amperage breaker there for the time being. Now that that point is compromised, plus likely to continue being a bad connection, making more heat.

The wire brush may have been a bad move.

 

[mm08822]

So you found this on your own and the electrician who checked the panel didn't!?!?!?

Try to move the cb's away from the damaged buss stab, preferably not re-using it. Also make sure the same 2 new cb's are not sharing the new location buss tab(s). Close up the now un-used cb holes in the cover with mfr's blank slot covers.

If you have to re-use the damaged buss stab, it will need some light repair. With main cb turned off and power verified off, clean the buss stab top and bottom sides with an eraser (only). Apply a light coating of penetrox* to both sides of it with a Q-tip. Then move cb's with low draw to those slots.

Looks like you could replace a few single pole cb's at the bottom of the panel with tandems if you need to free up space to abandon the damaged buss stab.

*Not the intended use for penetrox but it can help keep the air off of the damaged surfaces.

Most likely the stink on the gfci cb was from the adjacent cb case melting and is still perfectly good.

Call that electrician back and tell him he is useless.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Cleaned it off with a wire brush before replacing the breakers

not a good idea at all. wire brush can further damage it

 

[Poolshark314]

I'd keep an eye on that...

Maybe consider moving a lower amperage breaker there for the time being. Now that that point is compromised, plus likely to continue being a bad connection, making more heat.

The wire brush may have been a bad move.

So you found this on your own and the electrician who checked the panel didn't!?!?!?

Try to move the cb's away from the damaged buss stab, preferably not re-using it. Also make sure the same 2 new cb's are not sharing the new location buss tab(s). Close up the now un-used cb holes in the cover with mfr's blank slot covers.

If you have to re-use the damaged buss stab, it will need some light repair. With main cb turned off and power verified off, clean the buss stab top and bottom sides with an eraser (only). Apply a light coating of penetrox* to both sides of it with a Q-tip. Then move cb's with low draw to those slots.

Looks like you could replace a few single pole cb's at the bottom of the panel with tandems if you need to free up space to abandon the damaged buss stab.

*Not the intended use for penetrox but it can help keep the air off of the damaged surfaces.

Most likely the stink on the gfci cb was from the adjacent cb case melting and is still perfectly good.

Call that electrician back and tell him he is useless.

not a good idea at all. wire brush can further damage it

Ok thank you all for that advice. I'll move the breakers off that stab

 

[bwringer]

So you found this on your own and the electrician who checked the panel didn't!?!?!?...

That's just how some "perfeshunals" operate. Sell the replacement, never the repair. At least now you know.


A few years after we moved in, I called the company that installed my heat pump because it wasn't working and, well, their sticker was right there.

Instead of a technician with a tool bag, they sent a tanned, perfumed, perfectly oiled and coiffed Chippendales-grade muscle hunk in tight black pants, a gleaming tailored white dress shirt straining to contain his vast shoulders, pecs, and arms, and, I **** thee not, a tiny black bow tie under his chiseled chin. A real dreamboat if that sort of thing is the sort of thing that's your sort of thing.

And of course he was equipped with a pen and a clipboard, not so much as a meter or screwdriver in sight. After five minutes and a few glances at the system (but never touching it once, lest he soil his immaculate manicure), he produced a $10,000 estimate, handed me the pen, and with a flash of his steel-blue eyes, said "sign here".

Being immune to his considerable charms, I declined and sent him away to seek someone whose judgement he could cloud, or perhaps a bachelorette party to enhance.

Out of the entire spectacle he presented, the white dress shirt was the thing that really puzzled me; there's nothing that screams "I'm not actually here to fix anything" any louder.

After a little more rummaging around, I found a different company that sent out a properly scruffy gent in possession of a screwdriver and meter, who made the needed repairs that day for around $700 and kept the system going for another ten years.

 

[Poolshark314]

Moved the 240v breakers elsewhere, and now the 2nd stab has a rarely used 120v breaker, and a spare breaker. New electrician scheduled for tomorrow. I'm confident even if a new panel is in order, it would be less than $9,500 lol. Thanks again all!

 

[PCustoms]

Moved the 240v breakers elsewhere, and now the 2nd stab has a rarely used 120v breaker, and a spare breaker. New electrician scheduled for tomorrow. I'm confident even if a new panel is in order, it would be less than $9,500 lol. Thanks again all!

Unfortunately in some areas a permit to replace a panel triggers a lot of retrofit work to bring everything to current code.

If it were me I'd swap the panel, but I can also take care of it over a weekend and we don't even do permits here.

 

[Poolshark314]

I got a couple better pics of the stab in question last night:

 

[mm08822]

Actually, that is not too bad at all. I wouldn't change the panel out for that reason alone.