Help with detached shed/garage wiring...

[nuts4coke]

The FNG here... I have questions.

I've built a shed/garage in my back yard and am to the point of hiring an electrician to wire it for 240. I plan on running a two stage Ingersoll-Rand compressor as well as have a 220volt Miller MIG welder at the ready. I want to have it insulated and a heating/cooling window air conditioner installed.

Shed is 16'x24', with a pedestrian door and garage door. Approximately ten 110 outlets on two separate circuits and one or two 220 outlets (for welder, etc). One ceiling fan, and four "two-bulb" fluorescent lighting fixtures hanging. The lights will be controlled by two switches, one at the garage door and one at the pedestrian door. There will also be one outside light controlled by a switch, and the fan by a switch.

The main box on the outside of my house has six connections (breakers) and is full, so the electrician will put in a sub-panel (?) next to it and move one of the breakers over and use the empty slot to channel the power over to the sub panel.

It is approximately 125 feet from panel to shed where service will enter the shed. I added ten feet for good measure to account for trenching and running wire down from shed power panel to in-ground conduit and from new sub panel to in-ground conduit. So, 135 feet total.

I live in Northwest Florida, have sandy soil, and am planning on "trenching" this Saturday to 28" for the conduit.

Here are my questions.
1) what gauge or type of wire should the electrician be using? He mentioned "one ought" during his initial visit which I'm assuming is #1/0? Is this correct? I've seen several things here on the forum indicating wire like XHHW-2, or #2 AL, even 2-2-2-4... for sheds, etc.... And being the novice, I'm confused. He quoted me over $850 just in wiring (he rough measured 115 feet, versus my exact 135 feet) which he said was quote "100 amp direct burial" and said its $7.75 per foot. I'm looking at all the forum stuff on these different wires mentioned above and seems I can get 500 foot rolls for that kind of money at the big retail places (Lowes, Home Depot). Shocked the hell outta me.

That being said, here's my second question...
2) what size conduit should I use for your recommended wire? I know he (the electrician) says its direct burial, but he's told me we're putting it in conduit. So, based on other forum posts here I'm thinking 1-1/2"? (One and a half inch PVC?)

So he quoted me $200 for the shed work, $300 for the shed panel, and $880 for the wire.

Call me crazy, but red flags are flying everywhere here. $1400 for 240 service 135 feet away?

Please give me your input, recommendations, etc.

Also, if you have questions, ask them and I will try to answer. Ya know, I'm an electronics technician for the Air Force, and it's funny how a good majority of my knowledge on this doesn't translate. I'm a duck out of water. Thank you in advance...

Note: I can provide pictures if needed.




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[wyliesdiesels]

First off thats a rip for that size wire. U can get #2 MHF for around $1.5/ft. Adding on a little bit for overhead and profit still doesnt come close to almost $8/ft...

#2 AL MHF is good for 90a in your situation.

And even though a cable is direct burial, i would still use conduit.

Second, how many HP is your compressor?

What size is the AC?

And the mig welder?

How many amps is your main service on your house and what electric loads do u have in your house?

You might be pushing things a bit with 90a or 100a at the garage seeing that u will have a compressor, mig wleder and AC unit which im sure could all be running at the same time. But before we can know for sure, we need to know the sizes of these...

And seeing as u have one of those skimpy cheap *** 6 space main load centers, u should post a pic of it and the model info. U may be very limited on your load capacity. Geez i cant stand thise panels!

 

[Wirepuller]

You're saying 1400 for everything with labor? That sounds incredibly inexpensive.

 

[nuts4coke]

Ok. I will post picture this afternoon when I get off work. Also, yes, $1400 for whole job and I've already put in the outlet boxes and switch boxes. He's just gotta drill holes and run wire and hook thing up in the shed... I'm starting to think he doesn't want the job... And just priced it high so I would walk away and look elsewhere. For that kind of money, I'll do the research, do it all my self but the connections, and hire a guy to inspect and connect. I expected between $750 and $1000, but $1400 seems outrageous to me as well.

 

[Wirepuller]

In Florida it may be different but I would be around 2000-2500 to do that in greater Boston and I would be middle of the road price wise. 500ish in material and a day for a journeyman with a helper.

 

[nuts4coke]

I'm trenching it myself this weekend. Renting the trencher for $116 for 4 hours. Going to run a 28" trench... So that's not part of his work load. He's got sub-panel, conduit, wire, panel, and wiring the items in the shed which I mentioned in the first post. My heart burn isn't labor, but $7.76 a foot for wire. I'm not paying that. I'm pretty sure I can get a breaker panel at HD for less than 300 also.


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[pattenp]

The $7.75 has got to be the install price per foot for the wire, conduit, parts and pieces not including digging the tench. $1400 may be a little high for the job but not by much. Is his price for copper feeder?

 

[SkeeterAg99]

Im in your boat. I'm doing all the work inside myself however. Im trenching the 24" pvc and 2-2-2-4 mhf . Everything will be hooked up inside shop and im just hiring the electrician to do the house hook up. Im not doing anything fancy inside. Each side plugs on seperate 20 amp. Overhead lights on 15 or 20 amp depending on how many I use, and outdoor lights. I won't hook up 220 at first since I don't have welder but will have the space if I need it later. No ac or heater. I'm using an eaton 100 amp panel with the 2-2-2-4.

 

[justsam]

Hard to judge material price when we are not sure of what material he is using. Is he using a multi conductor cable, copper or aluminum, or is he proposing individual conductors in conduit?

 

[nuts4coke]

I'll ask material he is planning on using at the 7.76 price point.

Per previous question, the Mig welder uses 230V, 25amp, 60hz 1-phase. Same for the compressor but 35A. The A/C-heater unit plugs into a regular. 110 outlet rated for 15A per the users manual. So add in some lighting and there ya go. I can't see having the compressor, heater/ac unit, AND welder all going at once while I'm out there at night with the stereo on, tv, and computer, but who knows... I can be a power hungry freak from time to time. LOL

I'll ask if he's using copper or alum.... Is there anything he SHOULD be using? Isn't copper the preferred?


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[nuts4coke]

Let me just say, I would think using a target of 100amp is going to be sufficient... maybe even overkill, but better to think of future needs, correct?


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[nuts4coke]

Hard to judge material price when we are not sure of what material he is using. Is he using a multi conductor cable, copper or aluminum, or is he proposing individual conductors in conduit?

Here is what he said, specifically sent to me in a text message:

AND now that I've looked at figures again, I'm missing the 300 at the sub panel, so technically he wants $1700 to do the job.


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[Wirepuller]

Seems even more realistic now. IMO.

 

[nuts4coke]

So you think $7.76 a foot for wire is realistic? Wait, are you the electrician that I asked the quote from?


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[Wirepuller]

No the total price seems more inline with what I thought it would be.

He seems low on everything and really high on the feeder.

 

[justsam]

Sounds like this is not a total conduit run, but just stub ups and then direct bury. The mention of Noalox indicates he is planning on using aluminum conductors.

If you plan on being able to do any future power upgrades I would want the entire run to be in conduit, and the incremental add should not be that much. It also gives additional protection from a future "dig up".

Based on your planned usage, I see nothing wrong with the 100, or even 90 amp service. I would make a dedicated 20 Amp circuit for the AC unit, but that is not required.

It looks like he has made a per foot cost on an "all in" basis. Makes sense from a perspective of giving total job estimates. Not fair to compare that to a wire only cost at Home Depot.

Is the total cost in line? Only way to know for sure is to get other estimates. Too many variables based on area, required permits, etc.

 

[nuts4coke]

Justsam, that all makes sense and I agree with the "all conduit". I'll be sure to cover these points with him the next time we talk, which should be today or tomorrow. I try to be a quality over quantity type of guy and when it comes to this I want it done right and done with good parts anticipating future needs, that's for sure. I'm just shocked at his figures knowing what I can buy the individual components for at my local big box retailer. Which maybe I'll do. I need to ask him if he has a set hourly rate as well. To simply say "$300 for the shed panel" when I can purchase something like that Eaton 100 amp that skeeterag99 mentions for around 95 bucks here locally. Not sure why a unit, even installed, would run $300.


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[wyliesdiesels]

Since he is direct burying the feeder, no conduit, aluminum wire, and youre doing the trenching, the price seems even less reasonable.

The other costs arent too bad.

Yes, u can do it yourself for far cheaper but u have to consider his overhead costs too.

The only price that seems high to me is the feeder!

I would shop around and see what other bids u get!

 

[Aceman]

I think you should call another LICENSED electrical contractor or two and get bids from them.

Make sure you give them specifics on what you want so it keeps everyone on the same page and makes all the bids apples to apples.

 

[nuts4coke]

Okay. All good advice, thank you.

As requested, here's some pics of the main panel. (Hope I captured what you were interested in). I also took some of the route the trench is going to take.

I may use this thread to just outline the whole project for those that are interested in this 'portable shed' becoming my 'man cave'.













on a side note: anyone know how to get that 'staining' off the house brick from the sprinkler system?

 

[nuts4coke]

ALSO: per my initial post, any idea on what wire should be run for this?

Initial post: "what gauge or type of wire should the electrician be using? He mentioned "one ought" during his initial visit which I'm assuming is #1/0? Is this correct? I've seen several things here on the forum indicating wire like XHHW-2, or #2 AL, even 2-2-2-4... for sheds, etc.... And being the novice, I'm confused."

 

[happy2rv]

I'm trenching it myself this weekend. Renting the trencher for $116 for 4 hours. Going to run a 28" trench... So that's not part of his work load. He's got sub-panel, conduit, wire, panel, and wiring the items in the shed which I mentioned in the first post. My heart burn isn't labor, but $7.76 a foot for wire. I'm not paying that. I'm pretty sure I can get a breaker panel at HD for less than 300 also.


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I'm confused $880/135 is more like 6.51 a foot and yes you can buy a panel at HD or Lowe's for less than $300. However, try this. Get a quote from 2 licensed contractors willing to stand behind their work with materials you provide. You likely won't find 1 much less 2. The prices quoted include labor, I assume warranty, and dealing with the inspectors if necessary. The panel prices include circuit breakers and labor. Are the prices unreasonable? Impossible to say until you define what's included. As you stated, you can go to home depot and pick up a $35 panel you will have to add a main breaker for disconnect and any additional necessary breakers plus labor, mounting hardware, fittings, etc... However, I wouldn't use that panel if someone paid me. If that is the panel your electrician is planning on using, I would get a different electrician. Now price the panel he IS planning to use, add in a couple of hours labor and see how close you are to $300.

The $880 for wire includes the conduit stubs, LBs, fittings, mounting straps, labor etc... As others suggested, I would recommend a full conduit run as well, but it will be more expensive.

The only way to tell if his prices are out of line is to get multiple detailed quotes that show what materials are being used by each potential contractor and compare them. The construction estimator at get-a-quote.net lists the total for a 200A 24 space rain tight load center as $446, but it varies by location and materials.

 

[nuts4coke]

I'm confused $880/135 is more like 6.51 a foot

Sorry, I will update original post. He 'figured' 115 feet, I measured this morning and came up with 135....

but based on his 115, it's 7.75-ish per foot.

 

[barnjunkie]

on a side note: anyone know how to get that 'staining' off the house brick from the sprinkler system?[/QUOTE]

To remove the mold from your brick, you can get a pump-up sprayer and place a gallon of bleach in it and spray all of it. Let it sit for 30 minutes or so, and re-spray, then rub the brick with a broom or a brush. Rinse with a sprayer and it should come right off.

 

[nuts4coke]

It's not mold, but rather a "staining" of the brick from the slight red-clay tint that our ground water has here...


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[justsam]

At some point you have to hire someone you trust to do a professional installation in a workmanship like manner, without telling him how to do it. (I am guilty of this myself)

Your desired end state is to have 100 Amp service in your shed. How it is done, with what materials, etc. should be left up to the electrician, assuming the first paragraph.

Let the electrician know if you plan future upgrades so there can be total conduit, or extra breaker spaces if needed. No two people, DIY or professional, are going to do the job in exactly the same manner, but let the person bidding the job know what it is you do require.

From your first post it sounded like you had installed boxes for the local distribution such as switches, receptacles, etc. but that wiring was also to be done by the electrician?

Looking at it all in, I think the price is reasonable for the work involved.

 

[nuts4coke]

Yeah I hear you. I've been very cordial with him and will politely to ask him to explain his figures and tell him so I know what I'm getting. And I'll reiterate my needs and like you say "future needs/wants". I'll post here when the work is underway by him or another contractor. I just wanted advice, although the I still haven't heard people answer the question of what should be used.... #1/0, MHF, XHHW-2, 2-2-2-4, etc.... I don't know the difference but wanted to be able to ask here and ask him what he plans on using.

I appreciate all the input though. Thank you.


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[DC73]

It's not mold, but rather a "staining" of the brick from the slight red-clay tint that our ground water has here...


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Around here, we get white stains from the hard minerals in our water. I once used muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid) to clean up some sloppy mortar joint repair work on a previous house. It did the job and also removed the white stains. Your mileage may vary. You can dilute the acid with water (at least 50/50 but you might want to try a weaker acid solution first), spread it on with a cheap paint brush, let it sit and bubble for a few minutes, scrub it with a stiff brush, then rinse it off. Test this in an inconspicuous area before you do the whole area.

DC

 

[dw1]

I just wanted advice, although the I still haven't heard people answer the question of what should be used.... #1/0, MHF, XHHW-2, 2-2-2-4, etc.... I don't know the difference but wanted to be able to ask here and ask him what he plans on using.

I appreciate all the input though. Thank you.


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I guess its preference or readily available material, I use XHHW alot, it is a direct burial wire, you can install in conduit or dump it in the trench. I usually get bigger wire at the supply house, its cheaper. 14/2-12/2-10/2 at HD or lowes, everything else at supply house.

 

[Aceman]

I guess its preference or readily available material, I use XHHW alot, it is a direct burial wire, you can install in conduit or dump it in the trench. I usually get bigger wire at the supply house, its cheaper. 14/2-12/2-10/2 at HD or lowes, everything else at supply house.

XHHW is NOT direct burial rated.

http://www.southwire.com/products/XHHWaluminum.htm

USE though is direct burial rated.

http://www.southwire.com/products/renew-rhh-rhw-use-alumnium-600v.htm

 

[dw1]

XHHW is NOT direct burial rated.

http://www.southwire.com/products/XHHWaluminum.htm

USE though is direct burial rated.

http://www.southwire.com/products/renew-rhh-rhw-use-alumnium-600v.htm

I guess I need to get the gap between the brain/fingers and keyboard closer together. While reading post about XHHW, I use URD alot, you can install in conduit or dump ina ditch, sorry for mis info. Its usually cheaper at supply house than at HD or Lowes, but I think HD and Lowes do carry this.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yeah I hear you. I've been very cordial with him and will politely to ask him to explain his figures and tell him so I know what I'm getting. And I'll reiterate my needs and like you say "future needs/wants". I'll post here when the work is underway by him or another contractor. I just wanted advice, although the I still haven't heard people answer the question of what should be used.... #1/0, MHF, XHHW-2, 2-2-2-4, etc.... I don't know the difference but wanted to be able to ask here and ask him what he plans on using.

I appreciate all the input though. Thank you.


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The size of wire used is dependent on the breaker size. For u 90a should be plenty. So i would use #2-2-2-4 AL MHF/mobile home which can be direct buried but must be in conduit inside. I would use conduit all the way for ease of change out should it ever need to be.

I guess I need to get the gap between the brain/fingers and keyboard closer together. While reading post about XHHW, I use URD alot, you can install in conduit or dump ina ditch, sorry for mis info. Its usually cheaper at supply house than at HD or Lowes, but I think HD and Lowes do carry this.

URD with no RHH/RHW ratings CANNOT be installed inside.

 

[dw1]

The size of wire used is dependent on the breaker size. For u 90a should be plenty. So i would use #2-2-2-4 AL MHF/mobile home which can be direct buried but must be in conduit inside. I would use conduit all the way for ease of change out should it ever need to be.



URD with no RHH/RHW ratings CANNOT be installed inside.

As I was thinking about it (usually where I get into memory trouble) but I did check at the supply house today, they have URD, it is USE-2, RHH, RHW stamped on the cable. Home Depot by me no longer carries any aluminum service wire, their only choice is 3/0 copper THHN. The URD 4/0. 4/0. 2/0 is $2.10 a foot

 

[wyliesdiesels]

As I was thinking about it (usually where I get into memory trouble) but I did check at the supply house today, they have URD, it is USE-2, RHH, RHW stamped on the cable. Home Depot by me no longer carries any aluminum service wire, their only choice is 3/0 copper THHN. The URD 4/0. 4/0. 2/0 is $2.10 a foot

Since this is a branch feeder, then the wire needs to be 4-conductor! Only service entrance wire can be 3-wire...

 

[dw1]

Sorry, I am jumpimg back and forth, I am talking about using this as a service entrance, the next one I will be doing, hopefully will be mine. Just 3 wires