Help with LV diagram

[Fyrme]

Ok, help me out here fella's. As embarrassing as it is, being a licensed electrical journeyman, my weakness falls in low voltage wiring. I think I tend to over think it when reading diagrams to the point of frustration, then I lock up. Anyway, I've got this mag lock I am trying to adapt to lock a cabinet, with the idea that it will only be in the unlock condition when I push a momentary button. I also ran across a momentary button I found in a scrap pile, just like I was going to buy. However I got it home to find out it was a N/O and not rated for 12v, and I think I may need a N/C. By looking at this crappy excuse for diagram, can I use the N/O button to drop the holding circuit?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If u want to use the switch in-line with the power feed to the magnet then yes u need a N/C switch.

I dont see a way to send a signal(from a n/o switch) to tell the magnet PS to open the magnet power circuit.

 

[pgray007]

That's an instruction sheet only a bench engineer could love, but to me it looks like if you short 3 and 4 you'll open the lock, so your NO switch should do the trick. The thing I like about LV is that it's easy enough to experiment without zapping yourself. Try a jumper between 3/4 and 4/5 and see which releases the magnet.


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[pgray007]

If u want to use the switch in-line with the power feed to the magnet then yes u need a N/C switch.

I dont see a way to send a signal(from a n/o switch) to tell the magnet PS to open the magnet power circuit.

It looks like the magnet gets power on terminals 1/2. In not sure what the BAS is or how that fits into the equation though.


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[ard]

That is some **** instructions.... I've worked with gates, mag locks, etc... Sometimes the stuff seems to be written by people that designed it, and they fail to include everything needed...

I've looked up your item on sdssecuirty and there isn't anything better. All those connections on there are for things OTHER than "open swtich".

Any chance you can post a picture of the actual circuit board?

Edit: If you are lucky, they will have a lock input that works with either and NC or NO contact... Some of their other inputs look like this.... Let's see

 

[snyder]

The bas switch is (building alarm system). It sends a door closed/open signal back to the monitoring system.

 

[ard]

I believe the missing piece is a box that powers the lock:

BAS is the Magnetic Bond Sensor- the unit measures the strength of the mag connection and signals if if is not fully closed, misaligned, jimmied, etc (A non-issue for OP) As pointed out above this is an 'alarm' back to the building.


Is this whole thing as simple as a momentary OFF switch that controls power to the 'Lock PWR' connection? OP, if you have a 12VDC power supply, give it a whirl.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

OP can u take a better pic including the rest of the page. Info on the right is missing.

That's an instruction sheet only a bench engineer could love, but to me it looks like if you short 3 and 4 you'll open the lock, so your NO switch should do the trick. The thing I like about LV is that it's easy enough to experiment without zapping yourself. Try a jumper between 3/4 and 4/5 and see which releases the magnet.


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3, 4, & 5 is for something else called the DPS or door position switch. This is used to send signal to a seperate system that the door is open or closed.

I dont see anything on that board for triggering an open and close for the power circuit for the mag which is powered by J1.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

That's an instruction sheet only a bench engineer could love, but to me it looks like if you short 3 and 4 you'll open the lock, so your NO switch should do the trick. The thing I like about LV is that it's easy enough to experiment without zapping yourself. Try a jumper between 3/4 and 4/5 and see which releases the magnet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I believe the missing piece is a box that powers the lock:

BAS is the Magnetic Bond Sensor- the unit measures the strength of the mag connection and signals if if is not fully closed, misaligned, jimmied, etc (A non-issue for OP) As pointed out above this is an 'alarm' back to the building.


Is this whole thing as simple as a momentary OFF switch that controls power to the 'Lock PWR' connection? OP, if you have a 12VDC power supply, give it a whirl.

Yes a power supply is needed obviously but OPs question is how to control power to mag.

Im thinking an inline N/C momentary switch interupting the power to the mag.

Or, depending on power supply used, there can be a contact erminal on the power supply relay board that the switch would connect to. All depends on model of power supply.

 

[Fyrme]

If u want to use the switch in-line with the power feed to the magnet then yes u need a N/C switch.

I dont see a way to send a signal(from a n/o switch) to tell the magnet PS to open the magnet power circuit.

That was my original plan, and it may end up working out now. I cut the heat shrink off the back of the switch and found that it is actually a 5 wire switch, having a unused N/C terminal. I unsoldered the N/O and moved it to the N/C terminal, so now I have a working momentary N/C switch. My concern now is that the switch says 2.8v. I'm not sure if that only pertains to the illumination circuit of the switch (which I am not using), or the entire switch? The mag lock only pulls .25A @ 12vdc or .125A @ 24vdc.

That is some **** instructions.... I've worked with gates, mag locks, etc... Sometimes the stuff seems to be written by people that designed it, and they fail to include everything needed...

I've looked up your item on sdssecuirty and there isn't anything better. All those connections on there are for things OTHER than "open swtich".

Any chance you can post a picture of the actual circuit board?

Edit: If you are lucky, they will have a lock input that works with either and NC or NO contact... Some of their other inputs look like this.... Let's see

I believe the missing piece is a box that powers the lock:


BAS is the Magnetic Bond Sensor- the unit measures the strength of the mag connection and signals if if is not fully closed, misaligned, jimmied, etc (A non-issue for OP) As pointed out above this is an 'alarm' back to the building.


Is this whole thing as simple as a momentary OFF switch that controls power to the 'Lock PWR' connection? OP, if you have a 12VDC power supply, give it a whirl.

Yes that was my initial thought to all this before opening up the box on the mag lock. I will be supplying power via backup battery and 12V power supply, but won't be from an alarm panel. I was all geared up this morning to test this thing out and grabbed an old 12v 2a wall transformer I had lying around, but I then noticed it was 12vAC, so now I'm still stuck in the planning phase. Good thing I noticed the AC though huh?

OP can u take a better pic including the rest of the page. Info on the right is missing.



3, 4, & 5 is for something else called the DPS or door position switch. This is used to send signal to a seperate system that the door is open or closed.

I dont see anything on that board for triggering an open and close for the power circuit for the mag which is powered by J1.

The rest of the page only shows a similar diagram for a different model lock.


I didn't really disclose the details of this project in order to save you ADD guys the distraction
Here is the link to my project if you care to read it. The whole Idea behind this budget minded project is to keep it under $100. So far I'm $40 in to it...
Hotpoint Gun Cabinet

 

[wyliesdiesels]

A gun cabinet??

Now u have this electrician and low voltage tech even more interested.

Though around here a gun cabinet like that wouldnt fly with all the liberals running the roost.

Something like that would require a locking electric switch whose terminals are inaccessible inside a steal box which requires a cutting torch to open to prevent criminals from stealing the guns.

Where do u plan on mounting this switch?

 

[matt_i]

Here's my take: (an opinion based on what i see there)

The anti-tamper switch is a combination of a NO and a NC contact that both have to "hit" or change states within a small time window to allow the lock to actuate (electromagnet strength dropped). Hence the extra wires and specialized switch.

In my opinion, the DPS (door position) and BAS (magnet strength) are both feedback elements to confirm what the ATS just commanded for interlocking (or monitoring) with other systems, one being a larger building security system as was mentioned.

I would try to call the manufacturer and speak with tech support and someone will probably remove hours of guessing in a few minutes.

A very safe way of experimenting would be to drop the input power to the lock and see if the electromagnet loses strength.

 

[Fyrme]

Here's my take: (an opinion based on what i see there)

The anti-tamper switch is a combination of a NO and a NC contact that both have to "hit" or change states within a small time window to allow the lock to actuate. Hence the extra wires and specialized switch.

In my opinion, the DPS (door position) and BAS (magnet strength) are both feedback elements to confirm what the ATS just commanded for interlocking with other systems, building security as was mentioned.

I would try to call the manufacturer and speak with tech support and someone will probably remove hours of guessing in a few minutes.

Thanks Matt, I may end up doing that. But first, I think I'm going to try and power it up and just play with the N/O, N/C contacts to see if it will drop the power via the circuit board. If that doesn't work, I'll go the power interrupt route.

 

[Fyrme]

A gun cabinet??

Now u have this electrician and low voltage tech even more interested.

Though around here a gun cabinet like that wouldnt fly with all the liberals running the roost.

Something like that would require a locking electric switch whose terminals are inaccessible inside a steal box which requires a cutting torch to open to prevent criminals from stealing the guns.

Where do u plan on mounting this switch?

If I told ya that, I'd have to kill ya. That and everyone else that reads this. You don't want all that blood on your hands do ya?

I will say though I will not classify this as a "gun Safe" for the simple reason, that it technically won't meet those required specs, ya know for your California lawyer types. lol

I am however trying to build this to exceed your typical store bought fire rated cabinet specs. By adding this mag lock with a hidden release rather than adding a visible pad lock, it will keep little kids out as well as your common thief that passes right by it on his way to the tv. Well unless he's thirsty. Then he might when he can't open the door. It will weight around 350lbs, and won't be bolted down. So even with the leverage of a prybar, the 1200lb holding force of the magnet will be tough to open without knocking it over first.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I assume u will hide the wires? otherwise a thief could simply cut the wires and release the mag.

 

[Fyrme]

Yes, all the wires will be internally hidden, the only thing you will see is a cord like this that is era correct.


powering a charging transformer attached to the back of the fridg along with a ~5aH battery behind a metal cover. This setup should get me uninterrupted power up to about 8hours if it gets unplugged or there is a power outage.

 

[matt_i]

I was thinking a little about this. I am guessing that the door-closed signal is needed before the magnetic flux is turned on. The reason for that would be if the electromagnet turned on before the door was fully closed it could slam hard enough to damage something, probably the electromagnet itself.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I was thinking a little about this. I am guessing that the door-closed signal is needed before the magnetic flux is turned on. The reason for that would be if the electromagnet turned on before the door was fully closed it could slam hard enough to damage something, probably the electromagnet itself.

I do access control systems. Just finished one for an assisted living facility. We didnt use any kind of door position sensor on the mag locked doors but all the doors had closers so u may be on to something.

 

[ard]

I was thinking a little about this. I am guessing that the door-closed signal is needed before the magnetic flux is turned on. The reason for that would be if the electromagnet turned on before the door was fully closed it could slam hard enough to damage something, probably the electromagnet itself.

The mag field is very limited, the plate is only attracted under one half inch away.... In fact, one side of the mag or plate is usually 'floating' since even a slight misalignment can result in dramatic loss of holding force.

I still think 12vdc to the power terminal will turn on the mag and lock it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The mag field is very limited, the plate is only attracted under one half inch away.... In fact, one side of the mag or plate is usually 'floating' since even a slight misalignment can result in dramatic loss of holding force.

I still think 12vdc to the power terminal will turn on the mag and lock it.

yes but thats not what the OP was asking about. He was trying to figure out if there is a terminal on the board where a N/O momentary switch can de-energize the magnet.

This is moot since he found out the switch also has N/C contacts as well.

However the switch isnt rated for 12v so.....

 

[larry1962us]

Thanks Matt, I may end up doing that. But first, I think I'm going to try and power it up and just play with the N/O, N/C contacts to see if it will drop the power via the circuit board. If that doesn't work, I'll go the power interrupt route.

This maglock has a option for a built in door position switch. The N/O, N/C on the board is used for sending the door state to an access control system that monitors the door state. You can't break power the way you want through those connections. The momentary switch you have is the correct way to break power for your maglock (with the assumption being the switch is rated for 12vdc).


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[ard]

[/b]

yes but thats not what the OP was asking about. He was trying to figure out if there is a terminal on the board where a N/O momentary switch can de-energize the magnet.

This is moot since he found out the switch also has N/C contacts as well.

However the switch isnt rated for 12v so.....

I thought he wanted to know how to use the switch to turn the mag on and off....

Not necessarily via a switch input to the board

 

[Fyrme]

You are both right. When I originally came up with this idea, I was just going to use a switch to break power. Then when opened it up and looked at the diagram, I was thinking there was a way to break the power to the magnet via contacts. That's when I posted up about help with the diagram, because it wasn't making sense to me. In the end, after hearing from you guys, it looks like I'm going back to plan A.