Help with wire size for a 50 and 30 amp circuit...

[Pugly]

Well I decided not to try and wire my garage/barn myself and hired what I thought was a competent electrician. His work so far has left me wondering and his pay me first attitude now has me worried.

I told him that I needed a (2)220 volt outlets at the far end of my shop. One 30amp for a compressor and a 50 amp for a welder I might get someday. He has run a 12 gauge THHN wire single strand wire to handle this load, The run is about 70 feet from the box.

I am looking at it thinking it should be bigger........ but then what do the heck do I know.

I know someone here would know. What you guys think?



also second question.. when he bid the job he told me he was going to run the overhead (20 ft up) lighting wiring in a conduit and the run flex wire down to the hanging lights, now he has changed his mind and decided just to use all flex wire, Other than unsightly to me, is this okay to do?

 

[56nash]

Minimum #10 for 30 amp, and minimum #8 for 50 amp. I am not an electrician but work as an engineer and use the handy dandy Ugly's guide every day.

 

[antinym]

12 is way too thin. Fire him or make him do it right. He's probably trying to save money so he has a bigger profit.

I'm also going to guess he didn't pull permits or made you pull them....

 

[Pugly]

I also noticed that he doesn't have a ground wire in the conduit. I don't know if he is deleting it or he plans on grounding it to the metal box. The metal box is screwed to a metal beam that runs around the shop and also the main panel is mounted to and grounded to the same beam. Can you do that?


Yea and my house in out in a rural are where no permits are pulled.

 

[creativecars]

RED Flag, red flag!!
Wow, not even close for the 220 circuits. The 12 gauge will work for the lights, but not the welder or compressor.
Did he represent himself as an Electrician?
The 10 and 8 gauge would be min., 8 and 6 better. What did he bid $ for this. Permits should be pulled and should meet code.
Did you pay up front???

 

[Pugly]

Yea like a ******* I paid him partial up front......

 

[creativecars]

At this point you can use the internet to look up and print out proper wire sizes, connections, boxes, breakers, ect... Print it out and show it to the "Electrician".

He is working on YOUR garage and you dont want it being a hazzard. Hooking a 12 gauge wire to a 50A breaker will cause a problem.

 

[Pugly]

OMG! Man it took a turn for the worse today........ I agree and I didn't think his wiring was up to par. .... He has done just a lot of bullshitting me over the last couple of days, always late, always got some BS story. Well He got to what he said was his halfway point and was very rudely demanding more money, I told him I was not happy so far and that his "new" plan of wiring my overhead lights wasn't what we discussed or agreed on, He also now wanted to back out of renting scaffolding to reach the 20ft tall ceiling and just use MY 24' ladder. Which by the way he has been using all along. Anyway I told him that if he was halfway, I have paid you half and we should just part ways. The ladder Idea I was uncomfortable with and I didn't want him falling off a ladder and getting hurt.

He went freakin ballistic, started threatening me with lawsuits, I was like Sue Me, I'll let the judge figure it out, when he seen that wasn't bothering me, He started telling me that he was a Mexican from the Bario and started threatening bodily harm.

Holy Chit! I was like man, lets just cut ties, let me get someone with the right equipment to finish the job and just write each other off. NO WAY he is a Mexican from the Bario and he is now got his Gansta Mexican buddies out to get me. How the hell do I get myself into this chit?

 

[ponchopower]

If I'm not mistaken, most building codes require 6 for 50amp.

 

[Norcal]

If I'm not mistaken, most building codes require 6 for 50amp.

Depends on the wiring method. 8 AWG THHN is 50A but NM cable would require 6 AWG.

 

[tdkkart]

If I'm not mistaken, most building codes require 6 for 50amp.

Oh no, let's not forget the welder exclusion which for some assinine reason allows 10 or 12ga wire hooked between a 50A breaker and a 50A outlet.

 

[ponchopower]

Oh no, let's not forget the welder exclusion which for some assinine reason allows 10 or 12ga wire hooked between a 50A breaker and a 50A outlet.

Are you serious? Not being sarcastic. I'm not an electrician, I just slept in a Holiday Inn Express..... Seriously, I just ask a lot of questions to do my own work and recently ran some 40 and 50 amp circuits.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Depends on the wiring method. 8 AWG THHN is 50A but NM cable would require 6 AWG.

At 70' from the breaker, I would want 6 AWG, even with THHN in conduit.

 

[tdkkart]

Are you serious? Not being sarcastic. I'm not an electrician, I just slept in a Holiday Inn Express..... Seriously, I just ask a lot of questions to do my own work and recently ran some 40 and 50 amp circuits.

I don't know the exact code so I won't quote it, but there is an exclusion for an outlets designated as "welder" outlets that allows for smaller wire to a 50A receptacle because of the reduced duty cycles.

The problem I see is that the next guy that comes along and sees the 50A outlet will plug in his electric heater, or powder coating oven without knowing any better, and not realizing that the wire is too small for a continuous duty appliance.

 

[Aceman]

At 70' from the breaker, I would want 6 AWG, even with THHN in conduit.

Waste of money...

 

[ibedayank]

somehow i get the feeling that no permits have been pulled....and so called electrician drives some beatup POS car/truck with NO company name on it. Before i would do anything more i would contact the building codes depart of where you are and find out whats LEGALY needed to do this job right.

 

[Norcal]

somehow i get the feeling that no permits have been pulled....and so called electrician drives some beatup POS car/truck with NO company name on it. Before i would do anything more i would contact the building codes depart of where you are and find out whats LEGALY needed to do this job right.

If true the OP gets a "Taillight Warranty" ,the warranty lasts until you cannot see the taillights of the trunkslammer 's vehicle.

 

[ponchopower]

Waste of money...

Why do you say that? There's a lot of resistance at 70'. These are exactly the kinds of issues that you read about in the news. House fire kills 5 - more at 11pm.

 

[Killer95Stang]

First of all... nobody threatens me in my own house. Since he's already gone, its not like you would allow him to finish after he threatened you. What are his demands now? Does he want you to pay the total bill for an unfinished incorrectly done job? "F" that guy. Spend the balance of the money on a 12 gauge shotgun... so his barrio buddies learn a lesson as well.

With that said, its time to hire someone competent to finish the job.

 

[Aceman]

Why do you say that? There's a lot of resistance at 70'. These are exactly the kinds of issues that you read about in the news. House fire kills 5 - more at 11pm.

If you think running #8 to a welder plug 70' away is going to cause a house fire, then you don't have a clue.

Instead of trying to alarm everyone by yelling "fire" why don't you learn how to do a proper voltage drop calc.

Since I've already done it, I know what the answer is. Do you?

 

[Pugly]

Well, to add to the drama, He did call me back and apologize and tried to resell me into letting him finish the job. When I told him no, he started telling me how I was stealing food from his family, his lights were being cut off etc.

Yuk. I had another guy look at his work and he said actually all but the 220 set up looked okay, but I wasn't exactly getting all that was on the proposal. He specified different circuits for the plugs on the 4 walls but had only had two circuits set up.

I called some other electrical companies today, hopefully one of them will show up. Out of the 4 companies I called the first time, only three showed up and only two called back with prices.

 

[nehog]

Well, to add to the drama, He did call me back and apologize and tried to resell me into letting him finish the job. When I told him no, he started telling me how I was stealing food from his family, his lights were being cut off etc.

Wow, this is headed for the humor area now! No way I'd buy that: the man is desperate and willing to do anything to make a buck, anything except to do the job right! The only one taking food out of his kids mouths is him and his shoddy work. (BTW, I bet he smokes and drinks too... but that's OK for him, because it is ALL YOUR FAULT!)

 

[ponchopower]

If you think running #8 to a welder plug 70' away is going to cause a house fire, then you don't have a clue.

Instead of trying to alarm everyone by yelling "fire" why don't you learn how to do a proper voltage drop calc.

Since I've already done it, I know what the answer is. Do you?

Are you friggin kidding me? Did I say running #8 to a welder plug was definitely going to cause a house fire? Why don't you learn to read?

The POINT is why not do it "right" instead of just making an asanine comment like "waste of money". Geez. I guess you're right. There's just no technical way that any welder could draw enough to ever cause an issue with 8-3 over 70 feet. Just not possible.

There just might be a few deck chairs left for the next trip on the Titanic.

 

[Black Sheep 63]

Hi everyone I'm BLACKSHEEP63 . Hope to get good advice here from all you gentlemen here that know what your doing with electricity

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wow lot of wrong info in this old thread...

 

[Aceman]

It's obvious I had less patience for "special people" 6 years ago than I do now...

 

[MikeF2316]

This is a funny one. OP hasn't been on for 6 years. I wonder how (if) his compressor and welder are working!

I wonder if the OC (original contractor) is still "in business." Did his family starve?

 

[JohnnyK81]

Considering he was about to pull 50 amps through a 12gauge wire, I'd say, everything burned down.

 

[sberry]

Maybe,, I believe the legal limit may have been only 66 ft for this and it would needed to be single circuit in pipe.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Considering he was about to pull 50 amps through a 12gauge wire, I'd say, everything burned down.

Not the case for a welder circuit...code allows reduced size wire for welder circuits due to limited duty cycle...

 

[sberry]

Whoops, I was wrong again,,, Hobart buzzer, 47.5A @ 87 ft. I see the IM230 takes a 10 though, 32A but at a way higher duty cycle.

 

[pitterpat]

This is a funny one. OP hasn't been on for 6 years. I wonder how (if) his compressor and welder are working!

I wonder if the OC (original contractor) is still "in business." Did his family starve?

Looks like original poster only was on GJ to post about his garage expansion and his poor electrical work...NOT a real member.

 

[sberry]

BTW, those are the legal limits, no one thinks its really a great idea. It needs to go up one size for a cable also and it gives it a decent performance boost along the way.

 

[arkieguide]

To begin with #12 awg is not enough even for the compressor. The welder would need #8 minimum - 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground wire. The person you are working with has no electrical knowledge. If the 50 amp use point is 70 feet +, you may think about #6 awg.The 30 amp use point 70' I would go with #8 awg. Even if in a conduit, you still must have a ground wire !The ground wire is your safety wire.All ground wire in your case needs to be green, all neutral wire needs to be white. Hot wires can be color wire. You need to run backwards from these people, i n the future get your agreements in writing.If the people have no scaffolds are ladders - you have hired a crook not a reputable electrician. If you were in my area I would and explain to you what you need to do, to be correct, and safe. I served a union inside wire man apprenticeship started in 1960 for 4 years - then after several years I got a BS in electrical engineering.Prepare yourself for years of trouble and a very good chance of fire.I doubt this person has any knowledge of the N.E.C. Get those people out of there now, if he threatens you call the police.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Even if in a conduit, you still must have a ground wire.........I doubt this person has any knowledge of the N.E.C.

If the conduit is EMT,IMC,or GRC, you don't need a ground wire. The conduit serves as the ground, and actually has less impedance than a properly sized copper grounding conductor....... People living in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks

 

[teamextreme]

If the conduit is EMT,IMC,or GRC, you don't need a ground wire. The conduit serves as the ground, and actually has less impedance than a properly sized copper grounding conductor....... People living in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks

...and a welder circuit doesn't need a neutral. Not to mention THIS THREAD IS 6 FAWKING YEARS OLD! I'm sure the OP who hasn't been here is 6 years is grateful for the response.

 

[alfredeneuman]

I'm sure the OP who hasn't been here is 6 years is grateful for the response.

I'm not the one that revived this dinosaur
(btw, There have been numerous replies this year)

 

[teamextreme]

Sorry, wasn't meant to direct that at you Alfred, just adding to your quote of corrections.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

To begin with #12 awg is not enough even for the compressor. The welder would need #8 minimum - 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground wire. The person you are working with has no electrical knowledge.

Without HP ratings and a welder model, how do you know what size wire is needed?

And a 240v welder doesnt need a neutral.

Making your last sentence ironic and humorous.

If the 50 amp use point is 70 feet +, you may think about #6 awg. The 30 amp use point 70' I would go with #8 awg. Even if in a conduit, you still must have a ground wire !The ground wire is your safety wire.All ground wire in your case needs to be green,

Without knowing actual load and type of load, no way of knowing any of that.

And certain metal conduits are a code compliant EGC.

More bad electrical advice... :

I served a union inside wire man apprenticeship started in 1960 for 4 years - then after several years I got a BS in electrical engineering.

You were in an electrical union and they didnt teach you some basics?

Prepare yourself for years of trouble and a very good chance of fire.

How can you possibly know that without the missing info on the loads?

I doubt this person has any knowledge of the N.E.C.

More ironic statements from you. thx for the laugh...

...and a welder circuit doesn't need a neutral. Not to mention THIS THREAD IS 6 FAWKING YEARS OLD! I'm sure the OP who hasn't been here is 6 years is grateful for the response.

Its funny that arkieguide has 1 post and is already spreading BS...

 

[rburke65]

Wow.....after 6 years I'm thinking everyone needs to go get a beer.....