Help!? - Zero Headspace Door Opener.

[TomH]

Greetings!

My daughter & son-in-law just bought a house with a garage that has zero headspace over their garage doors. Currently, they are manual doors with cable & spring helpers on the side, but with the Minnesota winter and a steep driveway, they'd like to have automatic openers.

From the picture, you can see that there is no torsion rod (nor any room to add one) so that the jack screw type opener is not an option. As the garage is under the house, I'm guessing that there are code restrictions as well as structural concerns with the cut through the drywall to notch the joists approach.

Ideas as to what kind of openers would work with these constraints would be welcome.

Thanks in advance.

 

[terabyte]

i have seen regular openers adapted to mount on the side of the wall and operate the door.

 

[porschedude996TT]

Liftmaster 3800 is what I did in my shop. They mount on the wall that the door is on and to either side of the door. You can see some pictures of the installation (Post #88) in the later pages of my build. See link below. I think this will work for them.

 

[APEowner]

There's not quite enough resolution in your photo for me to tell if you have exactly the same setup I did so this might not help but here's what I did in a similar situation.

On my doors the brackets for the top rollers (the ones that ride in the upper track) had an angel bend in them held the rollers away from the door and forced the top of the door against the top of the opening when the door was closed. I flattened the bracket so that the rollers were closer to the door which gave me just enough clearance between the door and the ceiling to mount a screw drive opener. The top of the door no longer seats itself against the opening when you close it manually but the opener pushes it there so it's not a problem.

If you'd like I can snap some pics later.

 

[bluesman2a]

Liftmaster 3800 is what I did in my shop. They mount on the wall that the door is on and to either side of the door. You can see some pictures of the installation (Post #88) in the later pages of my build. See link below. I think this will work for them.

While that was my 1st reaction to the title, unless I'm missing something in the pics, there's no torsion bar on those doors. No torsion bar means LM3800 won't work.

 

[TomH]

Liftmaster 3800 is what I did in my shop. They mount on the wall that the door is on and to either side of the door. You can see some pictures of the installation (Post #88) in the later pages of my build. See link below. I think this will work for them.

The Liftmaster 3800s require a torsion spring and the kids' garage has side springs.

 

[njfl]

It looks like there is an extra track between the two doors. What is that?

Also, are there other houses in the area that you could look at for additional ideas?

 

[TomH]

There's not quite enough resolution in your photo for me to tell if you have exactly the same setup I did so this might not help but here's what I did in a similar situation.

On my doors the brackets for the top rollers (the ones that ride in the upper track) had an angel bend in them held the rollers away from the door and forced the top of the door against the top of the opening when the door was closed. I flattened the bracket so that the rollers were closer to the door which gave me just enough clearance between the door and the ceiling to mount a screw drive opener. The top of the door no longer seats itself against the opening when you close it manually but the opener pushes it there so it's not a problem.

If you'd like I can snap some pics later.

I've asked for more detailed photos and some measurements. The key measurement (My guess) is the clearance on the top panel, as it rides in its own track and appears to hug the ceiling.

Any idea as to the minimum headspace on a screw drive lift?

I'm guessing that the solution will lift from the side (Not sure whether it's possible due to probable racking of the door.)

 

[njfl]

Another question. How much of the top panel is needed? Would it be possible to make a custom (shorter) top panel to allow mounting of a torsion spring assembly overhead?

 

[TomH]

It looks like there is an extra track between the two doors. What is that?

Also, are there other houses in the area that you could look at for additional ideas?

The extra track is for the top panel. There isn't enough headspace (i.e. lift) for it to follow the same track as the lower panels.

I'm in Cincy and they are in Minneapolis, but I'll have them ask about other similar doors

 

[whowutwut]

How high is the ceiling in the garage? From the pictures, you have 5 panels on the garage door, I'm not sure how tall each piece is.. but I just got new doors installed at my home and it 7' high consisting of 4 panels.

If you have 8' ceilings, you could probably shorten the opening and install a 7' high door and build a header across to support the torsion spring...

this would cost more than just installing an opener, but it doesn't look like an opener would work as is..

 

[TomH]

How high is the ceiling in the garage?

Fair question. I'll ask. I was guessing that it was ~7' 6" using a standard 7' door.

 

[Stuart in MN]

It looks like it's a tuckunder garage with living space above, and the driveway slants down from the street? (I've seen a lot of houses like that around Minneapolis.) I'm not sure how you'd install a conventional opener with the ceiling that low without cutting into the ceiling, which would raise all kinds of insulation and fire code problems.

 

[72chevy]

I had the same issue at my mothers house years ago. These Trolleys replace the upper rollers and cause the top panel to break over faster and allow for the openers track enough clearance.

http://www.diygaragerepair.com/Low-Headroom-Quick-Close-Fixture-p/ssc256.htm

I think I got my trolley replacement kit at a local door company. Easy fix.

 

[TomH]

I had the same issue at my mothers house years ago. These Trolleys replace the upper rollers and cause the top panel to break over faster and allow for the openers track enough clearance.

http://www.diygaragerepair.com/Low-Headroom-Quick-Close-Fixture-p/ssc256.htm

I think I got my trolley replacement kit at a local door company. Easy fix.

That may actually do the trick. If I'm looking at them correctly, I should be able to shift the top panel to the lower track and gain the headspace for a screw drive.

Time for an experiment.

Thanks.

 

[nova65ss]

The doors in the picture have what is called double low headroom track. Really only one option shorter doors and frame down the opening. You really need at least 9" of headroom to fit the openers in there.

 

[APEowner]

I think that the trolleys that 72chevy linked to combined with some creative opener installation just might work. As nova65ss pointed out a "by the book" installation requires about 9" but I was able to get a screw drive Genie to work with 2 1/2". As I indicated above I modified the upper roller mounts on mine to get the clearance but the trolleys are a slicker solution. There's a good chance that the door won't close properly without the opener but if you're willing to live with that limitation you should be good to go.

 

[TomH]

APEowner

My understanding after a lot of reading is that (some) screw drives allow flush mounting on the ceiling for low clearance, so I really want to agree with the 2.5" minimum. (That being said, I doubt that any respectable installer would stand behind it.) The good news is that the main (lower) track seems to have a large radius, minimizing the force needed to initiate the lift.

I should know more on Thursday...

...stay tuned.

 

[PIJim]

I have a similar garage door arrangement (BTW...in Minnetonka MN) at my current home and had the doors and openers shown in the photos installed (summer of 2002). This arrangement has worked flawlessly for the last 7 years.

 

[TomH]

I have a similar garage door arrangement

Thanks, but you have about 4-6" more clearance. Note that my top rail is flush against the ceiling versus your set-up.) By using the "quick close fixture" in the earlier post, I can relocate the top panel rollers to the lower track and gain a couple inches of clearance.

Assuming the screw drive housing is <= the depth of head space from the ceiling to the face of the door, I'll give it a try.

 

[35mastr]

The low headroom track would work. But you will still need to replace the doors shorter ones.

You will still need to frame in a header frror the opener to attach to.

I dont think that there is any other way around it.

I have the low headroom track set up as in the pic's. My garage had 12 foot to the roof. So framed it all in at seven foot and made an attic above for storage. I also added a pull down door.

 

[Motown 454]

Do you have the room to put a longer screw section of the opener than what is normal to locate the box on the end past where the door top will end up. Then the only room you will need is for the screw portion of the opener?

 

[nova65ss]

I have seen doors that had low clearance as these do where they mounted the front of the opener where typically the motor is, going back from there rather than on the wall above the door. They take a strut or piece of angle and run it from the opener all the way to the door. Did not work great but it worked.

 

[1320stang]

How about mounting the torsion spring at the end of the tracks and using a pulley to make the turn. You might also have to get inventive in mounting the openers perpendicular to the garage doors as well.

 

[weicm3]

from what you described, your ceiling joists go perpendicular with garage door, right? so, you're unable to install torsion bar without notching joists.

if that's the case, why can't you tear out some ceiling drywall along the center joist to accommodate a regular door opener(chain drive, belt drive, ...whatever).

to comply with code(living space above garage), you just need to put 1/2'' drywall underneath the sub-floor and then install the opener.

 

[Steevo]

I have seen an installation where they moved the whole opener assembly, track, motor, etc, back towards the back wall of the garage, so that the screw track was not above the door, then used a length (8' or so) of metal tubing (EMT) to connect the door bracket to the opener arm. This allows the door to stay as-is, against the ceiling, and the opener assembly to be bolted to the rafters/joists way back behind where the door opens against the ceiling.

 

[nova65ss]

I have seen an installation where they moved the whole opener assembly, track, motor, etc, back towards the back wall of the garage, so that the screw track was not above the door, then used a length (8' or so) of metal tubing (EMT) to connect the door bracket to the opener arm. This allows the door to stay as-is, against the ceiling, and the opener assembly to be bolted to the rafters/joists way back behind where the door opens against the ceiling.

Yep Steevo described it better than I that will definitely work.

 

[trythis]

I saw the exact setup today at an estate sale. They had a section of T bar, mounted near the top of the door that extended straight back to the back of the overhead track. They had a curved steel bar that went around the spring roller that was mounted onto the back of the track, over head. The opener's T bar was then directly behind the the spring roller and mounted on the ceiling.

 

[TomH]

Thanks for the ideas!

I had to go out of town for a couple of days, so I was out of range.

I'll check to see whether there is enough room to try the "Steevo Trick."

Merry, Merry & Happy, Happy

 

[Fiberglass Fred]

I saw where this one guy mounted the operator vertically. I'd probably work in this case too.

 

[nova65ss]

I saw where this one guy mounted the operator vertically. I'd probably work in this case too.

Normally that would work but most openers are around 10' installed length and he only has at most 7' ceilings so the door would not opwn all the way up.

 

[TomH]

Normally that would work but most openers are around 10' installed length and he only has at most 7' ceilings so the door would not opwn all the way up.

Correct-a-mundo. I thought of a side, chain-drive type setup similar to an industrial door, but there is no torsion bar/spring to distribute the lifting force across the face of the door. The concern is racking/binding the door when raising/lowering it.

 

[Fiberglass Fred]

I understand you can't put in a torsion spring, but many doors have a spring going down each rail. Those don't need any special clearance.

And yes, end result would only have the door only open 6', instead of the entire 7', but I doubt there's a cheaper way to get an operator on that door.

 

[6t7gto]

maybe this...
http://www.miracleinstrument.com/garage.html

 

[TheShrine]

This is what I did.........