Here we go again

[Kevin54]

Second contractor (fired the first one) has yet to give me a price for a garage addition. He lives 3 miles from me and builds houses. I've texted him maybe three times, I've called him two or three times, and I stopped and talked with him in person , twice. It's always........I'll be over on Friday. It doesn't matter whether it's Monday or Thursday, he'll be over on Friday.

So I called another last afternoon. He is going to be here at 4:00 today to go over things, one to two weeks for a solid price, and if I give him the job, he will break ground at the end of April, weather permitting.

This guy just finished up a pole barn, 4 houses down from me, and as cold as it was out at times, they were out hanging siding and putting up metal roofing. The garage looks great. Everyone get's their garage or house, and I can't even get a goddamm price.

Third times a charm, and I hope this work out this time

 

[torqueman2002]

It sounds like the 2nd contractor was over extended. If he can't keep an appointment before he has the work, imagine what he'd be like when the job is underway and/or he's working on wrapping up your punch list.

I would have done the same thing.

I look forward to following your build thread and wish you much success.

 

[tez929rr]

Kevin, if you are unhappy with how the guy responds to your request for a quote, maybe you should look for another contractor. Why should he be any more accessible if he takes the job?

 

[PelicanPines]

If a contractor is over-extended... why CAN'T they admit it? I have had the same issue here with several projects. Ended up doing a few by myself... a 1 week job took me all summer but hey... saved a few $$$.

My electrician never advertises and is always freakishly busy, but he lets his customers know... it will be three weeks, a month, etc. The good part with him... he gives an estimate immediately and if you say YES... he breaks out the tools and starts.

 

[Wizzard]

It sounds like the 2nd contractor was over extended. If he can't keep an appointment before he has the work, imagine what he'd be like when the job is underway and/or he's working on wrapping up your punch list.

I would have done the same thing.

This would be my concern. Get the hard final quote in writing and signed by both parties. My parents had a garage built recently by a longtime friend who is a contractor (he does do quality work) and it is amazing how many costs seem to get piled on after the fact.

Also make sure they use the brand/type materials that YOU want to use (doors, windows, etc). Many contractors will sub materials (doors, etc) and finish it themselves to increase profit. Good luck with the build.

 

[creativecars]

Kevin, You know you have to bang his wife before any estimates are given..

I feel you pain... Leaving someone hanging is not a good way to do business, but seems to be the way it is around the construction industry.

 

[tommudd]

Sounds like the contractor I got to do some work on my parents house roof, called April 20, 1014, they finally came to estimate it in June, and said be back in 2 weeks, that turned into August , September and October , never showed each time they said they would be there.
They called the other day to see when we would be ready for them to start.....
You can imagine what I told them

 

[aafadca]

I don't beg people to work for me anymore. I've learned over the years that if they're not reliable in at LEAST just coming to look and give an estimate, then I don't want them. They're honest people out here that do want to work.

 

[creativecars]

Sounds like the contractor I got to do some work on my parents house roof, called April 20, 1014, they finally came to estimate it in June, and said be back in 2 weeks, that turned into August , September and October , never showed each time they said they would be there.
They called the other day to see when we would be ready for them to start.....
You can imagine what I told them

A thousand years? I would have looked somewhere else after the first 250.

 

[NASTYZEN]

Kevin, you should get at least 3 guys to quote on it at the same time. Even better if the others know others are bidding as well. Competition makes things better and faster usually.
I was a fool and chased people for years until I got wiser...

 

[Orange65]

If they are too busy to give you a quote, they will be too busy to do the work. But also note that if you are being tough to work with, that will get around to other contractors. They talk amongst themselves too.

 

[stikman56]

Second contractor (fired the first one) has yet to give me a price for a garage addition. He lives 3 miles from me and builds houses. I've texted him maybe three times, I've called him two or three times, and I stopped and talked with him in person , twice. It's always........I'll be over on Friday. It doesn't matter whether it's Monday or Thursday, he'll be over on Friday.

So I called another last afternoon. He is going to be here at 4:00 today to go over things, one to two weeks for a solid price, and if I give him the job, he will break ground at the end of April, weather permitting.

This guy just finished up a pole barn, 4 houses down from me, and as cold as it was out at times, they were out hanging siding and putting up metal roofing. The garage looks great. Everyone get's their garage or house, and I can't even get a goddamm price.

Third times a charm, and I hope this work out this time

Seems to be the norm with some of these guys. We have had a rough time getting people to do what they said trying to get this next home built. Also, the loan officers at the first two banks we tried, were flakes and not very smart as well. Third bank, this guy is truly fantastic, did what he said, when he said,was quick as well. Lots of flakes is about all I can think at this point. Keep trying and you'll find a good one eventually, it does take some patience for sure.

 

[Kevin54]

Well hopefully I will get a call this evening or a visit with a price. If it's within reason, I tell him to stick his sign out in the yard. He said if I hire him, digging will start about the middle of April when the weather breaks, and the ground dries a little bit. I've seen a lot of the work that he does, and he just recently finished a garage just a few houses down the road from me. Even when it was super cold out, he was working on it. He does very nice work. So seeing that this is Friday the 13th, and the wife and I usually have good luck on this day, I have my fingers crossed that he will stop by with a good price.

I have to get the house garage cleaned out because momma's Olds comes home April 15th. The Hoopty will have to sit outside while work is going on, but I hope that I get good news today

BTW......he handles everything as far as the drawings, permits, and so on. Plus he has been around the county and in business since '97. When we were discussing things, as far as height restrictions, he is fairly positive that he can pull off 12' walls without a variance. So with that and scissor trusses, I will be all set for a lift.

 

[Randy in Maine]

Go at least 12' 6" to be sure.

 

[bczygan]

Made me laugh out loud.

I worked for builders and GC's, big and small.

And my job included hiring all the subs.

After a career of that, I would never hire a general or sub-contractor again!

At least if I could avoid it.

Past the issues of trust and performance and cost, I would just hate giving up control.

Every contractor has his own best interests in mind first and foremost.

If your needs and concerns align with his fine, you might just get some things done together.

There are a million ways they can make things work out for themselves. You will always be secondary.

The best of them will be too busy for you.

The rest................

But good luck.

I hope you rope in a good one that happens to have a hole in his schedule that fits you just right.

Bill

 

[JCQuick]

kevin You aren't alone, I have a friend that is trying to get a metal building put up and has contacted about 20 people so far none of them have followed thru with even as much as getting back to him.

 

[bczygan]

Remember that the recent economic hard times wiped out a lot of small contractors, and left little opportunity for new blood.

Now that building is ramping up again, qualified people are scarce.

It's counter-intuitive, but you should be even more careful who you choose.

And to get the best contractor, you need to be the best client, and that doesn't just mean the one with the biggest pot of cash.

A good way to find out the kind of contractor he is, is to ask what kind of clients he seeks. Ask about how his best and most memorable jobs went.

 

[Kevin54]

Well....it's a good thing that I haven't said anything to contractor #2 as I need to get in touch with him tomorrow and see if he has a written quote yet. His price is the one I am still waiting on, but when I told him that Contractor #1 was $37,000, he thought that was high.

Contractor #3 which he just called a few minutes ago, gave me a price of $55,000. He was telling me that just the lumber for the new addition is $18,500. I know better than that because I have priced garage packages, and for a garage a tad larger than I'm wanting, the materials were around $8,500. So I don't know where he is getting the other $10,000 in lumber at.

He is going to drop off the full written quote tomorrow sometime, so I can see a breakdown on the cost, and where the lumber is coming from. I also question the studding size. Contractor #2 told me that anything over 9' wall height requires 2x6 studs.

Contractor #3 told me that he can get by with a 12' wall, and the walls will be 2x4 studs.

Contractor #2 has built our house, and quite a few other houses in the county and has been in business as far back as the '80's, and builds decent houses.

Contractor #3 has also been building houses and garages in the county, but has been in business since '97.

I have seen what both contractors can do and what they have done. Both do top grade work. #3 may be a little more critical, or a little more of a perfectionist than #2. Contractor #2 told me in his own words that "I'm (he) is just a plain old hillbilly, but he knows his construction". And #2's work shows that he knows what he is doing. One thing I like about #2's conversation I had with him was the 2x6 wall studs over a 9' wall height verses 12' long, 2x4 studs that #3 is planning on using.

Another thing that got my attention was #2 stated that he only drives his nails with a hammer when framing instead of using a pneumatic nailer. He stated that a pneumatic nailer will not set all of the nails consistently like a hammer will and his building will be a "tighter" building than one all put together with air. He's not against using air, and depending on what he is doing, he may use pneumatic, but he prefers a framing hammer. Whether there is any factual truth about manual over air, I don't have a clue, but it does sound feasible.

So I'll make yet another call tomorrow to #2 and see if he has the prices worked up yet, and keep my fingers crossed. All I know is that $55,000 for the size, and no inside work at all, seem rather high to me for our area, and for what materials I quickly figured one evening, and against the cost of what places sell garage packages sell for.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this isn't going to be the start of a long summer with problems, like I was jacked around by the first contractor last year

 

[Krash Kadillak]

I know virtually nothing about construction, but seems to me that 2x4 studs for a 8' wall would be OK, but for a 12' wall you would need 2x6 for the extra rigidity. Additional insulation wouldn't be a bad thing, either. Whatever the additional lumber expense would be, should be worth it.

 

[Streetbu]

2x4 for a 12' wall IMO is a no go. Definitely 2x6. In general, you can double the actual price of ALL materials and get a pretty good idea of the average price for a garage. That's not perfect but usually pretty close.

 

[Kevin54]

Well....I may be down to piece-mealing the project out. The guy down the road hasn't called me back, but I am going to start getting some piece-meal prices together. I'll have to go out of town for my concrete work and get the guy that I have used for everything else. I know that he'll give me a pretty decent price, and always has in the past. Between myself, my wife, and the neighbor's son, I know I can get the walls framed. Siding......I don't want to do it, but I can manage that. then I'll have to farm out the trusses and roof work. And I can strip all of the vinyl off myself.

I hate to do it as it's going to drag things out longer, but it really looks like that is going to be the only alternative if the guy down the road doesn't call.

I did draw things up on SketchUp today. It took a little while to figure things out, and I only drew the outside of the building. I would like to draw an exploded view, but that will maybe be later. Tomorrow, I will start getting some prices together for materials. Plus, I'm fairly certain that I can get by with 12' walls without a variance. the Township guy told me that I could get by with a little taller than 15' height restriction due to the house sitting a little higher than the house. Figuring everything up, the peak comes out right at 17' when sitting on top of 12' walls. That would bring the peak of the garage right at, or still a tad less than what the house is at.

the wife has no problem staining the siding, and it can all be done in the current garage, under roof, and out of the weather. Toss some visqueen down on the floor, set up some sawhorses, and let her at it.

So anyways......here are the final plans for the garage, and 99% positive that it will stay this way. I'm not worried about the interior for the time being, not worried about electric for the time being, nor am I worried about lights. All of that will be done at a later date.

And if worse comes to worst, I may even try to pull off a GJ one or two day blitz on the garage when it comes to roof and rafters, and see if I could possible round up some Ohio members, see if they would be willing to help, and treat them all to steaks on the grille and unlimited cold ones. I'm getting to the point of almost begging

Begging is completely out of the norm for me, but goddammit, you have to experience certain things at least one time in your life. Certain things to a certain extent though

Here are the pics of what is going to happen, one way or another this year. And SketchUp is nice, but I need to learn a lot more on it. When you breeze through one program for drawings, different drawing programs throws some big rocks back at you. This took me about 7 hours to do, which is probably 7 times longer than anyone else

For the ones that don't know my frustration, the new addition is the bumpout on the side, and also the portion on the front with the garage door. Everything else is already built. Plus the vinyl gets pulled off, and cedar siding at 6" spacing gets put in place of it, then a total re-roof. Add 5 windows, and another man-door, 2x6 walls, 16x9 insulated garage door, scissor trusses w/ 4:12 pitch, 6' apron, and a 3' sidewalk added to the existing overhang. The reason that the sidewalk is where it's at is that the wife wants a large flowerbed to dress things up, plus we have a weeping pine that she will not let me move or cut down. Between the bumpout and the main existing garage, I will be putting a sliding door in between the two. Benches, rolling toolboxes, and overhead cabinets go into the bumpout.

The reason that the new overhead door is offset is so I can have a lift on the left hand side, plus I can still pull into the existing garage on the right hand side of the door

And if anyone see's anything that doesn't look quite right, please don't hold back, and let me know what it is. Tomorrow will be spent on the phone making a shitload of calls, and searching the web for some good deals.

 

[Architorture]

You can typically go up to 10' with 2x4 studs at 24" o.c. Supporting a roof/ceiling assembly under the prescriptive portion of the building code. That is limited to supporting a maximum 32' span.

2x6 studs are also limited to 10' by the prescriptive method.

In order to exceed 10' in either case you have to demonstrate the ability of the wall to carry the loads by analysis and calculations. Depending on roof loads and span a 12' tall 2x4 wall could possibly work at 16" o.c. That said if you don't want the whole place quivering when you slam the door or during a strong wind, go with 2x6 studs.

 

[Kevin54]

I don't like, nor have I ever recommended studs at 24" on center. I have always built everything on 16" centers. And if I use 2"x6" studs, I can go 12' in wall height.

Now aside from that, I have been doing some looking online at Menards and Home Depot, and using 7/16" OSB on the walls which is what I have now, and going with 1/2" OSB on the roof, which is standard around here, and actually they have even went down to 7/16" for everything....but going with 1/2" on the roof, treated bottom plate, double top plate, 6" cedar siding and not counting any doors or windows yet, I am right shy of $7000 for all of the lumber to frame everything complete.

Now that DOESN'T count foundation, concrete, or roofing. The estimate I got yesterday was $18,500 just for materials to frame it, not counting doors and windows. And that is using all 2x4 framing. I don't know what the hell that guy is smoking.

I had budgets a certain amount for the garage, and even at 3x's times the material cost, doesn't equal my budget. And if I add another $1500 in materials for shingles, $1500, for one garage door, and another $1500 for entrance door and windows, I'm still looking at $11,500. Add another $3500 for some misc. and I am at $15,000 if I did everything myself on top of a foundation and floor. Concrete is 11.2 yards and figuring $120/yd. = $1344, digging the foundation will only be around $300, concrete block around $527. Now I'm right at $18,000, that doesn't include the labor for working the concrete, and not including the sidewalk, nor the stone or gravel.

I have no clue as to how the last guy came up with $18,500 in just wood.

If I hired someone at twice materials so that it included labor, then it does come to about $37,000 which what the first contractors estimate was, but he was wanting to cut some serious corners. like leaving the apron of the existing garage where it is at, then tying the new garage floor to it, which would look like ****, and he was only counting on 10' walls, and I had to chase down all of the doors and windows. If I'm going to have to do the legwork, then I may as well source all of the materials, and just contract the whole damn thing myself. It wouldn't be the first time. I didn't want to do it, but I live in the land of lazy.

 

[NUTTSGT]

$18,500 for all the lumber does seem excessively high. I'd guess he is padding his pocket on the lumber package or jacking the amount hoping you won't want him to do the job.

Giving him the benefit of doubt, you came up at $7k for framing. He comes up at $7800, add 10% for scrap/extra and you get $8580. If he accidently puts a 1 in front, you could come close to that $18,500 figure.

On one side, it could be his number, on the other, it could be an accident but he could work it out to be "an accident" if you catch on. "oh yeah" I wonder how I got that extra 1 at the beginning. Most peole would probably really happy if they caught an error to their favor in the amount of $10k.

 

[Kevin54]

Yea, $18,500 seems real high for just the lumber, but we had spoke on the phone about it, and I mentioned that it seemed a little high and may very well be out of my budget. And when we had spoke in person, he didn't think it would be that difficult, or actually be a very high priced job for an addition. I guess his definition of high priced and mine is a little bit different.

I'm going to give my concrete guy a call tomorrow and set up an appointment for him to stop down. Plus he always works with other contractors that seem to be reasonably priced on different things.

It's aggravating though that I have lived in this town since '90, and we bought the house in '93. I try to deal locally if at all possible, all for the fact that it is a small town. But almost every time I had to have something done, it was either do it myself, go out of town, or get raped by the ones in town. It's a shame that ones don't want to work around here, or want to make a years wages all on one or two jobs.

 

[kwb]

#2 that won't use a framing nailer is an idiot with no mind to the time v. money v. quality triangle where most people want to get some reasonable balance between the three.

That or he just doesn't know how to use one and is too cheap to buy the collated nails.

 

[tk421]

OP, what part of Ohio?

 

[Kevin54]

Urbana, Ohio.

 

[buddyboy]

call or stop in to Carter Lumber

that's what your contractors are doing, calling a lumber yard and giving the specs and they put it in their computer, it estimates the lumber and draws up plans.

best thing is since they are local they will know the building codes, and answer your questions on what you need for the building dept.

they can print out an entire materials list for you down to how many pounds of nails you need.

 

[Architorture]

#2 that won't use a framing nailer is an idiot with no mind to the time v. money v. quality triangle where most people want to get some reasonable balance between the three.

That or he just doesn't know how to use one and is too cheap to buy the collated nails.

Come on we all know that a nail that has been bent over and pound flush sideways has at least ten times the fastening strength...have you ever tried to pry out such a nail...way harder than a "normally" driven nail.

 

[metalhead212121]

If a contractor is over-extended... why CAN'T they admit it?

LOL.. a contractor admitting he isn't perfect.. ESPECIALLY in NJ? Good luck with that.


http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=215285

 

[rweaver]

Kevin isn't that funny we have the same problem here in Michigan everybody ******* about the economy but you have to go out of town to get quotes and nobody will return calls and then when you see them sitting in the local bar they ***** because they don't have any work. I can say this because I've been in construction for about 34 years and have seen it all (almost) !!

 

[Kevin54]

Kevin isn't that funny we have the same problem here in Michigan everybody ******* about the economy but you have to go out of town to get quotes and nobody will return calls and then when you see them sitting in the local bar they ***** because they don't have any work. I can say this because I've been in construction for about 34 years and have seen it all (almost) !!

Well get out of the bar, get down here, and build me a garage addition. I didn't want to go out of STATE, but just may have to.

 

[xjbanker]

Contractors show up when they NEED money! I was building my garage and my neighbor would come and quote me high prices. Then when he needed beer money his prices would come back next to nothing. For example. Replacing an existing window was $200 of labor. When he needed money it was "Hey I will do that for you for $25" yet when I was willing to pay $200 he never came across the street to do it. So I did them myself until the price was dirt cheap.