here's one ..

[anthony666]

.. i knocked out over the last couple of days for a member here

https://scontent-b-iad.**.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1/1798787_10152216803535792_706153620_n.jpg

forgive the shaky cell phone pic .. it's an attached garage, about 600 square feet and a single loop in his kitchen .. there are thermal actuators on the manifold and a load sensing grundfos pump .. the heat source is an envirosense direct vent condensing hot water tank, take offs at the circ ports, through an over size heat exchanger via a bronze body pump

i'm not a big fan of running radiant off a tank, but this machine has mind boggling recovery time .. i fired up the system, the actuators did their thing and the tank clicked on pretty fast .. about 8 or 10 minutes later it was satisfied and turned off again .. 130 delivery temp, probably 60 degree return off a cold slab .. i was impressed

http://www.johnwoodwaterheaters.com/2012/EN/Residential Products/Envirosense Power Direct Vent.html

 

[jlckmj]

Anthony
Looks nice.
What is the reason for the heat exchanger?

Jim

 

[ADSR]

Nice install! What was the tank worth?

 

[anthony666]

Anthony
Looks nice.
What is the reason for the heat exchanger?

Jim

thanks jim .. the heat exchanger keeps the floor water and the domestic hot water separate .. the tank does dual duty, & there's glycol going in the system at a later date .. the glycol feeder he got was junk out of the box unfortunately

Nice install! What was the tank worth?

thanks ld .. i dunno what he paid for it, it was already in place, as was the pex in the floor .. i can't imagine they're cheap though .. if i had to guess i'd say 2 grand kinda range .. i'll talk to my supplier monday and see what the damage is

 

[Cannonball]

Nice setup Anthony.
Builder put the same water heater in my house which was surprising for a cheaper builder.
Couple of questions, by using the heat exchanger there is no chance of cross contamination into the domestic hot water?
Do you think it would be a viable option to circulate glycol approx. 50' out to my work shop (18'X24') and use the water heater to heat the glycol?
What is the approx. cost of a heat exchanger?
Still trying to figure out a reasonable way to heat my small work shop.
Thanks.

 

[anthony666]

Nice setup Anthony.
Builder put the same water heater in my house which was surprising for a cheaper builder.
Couple of questions, by using the heat exchanger there is no chance of cross contamination into the domestic hot water?
Do you think it would be a viable option to circulate glycol approx. 50' out to my work shop (18'X24') and use the water heater to heat the glycol?
What is the approx. cost of a heat exchanger?
Still trying to figure out a reasonable way to heat my small work shop.
Thanks.

you're lucky .. what a great piece of equipment .. i love the feature where you can check run time

the big challenge on your job is beating the heat loss on the 50' journey out to the shop .. trench under the frost line, line the trench with vapor barrier to keep it dry, armaflex the line set to keep the hot and cold apart and then spray foam the hell out of it before folding and taping the vapor barrier back over itself to seal it up good .. i think if that went well your water heater would be perfect for the job

that is reason to use the heat exchanger the liquids from each side of the system are separated by flat plates that let the colder fluid pick up heat from the warmer fluid without physically touching .. here's one that will work for you

http://www.pexsupply.com/Bell-Gosse...re-BPX-Brazed-Plate-Heat-Exchanger-12637000-p

don't run straight glycol .. somewhere in the 50/50 neighborhood is good

your initial buy in is gonna be a bit scary, but once you get past the sticker shock you'll never regret a properly built radiant system

 

[theoldwizard1]

that is reason to use the heat exchanger the liquids from each side of the system are separated by flat plates that let the colder fluid pick up heat from the warmer fluid without physically touching ...

Any idea what the efficiency is of heat exchanger ?

Have you ever installed a radiant heat system with a heat exchanger where the heat source is refrigerant from a heat pump ?

don't run straight glycol .. somewhere in the 50/50 neighborhood is good :

I assume you mean propylene glycol (RV anti-freeze) not ethylene glycol, correct ?

 

[theoldwizard1]

No expansion tank ?

I see a couple of taps on the return side from the floor next to the water heater. What ar they for ?

 

[anthony666]

Any idea what the efficiency is of heat exchanger ?

off the top of my head, no .. hahaha .. i can find out monday if you like .. there's also a small head loss from using a heat exchanger that needs to be taken into account .. i'll also check and see if the envirosense unit is available with an internal coil

Have you ever installed a radiant heat system with a heat exchanger where the heat source is refrigerant from a heat pump ?

you mean like a ground source water to water heat pump ?? yes, tons of them .. i don't think that's what you mean though

florida heat pump, which was bought out by bosch have a 'super deheater' option i've installed a few times .. that works by scavenging heat off the pump and refrigerant, kind of along the same lines as the condensing aspect in a condensing boiler .. i'm pretty sure that heat is used to preheat dhw, it's been a few years since i did one

I assume you mean propylene glycol (RV anti-freeze) not ethylene glycol, correct ?

yes sir, propylene glycol .. i use food grade stuff, i figure that's gotta be safe(r) in case of a spill

 

[anthony666]

No expansion tank ?

I see a couple of taps on the return side from the floor next to the water heater. What ar they for ?

the expansion tank is on pex behind the water tank .. etx 30

there are two dahl valves with garden hose thread separated by a ball valve .. i use them for initial flush/fill

i can hook up my flush cart and close the ball valve to pump in glycol/water .. or i can use a washing machine hose to a water source and dump into a drain or a 5 gallon pail via a garden hose

 

[pstnbly]

No strainers or filters tsk, tsk. Like the bronze pump though

 

[anthony666]

cheers

 

[Cannonball]

Couple of more questions Anthony.
Is that exchanger you listed for me double wall? Couldn't find it any where in the literature.
Is the reason for getting below the frost line to save on heat loss? Everything would be glycol filled so freezing is not a concern.Thought of having to trench 4' deep *****.
If I exit the back portion of the house I can get the out side run down to 30' to save on heat loss. My in floor runs of 1/2" Pex are already 225' each (two runs). Trying to think of what a pump setup would like like to circulate the 50' out to the shop then back.
Starting to like this as an option as I have 50 gallons of hot water sitting there doing nothing most of the time any way.

 

[anthony666]

Couple of more questions Anthony.
Is that exchanger you listed for me double wall? Couldn't find it any where in the literature.

from the price, i'd say no .. but it's rated for radiant & dhw, and it's code stamped, which says yes .. best bet, fire off an email to b&g to ask them and check with your local inspector what they wanna see

Is the reason for getting below the frost line to save on heat loss? Everything would be glycol filled so freezing is not a concern.Thought of having to trench 4' deep *****.

yep .. you're paying for every btu, why waste it ?? it's kinda like running the furnace with the window open .. but more important than getting it buried deep is keeping it waterproof, otherwise you're just creating an underground 30 foot long heat exchanger .. i'd also run a couple of 4 thermostat wires in the trench while i was at it

If I exit the back portion of the house I can get the out side run down to 30' to save on heat loss. My in floor runs of 1/2" Pex are already 225' each (two runs). Trying to think of what a pump setup would like like to circulate the 50' out to the shop then back.
Starting to like this as an option as I have 50 gallons of hot water sitting there doing nothing most of the time any way.

two 3/4" lines with a 2699 grundfos out to the shop, feeding into another loop that goes straight into the floor with a 1558 pump .. don't waste money buying a manifold for two loops just plumb it reverse return with a couple of pex to sweat fittings

 

[theoldwizard1]

Have you ever installed a radiant heat system with a heat exchanger where the heat source is refrigerant from a heat pump ?

you mean like a ground source water to water heat pump ?? yes, tons of them .. i don't think that's what you mean though

Trying to clarify.

Ground source water heat pump & refrigerant -> multi-zone hub -> heat exchanger. Opposite (water) side of heat exchanger to radiant floor.

With this system, you could have both radiant and hot air in a garage and multiple zones in a house as long as they were all heating or all cooling, correct ? (Disable refrigerant flow from hub to heat exchanger during cooling season.)

 

[anthony666]

Trying to clarify.

Ground source water heat pump & refrigerant -> multi-zone hub -> heat exchanger. Opposite (water) side of heat exchanger to radiant floor.

With this system, you could have both radiant and hot air in a garage and multiple zones in a house as long as they were all heating or all cooling, correct ? (Disable refrigerant flow from hub to heat exchanger during cooling season.)

yea .. sounds like you're talking about a mini split, no ??? but instead of being fluid to air heat transfer, fluid to fluid ??

 

[theoldwizard1]

yea .. sounds like you're talking about a mini split, no ??? but instead of being fluid to air heat transfer, fluid to fluid ??

Yes ! Have you installed any ?

 

[pseudorealityx]

I don't think it would work. When a heat pump is in heating mode, it's taking heat from the condenser water loop. Where would you get the heat for your radiant?

Maybe I'm confused...

 

[Sqbale]

Hey I know that place! Thanks again Anthony, if any one is looking for someone that knows his stuff I can recommend Anthony ( KL Radiant )

Thanks Mark

 

[MScott]

the big challenge on your job is beating the heat loss on the 50' journey out to the shop .. trench under the frost line, line the trench with vapor barrier to keep it dry, armaflex the line set to keep the hot and cold apart and then spray foam the hell out of it before folding and taping the vapor barrier back over itself to seal it up good .. i think if that went well your water heater would be perfect for the job
QUOTE]

Anthony, what about using the type of insulated line used with an outdoor furnace? In my system they used double 1 inch tubes enclosed in about a 4 inch foam line to carry the heated water from the furnace to the house and return. It only needed to be buried 18 inches deep (frost line is about 4 feet deep here.)

 

[anthony666]

Hey I know that place! Thanks again Anthony, if any one is looking for someone that knows his stuff I can recommend Anthony ( KL Radiant )

Thanks Mark

cheers mate

 

[anthony666]

Anthony, what about using the type of insulated line used with an outdoor furnace? In my system they used double 1 inch tubes enclosed in about a 4 inch foam line to carry the heated water from the furnace to the house and return. It only needed to be buried 18 inches deep (frost line is about 4 feet deep here.)

what did it cost ya per foot ???

 

[Cannonball]

Interested too.
Is this a 4" pipe (ABS/PVC) that was foam filled or does it come with the lines installed?
Any pics?

 

[MScott]

what did it cost ya per foot ???

Interested too.
Is this a 4" pipe (ABS/PVC) that was foam filled or does it come with the lines installed?
Any pics?

Not sure what it cost as it was part of the total quote for the furnace but I'm sure you could find out from any Central Boiler dealer. Here are some pics of it being installed: http://www.centralboiler.com/thermopex.html and of the construction: http://www.thermopex.com/

Hope that helps.

 

[tfinniii]

Here's another to peruse.
http://www.outdoor-wood-furnace-boi...e-Insulated-Pex-Pipe-Outdoor-Wood-Furnace.htm

 

[Jackfre]

Nice job, Anthony. OW1, you can get a water to water geo heat pumps. I did radiant/air handler jobs with them. oh, 1980 or so. Not sure who makes them now.

The Daikin Altherma is a unit to watch. Air to water for space heating cooling apps. I have no hands on with it but you will see Fujitsu and mitsu trending this way too.

 

[anthony666]

Nice job, Anthony. OW1, you can get a water to water geo heat pumps. I did radiant/air handler jobs with them. oh, 1980 or so. Not sure who makes them now.

The Daikin Altherma is a unit to watch. Air to water for space heating cooling apps. I have no hands on with it but you will see Fujitsu and mitsu trending this way too.

i use a lot of fhp aka bosch water to water heat pumps ..