Trey T
Well-known member
^Yup, exactly what I was gonna say but that would've been a far leap to my main point.
Hey AC Gurus! Is this Fraud?
- Thread starter mpire
- Start date
eddieK
Well-known member
On occasion people think nothing of hurling unfounded accusations when they know very little about a particular trade.
Just sayin'
On other occasions, some people are naive.
There might not be an explicit deal but the manager might get a real good deal if his AC breaks down.
If the property manager doesn't have financial incentive to minimize your cost, he may just minimize his effort. If a contractor notices that he always gets work (the manager no longer gets multiple quotes), he may not bid as aggressively as he used to. If your manager consistently picks contractors who don't look good to you, you may want to get another manager even if you need to pay a little more.
There might not be an explicit deal but the manager might get a real good deal if his AC breaks down.
If the property manager doesn't have financial incentive to minimize your cost, he may just minimize his effort. If a contractor notices that he always gets work (the manager no longer gets multiple quotes), he may not bid as aggressively as he used to. If your manager consistently picks contractors who don't look good to you, you may want to get another manager even if you need to pay a little more.
johnnyradiant
Well-known member
If you have shortcomings with getting tenants hire the property manager for that responsibility and have the tenants go through you for the maintenance issues. They usually charge a flat rate for doing that. It usually isn't cheap but it is cheaper than if they do everything else that you can already do. It takes out the suspect factor.
eddieK
Well-known member
In my experience it does not pay in the long run to use unscrupulous vendors...owners are not stupid, most believe someone is attempting to scam them, as is shown on this stream. It does "pay" better in the long term to use vendors you trust, so when a cost for a particular project seems high you know there is a reason for it (good vendors document), cutting corners and going the cheap route every time can end up costing you much more in the long run, not to mention the frustration for the tenant.
The most important factor is documentation, if you think someone is charging too much for a project, the scope of work and the reason to do some things YOU don't "think" need to be done should be explained in writing, this way when they opt out of some portions the contractor has documentation as to why this is NOT a warranty issue, you had explained why it SHOULD be done this way now and if there is a premature failure later, you had explained before the work was performed WHY it should have been done at that time.
The most important factor is documentation, if you think someone is charging too much for a project, the scope of work and the reason to do some things YOU don't "think" need to be done should be explained in writing, this way when they opt out of some portions the contractor has documentation as to why this is NOT a warranty issue, you had explained why it SHOULD be done this way now and if there is a premature failure later, you had explained before the work was performed WHY it should have been done at that time.
James-W
Well-known member
This isn't directed at anybody, it is just a statement of my thinking on this.
Going with the lowest bid (or taking the cheapest route) doesn't necessarily mean you saved money, in the long term. It may very well mean you will be spending more money in the future than if you had gone with a reputable company and got a high quality product and competent service in the first place.
Going with the lowest bid (or taking the cheapest route) doesn't necessarily mean you saved money, in the long term. It may very well mean you will be spending more money in the future than if you had gone with a reputable company and got a high quality product and competent service in the first place.
OTOH.... paying for the highest priced contractor recommended package doesn't mean you saved any $$$ in long term either.... definitely not short term. Sometimes you just gotta work with some one you trusted.... well until either party broke that trust...
Not could be from the 1970s, it IS from 1974. It runs through the concrete slab.
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Sean doesn't do installs, he is exclusively service. He has helped me out before on my mini-splits by doing the nitrogen pressure test, charge, and testing after everything was installed. He charged me his regular service call.
I also pay his company for their maintenance service where they do a checkup 3 or 4 times a year. Mostly so he can tell me if I am leaking the liquid gold R22 refrigerant. The cost of R22 is a major factor in my decision to go ahead and replace.
So here is the final decision:
I picked up a lug repair kit and installed it myself, and the damned thing fired right up. Talk about DIY. $15. BUT, the system is not blowing cold and I have pretty much made peace with replacing it.
I've got a pissed off tenant, and incompetent property manger, and no time to deal with it anymore.
Sean knew a "guy" that was just starting out who he says was "not stupid." He's young, but he is licensed so I figureded I would give him a call.
He is the only guy who actually went into the attic of the three. He saw it was a straight shot to the outside soffit from the top of the inside air handler. Cost is just about the same as Sean's company, but his quote included everything from inside to outside new. He is re-using my condensate pump, my thermostat, electrical, and my existing ducting.
The equipment is Concord instead of Goodman.
Here are the specs:
Concord 4HP14L30P-10A
Concord BCE3M30C00NA4X-2
ECP25-S-P Heat Strips
3/4 inch copper 50 feet
3/8 inch copper 50 feet
Preflex 06 (I don't know what this is.)
36x36 concrete pad
New control wire
New metal line-set cover for outside x 18 feet
This doesn't include a new condensate drain run, but he said that if I run new PVC and I am not in his way, he will cover it with the line-set cover for me as long as I don't slow him down. Currently the condensate pump dumps the water into the washing machine drain.
He told me that new copper was only $200.
He also said I would probably need a new outside power disconnect, (Currently it looks like an outside light switch) a new whip, and it wouldn't hurt to run new power wire since the current wire is not view-able.
I could have all that run since the breaker box was next to the inside air handler. He also said that wasn't included in the quote and he wasn't going to do it but I could call an electrician.
The breaker box has two breakers for AC, one 50 amp and one 20 amp. I am not sure which goes to the air handler/compressor. I have to figure that out. I hope 50 amp is enough to run this system. Maybe I'll need a new 25 amp breaker, I'm not sure yet. Its going to cost me $75 for the electrician to come out and give me his opinion, but that will help me sleep better.
The current system is a 2 ton straight cool AC with a heater box that does all the heating. The new system is a 2.5 ton Heat Pump. The condo is 925 square feet, but there is a whole wall of windows that really heats up the place in the summer if they aren't covered.
Paid half up front, will pay remainder when its done.
Work starts Sunday at 7 am. Cross your fingers!
I picked up a lug repair kit and installed it myself, and the damned thing fired right up. Talk about DIY. $15. BUT, the system is not blowing cold and I have pretty much made peace with replacing it.
I've got a pissed off tenant, and incompetent property manger, and no time to deal with it anymore.
Sean knew a "guy" that was just starting out who he says was "not stupid." He's young, but he is licensed so I figureded I would give him a call.
He is the only guy who actually went into the attic of the three. He saw it was a straight shot to the outside soffit from the top of the inside air handler. Cost is just about the same as Sean's company, but his quote included everything from inside to outside new. He is re-using my condensate pump, my thermostat, electrical, and my existing ducting.
The equipment is Concord instead of Goodman.
Here are the specs:
Concord 4HP14L30P-10A
Concord BCE3M30C00NA4X-2
ECP25-S-P Heat Strips
3/4 inch copper 50 feet
3/8 inch copper 50 feet
Preflex 06 (I don't know what this is.)
36x36 concrete pad
New control wire
New metal line-set cover for outside x 18 feet
This doesn't include a new condensate drain run, but he said that if I run new PVC and I am not in his way, he will cover it with the line-set cover for me as long as I don't slow him down. Currently the condensate pump dumps the water into the washing machine drain.
He told me that new copper was only $200.
He also said I would probably need a new outside power disconnect, (Currently it looks like an outside light switch) a new whip, and it wouldn't hurt to run new power wire since the current wire is not view-able.
I could have all that run since the breaker box was next to the inside air handler. He also said that wasn't included in the quote and he wasn't going to do it but I could call an electrician.
The breaker box has two breakers for AC, one 50 amp and one 20 amp. I am not sure which goes to the air handler/compressor. I have to figure that out. I hope 50 amp is enough to run this system. Maybe I'll need a new 25 amp breaker, I'm not sure yet. Its going to cost me $75 for the electrician to come out and give me his opinion, but that will help me sleep better.
The current system is a 2 ton straight cool AC with a heater box that does all the heating. The new system is a 2.5 ton Heat Pump. The condo is 925 square feet, but there is a whole wall of windows that really heats up the place in the summer if they aren't covered.
Paid half up front, will pay remainder when its done.
Work starts Sunday at 7 am. Cross your fingers!
Brian_WK
Well-known member
We demand installed pictures so we can critique. 
Brian
Brian
eddieK
Well-known member
If the original indoor unit was straight heat (resistant heat strips) that is what the 50 am breaker is for.
The new outdoor unit may have a minimum circuit ampacity of 20 amps, but I would expect at least 25, maybe 30 minimum.
Concord is a Lennox / Allied product. Bottom of their product line . (tinny and loud after a few years operation). I think preflex is pre wired flexible conduit.
I would strongly recommend a new weather tight disconnect and upgrade the wire outside, In 74 there was not a requirement to run a ground wire, the conduit was the ground.
If the heat strips are 25KW...That is some serious electric heat. Too many people in the trade do not trust heat pump heat. I find that amusing because when the unit is charged correctly and when minimal strips are control wired correctly for the defrost mode ONLY the consumer saves a lot of money long run and the outlet temp at the registers is 95+
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Trey T
Well-known member
Water line and refrigerant lines are different and the chemistry behaves differently. I wouldn't compare the to each other.
Unless there's indication of corrosion resulting from low (or high) pH of the previous refrigerant, I wouldn't replace it. Flush the lineset to remove the oil residual and neutralize the pH. Then braze in new system.
Unless there's indication of corrosion resulting from low (or high) pH of the previous refrigerant, I wouldn't replace it. Flush the lineset to remove the oil residual and neutralize the pH. Then braze in new system.
Maybe, but I hope not. There is an entire wall of windows facing the sun and it does get really hot in August.
I'm hoping the extra half ton will let them keep the blinds open during the hottest months.
Well, the system is in. Had a leak during the nitrogen pressure test but he fixed that pretty quick. 55 feet of copper line-set with a street elbow on the inside unit. Everything else is very slow gradual bends in the line-set. Only brazed joints are at the unit and the air handler.
Cold line is wrapped in insulation. Whole mess is tied together with wraps of electrical tape along the line. The line is supported in several places with loose fitting screw down zip ties. He seemed especially concerned with the 90 degree turns down to make sure there was no weight pulling on the bends. He said too much weight could make the line-set crimp over time. So it pops up in the attic with about a 3-4 foot radius on the 90 degree attic bends.
Its blowing cold. Says I need a water trap on the pan drain line. It comes out of the pan and goes straight down, then a 90 and another 90 and into the pump. The pump is only 2 feet away. Can the system **** the water back up into the air handler?
That's about it. I am going to wire a condensate drain cutout to the pump just in case. I'm not exactly sure how to do that yet but I think you just wire up the leads into the proper wire when I figure that out.
Also, that sump pump water is nasty, I need to do something about that. It keeps a few inches in the sump until it kicks on, so I am going to look into getting some of those purifier tablets.
Cold line is wrapped in insulation. Whole mess is tied together with wraps of electrical tape along the line. The line is supported in several places with loose fitting screw down zip ties. He seemed especially concerned with the 90 degree turns down to make sure there was no weight pulling on the bends. He said too much weight could make the line-set crimp over time. So it pops up in the attic with about a 3-4 foot radius on the 90 degree attic bends.
Its blowing cold. Says I need a water trap on the pan drain line. It comes out of the pan and goes straight down, then a 90 and another 90 and into the pump. The pump is only 2 feet away. Can the system **** the water back up into the air handler?
That's about it. I am going to wire a condensate drain cutout to the pump just in case. I'm not exactly sure how to do that yet but I think you just wire up the leads into the proper wire when I figure that out.
Also, that sump pump water is nasty, I need to do something about that. It keeps a few inches in the sump until it kicks on, so I am going to look into getting some of those purifier tablets.
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Brian_WK
Well-known member
Brian
eddieK
Well-known member
A new pump that comes with a low voltage cut off switch is pretty darn cheap. You break either the Y circuit or the R circuit.
Quick correction:
I thought it was one straight run of copper, but its got a **** joint about 6 feet off the ground right before it gets to the compressor. Its covered in insulation but its a clean enough solder job. Plus it should be easy enough to test for refrigerant leaks if I have any in a few years because its right by the outside unit.
Apparently you can't get longer than a 50 foot line-set around here. So I got two coils of 45 feet of new copper that I am going to toss in the attic. (3/4 and 3/8 line set)
I am searching online for something longer. Might as well start planning on replacing the AC at the other condo.
I thought it was one straight run of copper, but its got a **** joint about 6 feet off the ground right before it gets to the compressor. Its covered in insulation but its a clean enough solder job. Plus it should be easy enough to test for refrigerant leaks if I have any in a few years because its right by the outside unit.
Apparently you can't get longer than a 50 foot line-set around here. So I got two coils of 45 feet of new copper that I am going to toss in the attic. (3/4 and 3/8 line set)
I am searching online for something longer. Might as well start planning on replacing the AC at the other condo.
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eddieK
Well-known member
You can buy them shorter and braze them...
Trey T
Well-known member
It's common to have **** joints near the machines. However, if anybody using couplers for residential install is quite behind on installation methods, very in efficient.
Your contractor supply house can order 50ft+ of lineset but you have to wait. This is one indication to determine if you got a good tech or not, if he's organized and prepared a head of schedule.
Well, he is new, and I knew that. However, he is the only one that would run me new copper of the three. He also did a nitrogen pressure test, and then spent a couple hours making sure the charge was correct and everything was running after the system was vacuumed down.
He could have been a little more organized, but he was over a grand cheaper than his competitors and I think the quality of the work is on par with the bigger more expensive guys.
I called the local supply houses, they only have 50' or 35' of copper. Home Depot sells shorter lengths of 3/8" but they don't sell anything larger than 1/2". I'll call back about custom ordering longer copper, but I haven't seen anything close to a reasonably priced 3/4" copper over 50'.
Brian_WK
Well-known member
You're a masochist if you like running 100' Line Sets in anything bigger than 5/8 trying to make a bend or 2 with a bender in the middle of the lineset is just begging for a kink. We would not run anything more than a 50ft then swage and braze the line sets together while nitrogen purging to prevent scale.
Brian
Brian
To be fair, I only need about 55 feet to do it again. There are only 2 bends and they were made pretty gradual so they are not even as tight as the coil was in the box it came in. A little more line would allow a straight connection.
