HF going after pro-tools now with ICON line.
- Thread starter SilverBulletZ06
- Start date
If the ball joint press they have on the flyer is any representation of the quality of the icon line I’ll pass. I love hearing everyone talk about how China is capable of building tools just as good or better than some of the big US companies. Well if that is the case why don’t they do it. Oh yeah because they depend on our disposable society to keep their economy going. As long as Americans are willing to save a dollar today just to replace the item in a year we will continue to receive disposable junk from China.
^ china don't send the junk, it more a case of greedy american business men wanting compete easy and have great margins to play with thus requesting the junk at specific price points .
A wrench and a socket incredibly easy to make to any quality level in china or any other country . All the development been done and design concepts plenty for the taking and it basic alloy and treatments compared to machinary and electronics manufacture .
A wrench and a socket incredibly easy to make to any quality level in china or any other country . All the development been done and design concepts plenty for the taking and it basic alloy and treatments compared to machinary and electronics manufacture .
Last edited:
Sloper0204
Well-known member
Alloy isn't impossible to reverse engineer, just need to find a lab that can do optical and atomic spectroscopy along with a few other destructive tests to determine exact percentages of the different elements present in the alloy.
Heat treat is a little more difficult, but pull hardness tests, Charpy V-Notch, tensiles, etc. to determine the physical characteristics and start working up a heat cycle that will provide similar characteristics. Sure, it won't be exact down to the single digit degree of what you are trying to replicate, but plus or minus 10% on temperature won't mean **** when you are up in the normalizing range. The hard part to determine would be the quench cycle.
Aaaand I must really be bored at work right now. Disregard this post and go back to HF bashing
I have been to several different countries and I can say I have never seen top tier Chinese tools. I don’t think it’s just American greed. if Sockets and wrenches are so easy to make then why are there so many ****** ones on the market.
I don’t have a problem with HF tools they are what they are. To me they are considered disposable expendable. If I need to modify a wrench to do one job one time I’m going to go by a HF wrench and weld and cut as needed. I see the icon line simply taking the place of the Pittsburg pro line.
AceofSpad3s
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2014
- Messages
- 1,808
Where is the market? They could technically probably produce top tier tools, but people buying high end tools are snobs about COO, so who is going to spend industrial prices on chinese tools? Lot of effort for a market that doesn't exist, I doubt the chinese are desperate for snap on either, lot more practical just to use the stuff you already export for pennies, plus when you are working with the average chinese quality nuts and bolts, I doubt how hard the steel in the wrench matters too much
.Negen
Well-known member
I do not know why some people who buy tools always look for the cheapest tools possible. I buy deals but not the highest priced tools. For example my parents paid a guy 1200$ in labor to install a back splash. I told them I would do it. I have experience and those things are easy. I explained that 1200$ can buy a lot of nice tools. But do to timing and what not they paid the guy. I do believe that some of the China tools are nicer than some American tools. The new sk lp-90 ratchets are a big waste of money. Nothing special there the handles feel like the older 72 teeth harbor freight ratchets. The 1/2 is the best and has the lowest back drag similar to a proto big dawg which are the lightest I used besides koken. Milwaukee , dewalt , channel lock. Are all making hand tools in Asia wrenches are looking top notch from Milwaukee but priced close to Wright grips. But my guess is average Joe working class guy doesn't know where to buy Wright grips. Milwaukee tools are trusted and look nice. Dewalt has full socket sets at Costco that they cannot keep in stock people are buying them I counted ten in people's basket last time I was at Costco.
Point is tool availability is almost more important than price. When harbor freight is on every street corner peddling there stuff people will buy. Already here at gj people praise the series 2 tool boxes even though rs2 boxes can be had for nearly the same price. When harbor freight came out there pro line that was also recommended. Their impact sockets being half as thick as proto impacts can be a benefit in some cases. Now that all the tool box companies are belly up with the few exceptions. If I need a box today three are box stores or harbor freight. Channel lock boxes are nice looking but trash for the prices equal to mid nineties stack on.
If fastenal or grainger or Tacoma screw sold sk or proto at tool Topia prices Asian tools would look less appealing. I write off all my tool costs when I itemize my taxes and that helps me justify paying a bit more for tools. Now that the limit has been raised it will no longer be a benefit to itemize. Good thing the bulk of needed tools has been purchased already. The needs spot on my list is now shorter than my wants spot.
My dad has some cheap Asian tools from the 70's that he still uses. Mind you he touches them maybe once every two years. I use my tools more often than an average Joe less often than a weekend racer. I am young enough that if I do not die abnormally my tools will last til I die.
P.s
Can you guys tell the Asians that just because a drive on a ratchet changes the size of my hand does not.? Same goes for screw drivers. (Facom gets it)
Sent from my G8141 using The Garage Journal mobile app
Point is tool availability is almost more important than price. When harbor freight is on every street corner peddling there stuff people will buy. Already here at gj people praise the series 2 tool boxes even though rs2 boxes can be had for nearly the same price. When harbor freight came out there pro line that was also recommended. Their impact sockets being half as thick as proto impacts can be a benefit in some cases. Now that all the tool box companies are belly up with the few exceptions. If I need a box today three are box stores or harbor freight. Channel lock boxes are nice looking but trash for the prices equal to mid nineties stack on.
If fastenal or grainger or Tacoma screw sold sk or proto at tool Topia prices Asian tools would look less appealing. I write off all my tool costs when I itemize my taxes and that helps me justify paying a bit more for tools. Now that the limit has been raised it will no longer be a benefit to itemize. Good thing the bulk of needed tools has been purchased already. The needs spot on my list is now shorter than my wants spot.
My dad has some cheap Asian tools from the 70's that he still uses. Mind you he touches them maybe once every two years. I use my tools more often than an average Joe less often than a weekend racer. I am young enough that if I do not die abnormally my tools will last til I die.
P.s
Can you guys tell the Asians that just because a drive on a ratchet changes the size of my hand does not.? Same goes for screw drivers. (Facom gets it)
Sent from my G8141 using The Garage Journal mobile app
VinceG
Well-known member
These are the size of the smaller KRL and Classic series box. Who pays list for a Snap-on? it wouldn't cost 18k off the truck but it is still expensive. They will sell some for sure. They should have made a hutch for their General series they would sell a ton of those. The main issue is the tool trucks offer credit and Snap-on has a lifetime warranty on the box to the original purchaser. Also the trucks offer custom drawer set ups and a ton of colors. I personally hate the 2 inch drawers that is why my Snap-On has a different drawer set up.
Partsguy57
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2016
- Messages
- 456
Baloney.... the market dictates what the manufacture brings to market.. people want cheap hence they sell cheap. Competition always brings margins down so you are in a dream world if you think there is more money in selling cheap.. Cheap is sold because that is what the market wants. There is more money in selling a premium product but unless you are business many do not know or understand this.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Snap-on are a tool manufacturer, they don't produce steel. They'll be buying it in from a suitable supplier, any person could buy the exact same steel in theory, both over in the US or abroad.
Steel i'm sure is made to certain grades, therefore i doubt its some super-secret snap-on only steel, we just need to know what grade it is.
Its not about the "cheapest" - buy cheap buy twice, its about whats good value. 'Well-priced' and 'cheap' are very different terms.
Steel i'm sure is made to certain grades, therefore i doubt its some super-secret snap-on only steel, we just need to know what grade it is.
Its not about the "cheapest" - buy cheap buy twice, its about whats good value. 'Well-priced' and 'cheap' are very different terms.
Partsguy57
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2016
- Messages
- 456
Well most metal guys will disagree there is a difference in steel even when both are claimed to be quality... take motorsports for instance China performance cranks are fine..... until a certain horse power is reached.... then it's time for quality and that's not chicom I can assure you.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Partsguy57
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2016
- Messages
- 456
Funny in business there is no such thing as easy money.. if there is competition comes running and margins go away quickly.. if snap on and the like are so overpriced and margins are so good why are not others competing at a bit lower price and taking market share away ? Hmmm? Business is greedy as we all know ( stated in a previous post) .... they can be making huge margins like snap on is... right???
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Negen
Well-known member
America could produce products equal in price to China but profit margin would be much lower since people in America get paid 15-30$/ hour plus benefits whereas people in China get paid that in a week.
Sent from my G8141 using The Garage Journal mobile app
Partsguy57
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2016
- Messages
- 456
No..they would be out of business....that's why business moves overseas or goes out of business... not enough profit margin here.. do you think it's simple doing business overseas? If they could keep a good margin here they stay.. period. The market sets the price (you and me) and if that price is high enough to create a good margin business stays.. problem is america is in love with cheap. ( self evident here on this forum with some)
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Snapon relies on it's decades of pedigree, brand loyalty and on site service .
You can't just make a quality product and compete instantly higher end of market by slightly cheaper pricing .
You already got western and taiwan tools equal or better than snapon at 3rd of price but those who only want buy snapon not buying anything else already and simply not interested . Outside the US other brands do compete well in the high quality tool business .
Partsguy57
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2016
- Messages
- 456
Yep you make my point.... there is not room to radically lower prices and maintain a good margin if it were so companys would be after that lucrative market. ( as some think that is what the premium tool market is ripping off the consumer)As I said there is no!! Such thing as easy money. Markets see to this and anyone in business understands this. Where there is big margins being made capitalism is not fully in play or not in play at all for many reasons one of the biggest being government involvement. If you want to argue Taiwan tools are as high as quality as snap on why is this? Is snap on ripping the consumer off and making huge margins? ( Taiwan quality tools are 2/3 less according to you) or are there others reasons to explain this?
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Last edited:
Negen
Well-known member
Look at this sale that sk just did 30% off site wide with code. But prices are equal to what hje's every day prices is but shipping rates are better from sk. This means that even 30% off there is plenty of profits to be made. I suspect that if their everyday price was 30% sales would pick up quite a bit from everyday users. The problem is that everyday users have more time to nit pick and complain. Keeping prices up keeps out the nit picker people shopping in Taiwan/China. Companies like proto and sk and snapon don't want to waste time dealing with people complaining about detentes in wrong place or broaching done wrong.
Proto htc ratchets are about the highest price on the market. Nothing special except the handles actually fit a persons hand proper. Mine have a tendency to reverse once in a while. Sk fixed that issue with detentes but their handles only fit in children's hands. Snapon hard handles have been a winner since I can remember.
one big problem is that all these brands made in Asia be it by harbor freight , cornwell, Mac, gear wrench , Milwaukee, channellock , dewalt , craftsman ect... the OEM is almost always going to be the same. The companies leaving American soil are not buying land and building factories in Asia they are just contracting the tools. China knows American patent law better than American patent lawyers. (Harbor freight floor Jack's anyone?)
Stanley's only competes with it self. Where as ideal has more to loose if these harbor freight tools take off. Apex had a good product but they lost it when they killed Armstrong. The Maxx 88 is still a good tool. Snapon will continue to be strong as long as vehicles need to be worked on. Hilti and snapon are the only two tool companies I know of that will warranty a tool within and hour of calling them sure there are exceptions but most will not drive to your work on demand. Napa used to but not sure if they still do or not.
If harbor freight had their own factories and their own r&d I am sure they would get more respect. I wonder how much money is saved by not having to innovative or manufacturer their tools or tooling equipment.
Sent from my G8141 using The Garage Journal mobile app
Proto htc ratchets are about the highest price on the market. Nothing special except the handles actually fit a persons hand proper. Mine have a tendency to reverse once in a while. Sk fixed that issue with detentes but their handles only fit in children's hands. Snapon hard handles have been a winner since I can remember.
one big problem is that all these brands made in Asia be it by harbor freight , cornwell, Mac, gear wrench , Milwaukee, channellock , dewalt , craftsman ect... the OEM is almost always going to be the same. The companies leaving American soil are not buying land and building factories in Asia they are just contracting the tools. China knows American patent law better than American patent lawyers. (Harbor freight floor Jack's anyone?)
Stanley's only competes with it self. Where as ideal has more to loose if these harbor freight tools take off. Apex had a good product but they lost it when they killed Armstrong. The Maxx 88 is still a good tool. Snapon will continue to be strong as long as vehicles need to be worked on. Hilti and snapon are the only two tool companies I know of that will warranty a tool within and hour of calling them sure there are exceptions but most will not drive to your work on demand. Napa used to but not sure if they still do or not.
If harbor freight had their own factories and their own r&d I am sure they would get more respect. I wonder how much money is saved by not having to innovative or manufacturer their tools or tooling equipment.
Sent from my G8141 using The Garage Journal mobile app
Partsguy57
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2016
- Messages
- 456
Well I owned a napa store and full machine shop for many years.. ( I also sold napa tools) what do you think I shot for for a daily average profit wise? Percentage of mark up please?
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Dumber than lumber
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2015
- Messages
- 1,903
100%?
You don't need to build a factory to innovate. Good examples are Tekton and Motivix Tools.
Meanwhile, all the big U.S. tool makers are still using the decades old socket design...
Negen
Well-known member
I would think 15-25% daily would be good. When I had Napa. Brick and mortar shops are brutal. Not really sure what the markup would be. But even graingr sells sk for less than sk sells for. At least last time I bought stuff there. Channel lock USA pliers is one example I can think of that prices are the same at nearly all stores online or not. Also most people I know have at least one pair of channel locks. Mainly due to I just ordered 1100 pairs for my companies employees no discount or bulk prices same price. I am not sure why sk sells tools 30% above everyone else. I would think that if a company can buy a tool ship that tool and then sell that tool it would cost more for the retailer than the manufacturer.
Sent from my G8141 using The Garage Journal mobile app
Negen
Well-known member
Never heard of motivix but what has tekton innovated? Tools I have from them seem no different than any other except their goofy USA screw drivers that are impossible to grip.
Sent from my G8141 using The Garage Journal mobile app
Partsguy57
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2016
- Messages
- 456
Lol I could only dream.. 35 is the goal the average closer to 30.. ask any owner they will confirm this... sk Marking down 30% will put that close to cost... napa tools margins were about 20 to 25%(when I sold) of course there was a middle man the warehouse but their margins are far less then me the end sale as they sell volume vs the store individual sales...( sk will have a bit more wiggle room if selling direct vs using a jobber) people are clueless about margins in most businesses and how competition always!!!! Brings margins inline with what the market will pay and what business needs to survive and make a profit. Margins are far less then most people think in most business.. the big discount some think exist in the auto parts game... wrong.. we owners know how to play the game and the discount is what you think you are getting does not exist..cheers ( I sold my store in 2002 and I would suspect margins (I actually know) are lower now... hence the move to multiple store ownership for buying power.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Last edited:
German, european, japan and even some taiwan quality tools are 3rd the price and many of the tool lines equal or better than snapon without doubt, snapons price is not just based on tool quality, brand recognition allows higher pricing, is it a rip off ! is iphone a ripoff ! is 200dollar designer jeans a rip off ! all depends on the buyer and the marketing ...
As for market dictate what manufacturers bring to market that baloney. Half of what comes to market nobody wants and cetainly didn't dictate ...
Not many have price ranges like snapon or the reduction flexibility, outside the usa the tool list price and potential fluctuation of top class tools simply doesn't exist to this extreme because they not inflating the rp to start with .
Last edited:
Negen
Well-known member
No you missed my point. Sk marking them down 30% puts the tools at everyday street price that every store besides overpriced graingr sells at. No way all those stores selling sk tools are doing so for free. Vendors are restricted to tell the public their costs. I cannot believe that hje sells tools for free.
Sent from my G8141 using The Garage Journal mobile app
Partsguy57
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2016
- Messages
- 456
Protecting their dealers... I would not buy from warehouses that sell direct to the public... good for them.. the parts industry was destroyed when the three step went away it killed the mom and pop store. My younger brother and I say this coming and got out. He was 18 and me 19, we sold at me being 35. We had been building apts and other things while in the parts business then made the jump to mini storage, commercial buildings, heavy equipment, logging, fire suppression and support in the west and property development. We have done very well and I have very strong opinions based on personal experience at age 52 and the crowd I hand with. Birds of feather flock together and all we talk is business...
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Weather you like them or not is the point. Innovation. I can't stand S-o hard handles...
Tekton has their ratcheting flex 6pt wrenches. They're redesigning their sockets too. Just released a new line of 90t ratchets...
Point is, they don't own any factories yet are still bringing new products to market.
Negen
Well-known member
You still missed my point but it's cool. Trying to explain my self is just making me sound like an as. But you missed my point. If American tools could sell tools at 100% above cost then no one would look to Asia as even the lowest paid people could afford them. USA craftsman is a prime example of someone who picked bulk sales over high price. The few remaining USA tool companies rely on industrial and government sales rather than average workers or self employed people. IF tool companies sold tools at retail things could change. I fail to see why a company would sell to the public for more than retail. When I had an account at Napa I got 20% off anything I bought. Mind you I didn't even spend much 2-3000$ a month in parts/oil/filter/tools. This was late 90's before overnight global shipping was affordable.
The tool market is saturated the only tool company that I know of that sells to the public at retail prices is tekton. Mind you in my mind retail should be 15-35% above cost depending on cost.
Sent from my G8141 using The Garage Journal mobile app
The tool market is saturated the only tool company that I know of that sells to the public at retail prices is tekton. Mind you in my mind retail should be 15-35% above cost depending on cost.
Sent from my G8141 using The Garage Journal mobile app
Partsguy57
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2016
- Messages
- 456
Lol yea and Wally world puts a gun to your head , h.f a noose around your neck, and the snap on dealer threatens to beat you with a crescent wrench to buy.. correct? Clueless the market always decides what will sell not the manufacturer. Again if they are ripping people off where is the competion coming for the easy market and high margins in the premium tool market?
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Partsguy57
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2016
- Messages
- 456
No you didn't.(napa) You got 20% off list price and no store sells close to anyone at list price.. there is not enough margin to give you 20% off the daily margin and stay in business period. Ask any auto partsowner they will confirm. On the sk thing I'm confused also by what you want to know.. they sell higher to protect the dealer, if the compete with the dealer the dealer will leave and they lose their "shelf " space to the public. I did the same thing. I did not buy from a warehouses selling direct to the public.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Negen
Well-known member
Is it tekton or their oem's that are innovating? How can we research that? In the past most Asian companies only change designs so they can avoid lawsuits. Or if their current design is out dated. With every Asian company making similar 90 tooth ratchets who is the innovator? With pictures side by side I cannot tell a difference between tekton and kobalt 90 tooth ratchets. I wonder how many of these parts will be swappable between different manufacturers. The current market is pretty full most products being regional. I suspect these new harbor freights tools will be no different than any of the other higher end Asian tools. Gear wrench 120xp and steelman are two ratchets I have yet seen rebranded or cloned. When all those Asian companies moved to 72 teeth cloning the older snap on or who ever it seemed all were made by the same manufacturer with only handles being different. It makes me wonder where the higher end Asian tools are made like toptul and tang seems easier to copy Asian companies than American.
Sent from my G8141 using The Garage Journal mobile app
Negen
Well-known member
What I meant with the 20% off thing is 20% off what the item was sold for. If that is 100 or 500% above cost it was still cheaper then going to shucks or any other parts dealer. When we raced in exchange for the Napa stickers on our car we would get 2000$ worth of at cost parts that had to go in our car only and core was required.
What I mean is this old way of thinking they need shelf space at small one off companies is insane. It is odd to that you would drop a vendor because they sold at the same price you did even if the price you sell at is making money in your pocket. Some people need tools today not next week and that is why brick and mortar tool shops can stay open. If I can over night freight things across the USA tool companies can too. Even fastenal doesn't stock most the proto stuff I order from them but at lest they match prices. What's the point of a company selling products if they only drop ship them to me. I do not know of any retailer that sells tekton except online stores. Advanced auto is the only brick and mortar that I know of that sells gear wrench. IF companies like sk only want one or two brick and mortar shops selling their stuff they are only loosing money. Even fastenal or Tacoma screw do not like dealing with the average Joe. I do not know the future of kobalt but harbor freight seems to just be following the trends their OEMs may be wanting to retire some of their older tooling equipment to fill the needs of off the other tool brands they make things for.
It's much easier to grind a ratchet handle or add color to sockets than it is to make each of the hundreds of global brands new tools. I cannot believe when all these Asian brands use the same factories that all their tools are drastically different.
Sent from my G8141 using The Garage Journal mobile app
Perhaps its not from China,
However out of the 10 largest steel produces worldwide;
1 is based in Luxembourg
2 are based in Japan
4 are based in China
1 is Indian
2 are Korean
Pretty much every bit of steel around you will of came from those companies i'm willing to bet, that includes steel for tools.
Considering the size of those companies making steel of good quality will be extremely easy for them, if the buyer from the tool manufacturer specs that steel is another matter.
If you were to go to a large Chinese or Taiwan etc.. tool manufacturer, and ask them to make a spanner to the same quality as snap-on then they would be able to, easily, fact.
But that would cost more, impacting profit margins for the majority of companies.
Therefore only a few decent companies ask for it, Toptul, Facom, Mac, Matco, Gearwrench, Tekton etc...
All sell excellent quality tools, made abroad, because they don't cheap out and just spec a tool "that'll do".
Even snap-on don't make everything in house.
Not sure what all the fuss is about, since they are basically doing the same thing, most other business on planet earth does - offer a premium or "professional" products (at higher prices, of course )to complement their lower priced offerings.
This will appeal to the true professional and those who want to simply feel like a professional, feeling like a less expensive stuff is no longer adequate.
Besides HF have been greatly enhancing their products (as well as prices) for years now, so why not take "pro" to a new level and price structure?
When a customer walks in the door, the goal of any business, is to get them to spend as much as they can.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This will appeal to the true professional and those who want to simply feel like a professional, feeling like a less expensive stuff is no longer adequate.
Besides HF have been greatly enhancing their products (as well as prices) for years now, so why not take "pro" to a new level and price structure?
When a customer walks in the door, the goal of any business, is to get them to spend as much as they can.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited:
Marketing and product/brand perception my friend, that dictates hell of a lot on what sells and what doesn't . In the US it hard to compete against snapon brand image/perception, look more worldwide and you see the competition and real world pricing .
Partsguy57
Banned
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2016
- Messages
- 456
Hmmm again is a gun put to your head? My friend let me explain very carefully you choose what you buy. Many things may influence what you buy, but I can assure you, you choose what you buy. Now of course i have not been on your snap on dealers truck... maybe he does threaten to beat ones costumers with a crescent wrench in order to buy.... mine and every store I have ever been to...not so much so.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
You would do well to buy and read these books:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0374533555/?tag=atomicindus08-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1592407366/?tag=atomicindus08-20
freudianfloyd
Well-known member
What we need is an OEM tool truck that sells everything listed in the Tool Truck Equivalent thread. They would put all the others out of business.