HF To The Rescue
- Thread starter zendriver
- Start date
If you say so.
I see a lot of boomer comments like this and it is usually from the old men that like to sit around the local diner table in a group drinking their morning coffee and wailing about the days of old and how evil Walmart or in your case Harbor Freight is the cause of all ills.
The virtue signaling is great until you run into the same boomers in Walmart because they are not going to pay full price for their Depends diapers elsewhere or in Harbor Freight clutching their freebie coupons like they won the lottery.
Yup. Funny how all that works...
Tools, jeans, shoes/boots, furniture, textiles etc. too. Far more jobs have been lost to those kinds of things (and far more) than tools. It's just a convenient hill to stand on and shout at the rain.
Exactly. I'm guessing the people who scream the loudest have lots of non-MiUSA stuff in their house and make lots of excuses for it.
I have a friend who used to own a small-ish factory (I'm going to skip specifics as I'm not sure he'd appreciate the detailed story being out there - not really important to the point anyway). He did very well for a long time. Walmart apparently brought him in for a meeting and asked him to sell his products through them at what would have been a loss. He told them what he needed, and their response was (in so many words) "Sell it to us at our price or we'll outsource it to China and put you out of business." He told them where to stick it, and they did exactly what they said they'd do. He shifted to a more-specialized set of products and bought himself and his workers a few more years, but ultimately he had to close it all down and lay everybody off. He's fine because he made a lot of money over the years and he was smart with it, but the last time I saw him he was still deeply sad about the people he'd had to let go, some of whom had worked for him for decades and were nearly family.
Walmart casts a far wider, deeper and more devastating path through manufacturing and small businesses in this country - ask any small town guy what happens to all the small/local retailers, grocery stores, drug stores, etc. when the Walmart opened in their town. If you want to be mad at a company, it's definitely not Harbor Freight. If you shop at Walmart and criticize HF, you're a hypocrite.
This reminds me of an old joke..
Does anyone know what fat girls and mopeds have in common?
They're both fun to ride, til your friends see you.
Never rode a moped in my life,,,
It isn't necessarily that it's a convenient hill to shout from. More because this is a tool forum rather than a general forum. Believe it or not there are those among us that practice things beyond posting in a forum full of people we don't even know. There are those of us that still attempt to live to the ideals we express.
I do agree with the premise 100%, though.
I s'pose. I'd guess if we went to a household audit of MiUSA (outside of cars, for which I make zero apologies), I'd come out very well vs. the general population and GJ, but I'm luckier than most.
laughs in American /s:
Never mind that being headquartered in the US still means f__ all for production COO.
I support USA manufacturing by purchasing used on eBay. 'murica.
Before or after, they were free warranty replacements?
Before, obviously. I'm no fraud.
not sure if serious.
Good.
General Geoff
Well-known member
You are supporting nobody but the ebay vendor you bought your goods from. If you want to support USA manufacturing, purchase new from the manufacturer or from an authorized retailer.
Consumerism 101: Most buyers of x widget will buy the absolute cheapest version of said widget that works.
The main exception to this rule is luxury/premium branded widgets, which are often purchased as a signifier of wealth or status. Cultivating a successful luxury brand is the holy grail for many companies, because they can charge much more for and fetch a much higher profit margin from luxury widgets.
See also: Harbor Freight's Icon brand. Guarantee they make 3x the profit from all the Icon-branded stuff vs the cheap Pittsburgh tools they sell.
That's mainly true. I'd guess there are additional costs in the Icon stuff - they are better made and finished - but definitely they're far more profitable, even sold in lower volumes.
The other side of it is the companies on the product side - if they just wander forward and don't modernize, build their market, etc., they mostly wind up toast. That's what happened to many of the MiUSA tool companies IMHO.
False. I buy them used someone else bought them new. They buy more new since I bought their used ones then sell their used ones to me again and then they buy even more new.
If I didn't buy them used they wouldn't buy more new.
See.
guitarbutt
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2017
- Messages
- 237
Try removing the tin foil hat next time you log onto the internet
King Chrome
Member
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- Jul 29, 2023
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- 18
Those crimpers work but you're going to regret not having a pair or two of the ratcheting crimpers laying around in a bag.
The best thing I ever got from HF was an air impact. I used it a lot on a 8 gallon hotdog compressor. Everyone online pretends like an 8 gallon won't work because it's to small but it does work for taking of that one impossible bolt. It's not like I'm trying to run a commercial shop with it.
The best thing I ever got from HF was an air impact. I used it a lot on a 8 gallon hotdog compressor. Everyone online pretends like an 8 gallon won't work because it's to small but it does work for taking of that one impossible bolt. It's not like I'm trying to run a commercial shop with it.
General Geoff
Well-known member
Troll level 12, well played sir
LWB
Well-known member
Why do you guys have to drag COO into every post. The OP was having a bit of fun and you Debbie downers are dragging **** talk into it, FFS.
I don't have a HF here but Canadian tire and Princess auto have saved my **** a few times.
I don't have a HF here but Canadian tire and Princess auto have saved my **** a few times.
For all of HF's faults, one of their main appeals was focusing on tools and having the widest selection of specialty ones per square footage. Can you pick up a hydraulic tubing bender, a set of needle files, and a solar panel at the big box stores? Maybe you can, but I'd get lost finding them there.
That was kind of my point from the beginning, the convenience of a well stocked tool store, often not that far away (any more), good prices a plus.
I supposed If my transmission fell out, I could take Uber the 1.2 miles and probably purchase most of what I’d need to put it back in.
Luckily it was just a broken wire.
I appreciate you taking a mostly “who cares?” Thread to the bonus level.
jonesg
Well-known member
He had to open the "special drawer" to break out the good stuff - Chinese Craftsman.
Jim greengo
Well-known member
There's a name that comes to mind,but I'm not going to mention it. Hahaha
***** Eye.
Jim greengo
Well-known member
I'll be the 1st to admit that 20 years ago you'd have a tough time getting me into a bottom of the harbor freight store.
But they've come a long ways since then,you just have to spend a little time picking and choosing.
jonesg
Well-known member
The odds for success increase with the lower number of moving parts.
inverse proportional.
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If we want to know who to blame for the current state of US manufacturing, maybe look in the mirror and this forum is the perfect place to "reflect", since we have our lifelong obsession with Sears.
For a hundred years we could have paid and endless number of US manufacturers a fair price for their products. But, instead we went to Sears, where we could get that manufacturer's exact same(or similar) product - with a different name, for less money. Hell, in later years, wait for a sale and pay even less. Everything, not just tools. Underpants, refrigerators, tires. Wasn't even just Sears, Sam Walton, Kmart. Everybody had to feed those demanding "bargains", always searching for the lowest price.
When a manufacture has to "discount", that hurts their bottom line, no matter their volume. 9th grade economics. Might be one good reason that nearly tool (and ever other product) by a US company we love is either out of business, importing their products, or has been gobbled up by yet another greedy, profit obsessed conglomerate.
Obviously we are not here typing on our US made computers, but will bash HF for all of our problems, which almost sounds like organized propaganda. (but then I watch a lot of historical documentaries.)
For a hundred years we could have paid and endless number of US manufacturers a fair price for their products. But, instead we went to Sears, where we could get that manufacturer's exact same(or similar) product - with a different name, for less money. Hell, in later years, wait for a sale and pay even less. Everything, not just tools. Underpants, refrigerators, tires. Wasn't even just Sears, Sam Walton, Kmart. Everybody had to feed those demanding "bargains", always searching for the lowest price.
When a manufacture has to "discount", that hurts their bottom line, no matter their volume. 9th grade economics. Might be one good reason that nearly tool (and ever other product) by a US company we love is either out of business, importing their products, or has been gobbled up by yet another greedy, profit obsessed conglomerate.
Obviously we are not here typing on our US made computers, but will bash HF for all of our problems, which almost sounds like organized propaganda. (but then I watch a lot of historical documentaries.
)It's a script. People have it in their heads, and for some reason they're happy enough to not really inspect it for truth. It's the shiny target.If we want to know who to blame for the current state of US manufacturing, maybe look in the mirror and this forum is the perfect place to "reflect", since we have our lifelong obsession with Sears.
For a hundred years we could have paid and endless number of US manufacturers a fair price for their products. But, instead we went to Sears, where we could get that manufacturer's exact same(or similar) product - with a different name, for less money. Hell, in later years, wait for a sale and pay even less. Everything, not just tools. Underpants, refrigerators, tires. Wasn't even just Sears, Sam Walton, Kmart. Everybody had to feed those demanding "bargains", always searching for the lowest price.
When a manufacture has to "discount", that hurts their bottom line, no matter their volume. 9th grade economics. Might be one good reason that nearly tool (and ever other product) by a US company we love is either out of business, importing their products, or has been gobbled up by yet another greedy, profit obsessed conglomerate.
Obviously we are not here typing on our US made computers, but will bash HF for all of our problems, which almost sounds like organized propaganda. (but then I watch a lot of historical documentaries.
[I got really carried away and somehow this became my morning research project - apologies for the length, but didn't want to throw it away when I realized how overboard it is... ]
The Sears/Craftsman thing many of us have (or had) evolved from convenience as much as anything - Sears was easy and everywhere, if only by catalog for some in some areas (I'm just barely old enough to remember the four-inch-thick Sears catalogs). They had legacy, recognition and accessibility. I doubt non-professionals before the turn of the century could name a single tool brand outside of Craftsman - why would they? On top of that, the world of DIY was pretty limited. Before the internet (and especially YouTube), the size and scope of the DIY universe was pretty limited - the "how" information was pretty hard to get, so you called somebody. And lots of tools were not only expensive but hard to justify if you couldn't get the information to do things yourself.
As the internet began to flip that script, Sears was already crumbling (A) because they weren't evolving and (B) because their exec team was eating it from the inside. Walmart, Target, Amazon and many others finished it off. Of course, HF has been growing during that time too, though I'd guess box stores like Lowe's and Home Depot outstripped HF's sales in the tool category until relatively recently. They're probably the biggest standalone tool retailer, but 2022 revenue was apparently $5B, Home Depot was $157B. Lowe's was $96B. Obviously those guys sell vastly more than tools, but saying HF has shuttered US tool makers in the face of that is pretty laughable.
Everything I just mentioned almost completely leaves out the MiUSA tool makers (at least the ones we all talk about). They were focused on the professional market (and mostly still are). But while they were doing the same old thing (for the most part), the world of DIY exploded and a lot more tools from all over the place became available, especially China. Of course, Craftsman has already put in the mainstream - I vaguely remember seeing 'Made in China' on a set of wrenches I was buying and thinking something along the lines of "Well, it's what they have, and I guess if it says Craftsman..."). MiUSA was still focused on the pro market. The problems with that are (A) it's not growing all that fast, especially with DIY (B) the DIY tools were eating away at the edges of the pro market and (C) all that competitive pressure was drastically changing price points. What I paid for that Craftsman set of wrenches was probably close to $100 in today's dollars, which buys some much-nicer wrenches these days.
Net: what killed a lot of MiUSA tool brands was doing things the same way in the face of a radically-shifting world. Malco not being able to sell enough $45 MiUSA vice grips to keep the factory open isn't HF's fault. They got plenty of free advertising when they entered the market and still couldn't make it work. That market doesn't really exist any more.
In a lot of ways Sears is far more to blame than HF. At worst, Harbor Freight walked through the door opened by Sears and now owns the house. That house is in far better shape than it was back then IMHO. HF was pretty **** overall 25 years ago, but these days has a lot of compelling options. But in terms of market, it's still a sliver based on what info I can find:
The US power-tools market (where HF is probably very small/weak, but pretty obviously an area of focus for them lately), appears to be roughly the same size - low-ish $20B a year. Let's call it $45B combined.
At $5B, HF isn't dominating anyone, other than guys like Northern Tool, and probably in profitability in the segment. They're very visible, but they're not "the problem".
And again - the single most devastating and landscape-changing retailer in the world is Walmart, and it's not close. While Amazon is also a major force in terms of revenue and business model, they haven't changed the face of small towns all over the country where nearly every drug store, retailer, grocery store, etc. in those towns is obliterated when the local Walmart opens. Amazon hasn't been as-directly responsible for all kinds of small-to-medium-sized domestic production of things ranging from clothes to furniture to hardware/tools and more being closed and moved offshore. (FWIW, I'm not saying Amazon is a shiny, benevolent entity, I'm just saying they've dug fewer graves than Walmart).
For the record, I do occasionally shop at Walmart, but I at least think about it. I'm sitting on a couch made about three hours away. I have a couple dozen pairs of shoes/boots made in the USA. Almost all of my suits/business clothes and dress shirts were made here. My kitchen and dining room tables/chairs were made here. The jeans I'll wear tomorrow were made 35 minutes from here from denim made about an hour in the other direction in a factory that was the last of its kind in North America, and now closed. For a DIYer, I have more MiUSA tools (SnapOn, SK, Matco) than I can justify, but I got them mainly as presents to myself. I try to buy small and local when I can. But I'm very fortunate financially and ultimately the world doesn't support that in the way it used to. (I'm not trying to say/insinuate I'm wealthy - we make more than most and we're relatively frugal, especially my wife. The newest cars in my household are over 10 years old and we've been living in the same house for over 20 years)
I can't say I love what's happened, but I save the vitriol for my mirror and wallet, and assign a fair share of blame for the companies actually responsible for it (see the Walmart story in my previous post). HF and Lowe's have done their own damage - given their size vs. HF (50X revenue combined) they're likely a much-bigger killer of MiUSA than Harbor Freight. And, of course, they're also the main reason local hardware stores mainly don't exist any more too, which I definitely miss. When I look at HF and see a US-owned company employing 25,000 Americans who make competitive money and get category-leading benefits while providing me a lot of good-to-excellent value, options and customer service, I'm grateful they exist.
/rant
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RalphInCA
Well-known member
Good comment.
S-K would probably be doing fine today, with updated machinery new products, if enough people purchased their products at a price that the Company needed to charge to remain profitable.
Apparently that didn't happen.
Apparently that didn't happen.
SK is easy - they remained in the 1950's or so. They essentially died for it. They were also very proud of their fax machine, but probably should have paid more attention to their website.
Really dumb reponse. I think you flunked geopolitics 101
Dumbest coment ever. America cannot exist on a service economy. HF is one of the worst things to happen to America. HF doesn't provide value, junk at the cost of US manufacturing jobs. Its a mental illness shopping at HF and funding a country that supports our demise. Wanting cheap **** destroyed US manufacturing period, its a goal of Made in China 2025. I hope you Harbor Freight lovers are proud of your US General garbage boxes after China gets the better of us especially in a war because you HF lovers funded it. Harbor Freight one of the most terrible things to happen to America. Screw Harbor Freight, the company that DESTROYED the USA Tool Industry...and yet gullible people speak kind words about this horrible company. Really sad and pathetic. I toast to the demise of Harbor Freight, a store America DOESN'T NEED!!!
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RedneckWelder
Well-known member
You strike me as the kind of person that gets on the Facebook pages of news stations and newspapers and posts unhinged rants in the comments sections of articles completely unrelated to the subject of the posts
Since you don’t go into HF stores you wouldn’t know they do have some USA manufactured tools and products.
The Time I spent at Harbor freight and working on my car, was time I didn’t have to spend in our expensive vacation rental, listening to family members, argue, cry and fight over this and that and the other thing.
There’s no value in that?
