HF vs Lincoln Welder

[A1an]

This could be a topic beaten to death, but I have a specific situation on which I need a professional and/or experienced welders advice.

Looking to start welding and I know very little about welding. For safety sake I'll likely either take a couple classes or sit down with a more experienced welder a few times to get the basics down before I go at it solo.

My main question comes down to equipment. I am on a very limited budget here and I do not want to buy used for fear of getting burned on a deal (since I really do not know how to shop for used welders). A few friends who dabble in welding suggested I pick up a cheap HF unit to get started. I'm open to the idea of this since the initial investment is low and it would likely do what I need for a while (basic/minor welding on car sheet metal, misc stupid little projects, and eventually building bicycle frames for family/friends). Down the road I will upgrade to a more proper gas shielded MIG or possibly a TIG, but at this point I want to learn on a limited budget.

So I looked at the "buzz box" from HF that a friend suggested:
http://www.harborfreight.com/welding/mig-flux-welders/90-amp-flux-wire-welder-98871.html

Then I found this Lincoln kit:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200434915_200434915

Price on the Lincoln kit is considerably higher but it does come with some accessories that I will need. Lincoln also comes with a 1 year warranty as opposed to the 90 day warranty on the HF unit.

I know Lincoln is a big name in the welding market, but is this lower end Lincoln a quality unit? Are there any other basic welders that I should consider?

 

[antinym]

one concern, though not immediate, is getting replacement parts.
If your Lincoln broke, you can get parts pretty quickly from multiple sources.
The the HF broke, you have a number in your manual you can call and that's it.
I found 1 online complaint that the part took 6-8 weeks to be delivered, but that's only 1 account.

 

[78Bird]

The quality of the machine and ease of use is SO much better with a name brand.

A Hobart is less expensive while being good quality.

I've used those HF POSs and they don't weld well. The adjustments are clunky, the gas feed crappy and not andjustable, the voltage... iffy.

If you can't swing it, save up some more.

 

[78Bird]

On second thought, Summit and Northern Tool sells a house branded welder now that looks to be a decent piece. Definitly a step up from the cheapie HF ****. Might be a decent middle ground.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

If I was going to a drag race against a top fuel car would I choose a tricycle?

Would I buy oxygen to summit Everest from Chico'o Oxygen and Cigarette shop?

 

[A1an]

If I was going to a drag race against a top fuel car would I choose a tricycle?

Would I buy oxygen to summit Everest from Chico'o Oxygen and Cigarette shop?

Is it a top fuel powered tricycle?

Are you a smoker? Then it is probably not wise to quit cold turkey before the climb.


I'd agree with the analogies if I were looking to make a career out of this or if I had some experience under my belt. I have a family to support and a limited budget to work with. But even if my budget were unlimited I'd have a hard time justifying spending $800+ on a welder when I have zero experience. Like anything else in life, beginners have to cut their teeth on something. Whether it be bicycling, cars, etc...it is wise to start with limited investment and allow the equipment purchases to grow as our skills do.

 

[Major Ramifications]

I know what you mean about not knowing what to look for on a used one, but I still think that may be the best route. The Cash America pawn shops have a 30 day no questions asked return policy. That's one good way to pick up a name brand unit in your price range. I bought a Northern Tools $360 MIG welder with their "Industrial" $120 cart and a bit bottle of argon (about $300) all for only $179.99. I kept the bottle (which is all I needed) and sold the rest for $180, and I had guys practically fighting over it to buy it.
If you find one on Craigslist, have the owner demonstrate it for you before you buy. He should be happy to do that for you.

Botton line, I'd rather have a used good one than a new cheap one.
If you really want new, check out Eastwood's MIG welders. They offer a lot of bang for the buck. Also, Campbell Hausfeld has a line of welders and CH is good to deal with when you need parts.

 

[Buckgnarly]

Edit: oops, missed what you said about used.

Try a local Jeep club or something, most of those guys are reputable if they are part of the community. First welder I bought was sight unseen (I was actually overseas) from a guy in my Jeep club. Came home 6 months later and it was perfect....still using it today actually.

Why not used? You can pick up a Hobart Handler 175, 185, series for about 400 bucks or so from CL, just be patient and watch.

I could never buy welding stuff from HF. Price is cheap, but everyone I know who has one has them break at least once....of course you can replace them many times over, but you get what you pay for.

 

[lametec]

I'd agree with the analogies if I were looking to make a career out of this or if I had some experience under my belt.

I'll say the opposite of what you're saying.

Having no experience is the #1 reason you should buy a good welder. Trying to learn on a POS is hard, and you'll end up frustrated. You'll wonder if it's you or the welder, and well, with a POS welder you won't know.

 

[charle10]

I'd keep your eyes open for a decent used one on Craigslist or your local pawn shops, or even your local welding store. I ended up with a millermatic 135 for $275 from the local pawn shop, and had someone that knew how to weld try it out for me. Figured even if I ended up hating welding I could at least get my money back re-selling it a few years down the road. If you do your research you will see that almost everyone recommends spending the extra bucks and getting a name brand.

 

[91bronc300]

Why not try a community college welding class. Then you can practice on their name brand equipment and have access to instructors and whatnot. That way you'll have your own knowledge base when it comes time to buy your own welder.

 

[filtered]

I'd go for the Hobart Handler 125 if I was you. It's more money than the Lincoln handy core, but it will also do thicker material and has more voltage adjustments. Also buy yourself a real helmet, not like the face shield that comes with the lincoln. Learn with flux core wire. It's less to deal with and easier to weld outdoors. You'll also get most of your money back should you decide to sell it.

I am not a pro, never took a class for welding. I just learned to weld last year after about 5 minutes worth of instruction from a friend. It's pretty easy to pick up if you have someone that knows what they are doing to show you the right way. Also have them show you what happens when you don't have enough voltage, when the feed speed is too slow and too fast. That's all my friend did for me and I can weld metal together well enough to bend the metal and not break the weld when punished with a BFH. Plus once cleaned up with a wire wheel my welds look pretty good.

One more tip for you, if you plan on sticking with welding and have the money, buy yourself a good auto darkening helmet from the start. They are easier to learn with and if you buy a good one you won't need to upgrade later.

 

[MGMatt]

My recommendation is take a class before you invest in any equipment. You will have the opportunity to learn what welding with good equipment is like. They will show you how to setup the welder to get the best weld, and hopefully they will let you practice, practice, practice. Once you have a good understanding of the hows and whys of welding You will be able to make a better decision about what welder you want to invest in.

A good auto-darkening helmet makes learning a lot easier.

 

[Vicegrip]

Someone gave me a no name import 120V mig welder. 18 year old next door has it now. We just used it last night last while I taught him the basics. I am glad that I went name brand for all my welders. All aspects seem to be a bit better with the name brand stuff. My little Miller 120 welds well and is quiet. The import buzzes and hums and needs to be tinkered and tweaked to get it to weld OK. Things like turning the wire feed knob does not produce consistent changes in wire speed.

I would go with a good brand used over a new import if it is anything like the one I used last night. It works but I can turn a better weld over a wider range of conditions with a same size and type brand name welder.

Find someone that has some experience to help you get and learn to use a welder. This is not required but it sure helps.

 

[MGMatt]

Just reread Your original post. You said you wanted to do "basic/minor welding on car sheet metal, misc stupid little projects, and eventually building bicycle frames for family/friends".

A gas welding/brazing can do all of these things and would be less expensive. The first welding I learned how to do was "coat hanger" brazing car exhausts. It's a good way to learn the basics.

 

[TA^Guy]

If you are just learning and going to do stuff like just sheet metal than the HF isn't bad for that. Yes it's cheaply made, doesn't feel as nice in your hand as a Lincoln or Hobart but it does work. I have one that I bought maybe 10 years ago to play around with and my biggest issues with it is that feed isn't smooth and if it's not used in a while it won't feed at all and I have manually get it moving before it will work on it's own. If I do anything other than sheet metal I'll use another welder.

 

[DodgeZ]

I had an HF welder, I was a piece O ****. I returned it and got a Hobart. It is well worth the extra money. There was a write up on fixing the HF to be a nice welder... Not worth the trouble in my opinion.

 

[A1an]

Just reread Your original post. You said you wanted to do "basic/minor welding on car sheet metal, misc stupid little projects, and eventually building bicycle frames for family/friends".

A gas welding/brazing can do all of these things and would be less expensive. The first welding I learned how to do was "coat hanger" brazing car exhausts. It's a good way to learn the basics.

O/A was my original thought due to cost and, at the time I was looking, I really liked the look of a brazed frame over a mig/tig welded one. Unfortunately I made the mistake of talking about it with my wife. She is convinced it will be the equivalent of having an atomic bomb out in the garage.

 

[ZRX61]

I'll say the opposite of what you're saying.

Having no experience is the #1 reason you should buy a good welder. Trying to learn on a POS is hard, and you'll end up frustrated. You'll wonder if it's you or the welder, and well, with a POS welder you won't know.

What he said. The "go to" welder in your situation seems to be the Hobart 187.

See here:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16172

Free shipping:

http://store.cyberweld.com/hobmigwel.html

 

[MGMatt]

O/A was my original thought due to cost and, at the time I was looking, I really liked the look of a brazed frame over a mig/tig welded one. Unfortunately I made the mistake of talking about it with my wife. She is convinced it will be the equivalent of having an atomic bomb out in the garage.

Find some y-tube videos on O/A safety, maybe 2-guys or stacy david did a segment on this, and watch them with your wife. Or better yet get her to take a basic welding class with you. Once she sees whats involved she might be more understanding. This may be easier said than done.

 

[jtbinvalrico]

Grab one of the Eastwood 135s.....it's gas ready and mine runs like a champ. Furthermore, there's no doubt in my mind that I'll be able to recoup a significant amount of its cost when I sell it to step up to something like a Miller 211.

You won't regret it........maybe I'll run in to you refilling my gas bottle at Airgas off E. Broadway Av

 

[toxicz28]

I'd agree with the analogies if I were looking to make a career out of this or if I had some experience under my belt. I have a family to support and a limited budget to work with.

That being siad, it would be better for you to save up your money a little longer, than to spen $200 on a HF machine, then a year later $800 on a real machine because the HF is not good enough, junk, etc.

 

[gabeancounter]

What he said. The "go to" welder in your situation seems to be the Hobart 187.

See here:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16172

Free shipping:

http://store.cyberweld.com/hobmigwel.html

FYI Tractor Supply has this one on sale right now! I am trying hard to talk myself out of it! $549
http://www.tractorsupply.com/hobart-handler-reg-187-welder-3807126

 

[sherlocktk]

Well I started with the HF welder in about 2002 or so, and used it reliably until about 2 years ago. I knew nothing about welding at the time and my dad gave me a hard time for buying a tool that I did not need. I bought it because it was all I could afford at the time.

If you want to stick 2 pieces of metal together and dont care much how it looks or how strong it is (non-mission critical) the HF welder works ok. It took me about 2 spools of wire before I became "proficient" at welding with it to where I would trust the welds. A couple of things worth noting. The HF welder is not "cold tip" meaing you always need to pay attention to where you set the gun down and it it hard to start the bead right where you want it witout an auto darkening helmet.

Also the HF unit is AC current not DC, makes for not as clean of a weld. I believe the lincoln unit is a DC machine which it in itself will yield a cleaner weld with less splatter, even with flux core wire.

I would say if you want a welder just to see if you like it, get he HF unit and play around on it. If you know you want a welder get a lincoln/hobart/miller and spend as much as you are comfortable spending to glue 2 pieces of metal together.

I now have a chineese TIG/plasma cutter and a Hobart Handler 140 mig welder which i just love

 

[ZRX61]

when I sell it to step up to something like a Miller 211.

Except you won't, You'l keep the 140 & set it up with .023 wire for the thin autobody stuff etc & drop some .035 in the 211 for the thicker stuff...

 

[emeraldcoupe]

i say look for a good used machine. i bought my lincoln weld pac 100 off craigslist for $225, it was used once. it's a flux machine but can be converted to gas. i just did a gas conversion on it and it welds 1000x better now.

 

[Vicegrip]

Except you won't, You'l keep the 140 & set it up with .023 wire for the thin autobody stuff etc & drop some .035 in the 211 for the thicker stuff...

So true. A good brand 120V with .023 is a great tool for many things. Smaller gun is easer to see around too.

 

[Alchymist]

Just my own personal opinion (YMMV), I wouldn't buy any of the cheaper mig welders with a 120v input. Stick to one with a 240v input. Seems to be the dividing line between capable and useless. And skip the ones with 20% duty cycle.....

 

[Tom2]

I have the $90 HF mig/flux welder. Haven't used it a ton yet, but when I have used it - it's been just fine. It's great for a DIY'er who wouldn't normally want to spend $3-500 on a better brand welder. Theres no reason for me to buy anything else. I also got the warranty with it..So it breaking really isn't a problem. I'll just exchange it for another. But it's a rather simple machine, so more than likely it'll last fairly long under limited use.

You just gotta change out the wire they come with..It's **** from all accounts. I've never used it. I put Lincoln wire in it as soon as I got it. From what I've heard the wire HF sells separately is actually decent stuff made in Italy.

 

[ibedayank]

What he said. The "go to" welder in your situation seems to be the Hobart 187.

See here:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16172

Free shipping:

http://store.cyberweld.com/hobmigwel.html

or if you can afford it miller 211

FLUXCORE wire is damn near useless for sheetmetal
I have a 90amp flux machine and does great on stuff like exaustpipe and other metals about as thick. for sheetmetal.. falls on its face and just burns through it making it look like swiss cheese


and the welders you buy at lowes homedepot northerntool TSc are made cheaper less funtions than the ones sold at your local welding store

 

[diggerrick]

About 10 years ago I had one of those little 90A Harbor Freight welders that worked ok, but not great, and I hated the "hot" tip - maybe they've changed that now.

On the Lincoln, for a couple bucks more I would recommend:

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00920580000P?sid=IDx20070921x00003a&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=00920580000P

I've had this one for 7 or 8 years and it always works great.

 

[A1an]

Great information and a lot to consider. Thanks everyone.

 

[dmw56]

I bought a cheap mig welder once. Never could get it feed the wire smoothly. It was a waste of money.

Buy a brand name they are more expensive but well worth it. You won't go wrong with a Hobart, Miller, Lincoln, ESAB, or Clarke.

 

[A29]

Buy Lincoln Hobart, or Miller. You'll be glad you did.

 

[A1an]

I found a local welding class at a tech school for around $250. Looks pretty basic and hits all the methods (arc, mig, tig, etc). Seems well worth the money and I'll be doing this for sure. Down the road I want to go TIG but I understand that isn't exactly the most user friendly for beginners. Perhaps this class can help me figure out if I can make that leap to TIG now (after saving a bit longer of course) or wait for TIG until I become more proficient on MIG/fluxcore machine.

 

[jtbinvalrico]

....you mean I can get more tools and keep the old ones..... I'll take that advice, guys.

 

[Daddy_Rabbit]

HF vs. Lincoln ... same argument as Geely Merrie 300 vs. Mercedes C

piss-poor imitation of a well made product

 

[ZRX61]

II want to go TIG but I understand that isn't exactly the most user friendly for beginners. Perhaps this class can help me figure out if I can make that leap to TIG now (after saving a bit longer of course) or wait for TIG until I become more proficient on MIG/fluxcore machine.

TIG is easier if you're proficient at Oxy/Acetylene. Oddly enough, some of the best tig welders I've seen were also drummers...