High Ceiling Auto lift Door Opener Project

[jimval]

Hi everyone,
Just embarked on a project to install two lifts and raise garage doors to vertical lift. My ceiling is 14' high and the space is being wasted. Had a lot of problems getting people around here that know what they are doing. Got one price where they wanted $2900 two install two openers with a torsion system using existing doors. Too much for me so I am doing it myself.

I Bought two direct lift pro park 9 plus lifts from Greg Smith Equip:

http://www.gregsmithequipment.com/Direct-Lift-Pro-Park-9-PLUS-p/tppro-park9w.htm

Going to buy two Liftmaster 3800 jackshaft openers:

http://www.liftmaster.com/cw/product_family/0,1064,uid-j2uFbmVpaWVqbg==_759-id-42,00.html

I am using two Garaga model "Standard 138" 7'x9' doors:

www.garaga.com

I am going to use stopping bottom brackets for additional safety:

www.sscorp.com

The only problem I am having is trying to find out what size torsion springs to use. I don't have torsion now and need to get the bar/bearings/drums/cables. Does anyone know where I can find out what size spring and where would be a good place to buy the torsion spring/bar set-up ? Since this is a vertical lift application I believe the calculations are non-standard?

Thoughts, comments, concerns, and help are welcome.

 

[bmwpower]

Subscribed... Your ceiling looks pretty high, close to my height. Watch out for your drum size. According to the 3800 directions, you can't use a drum over x inches in diameter....if your drum diameter is like mine, you will be over the limit.

Nova55ss can probably give us more detail since the last time he had problems.

 

[PAToyota]

Was looking at the pictures first and was just about to ask why you didn't go with vertical lift doors... Gotta love those "one size fits all" contractors...

 

[nova65ss]

Going with straight verts will require a drum larger tha 6" which will rule out the use of the LM 3800 opener. Did you take the horizontal and just stand it upside down on the vertical, can't quite tell from the pic?

 

[jimval]

Yes I took the two horizontal tracks and flipped them, switched sides and cut off about 18". I still have to put the 18" horizontal piece up on the top on the vertical that is showing in the pic. Just started working on it tonight.......

 

[jimval]

3800 manual says 4-6" drums with no tapered drums larger than 6". I called liftmaster and they said no tapered drums at all because of the cable tension monitor. I'm kinda thinking a 6" tapered drum with strategic placement of the cable tension monitor might be the way to go???

 

[bmwpower]

I have 13+ foot of lift and my drums are like 8" tapered. Not sure if that is the right size for my doors, but it seems to be. Doors hang right where I leave them, no drop, no lift.

You might need 8's (or whatever the next size up from 6 is) is what I'm getting at.

 

[nova65ss]

3800 manual says 4-6" drums with no tapered drums larger than 6". I called liftmaster and they said no tapered drums at all because of the cable tension monitor. I'm kinda thinking a 6" tapered drum with strategic placement of the cable tension monitor might be the way to go???

The 3800 will work with a 6" tapered drum we have done it several times with no problems. The cable tension monitor only monitors the tension on the cable. If there is any slack in the cable it will shut the motor off to keep the door from coming off track.

The problem you will have with the 6" drum is getting the door to balance properly. The larger drum acts like gears and changes the rate of the spring as it goes up and down. If the door isn't balanced properly any side mount opener will have problems working correctly. I'm not saying you won't be able to get it to work but if your already having a hard time getting springs your going to have an even harder time convincing someone to give you the "wrong" springs.

 

[jimval]

The 3800 will work with a 6" tapered drum we have done it several times with no problems. The cable tension monitor only monitors the tension on the cable. If there is any slack in the cable it will shut the motor off to keep the door from coming off track.

The problem you will have with the 6" drum is getting the door to balance properly. The larger drum acts like gears and changes the rate of the spring as it goes up and down.

I thought the whole purpose of a tapered drum was that it starts winding at the six inch diameter (faster lift speed) and as the door goes up and the torsion spring exhibits less "up force" on the door, the drum begins to wind at say 4 inches providing the additional torque to lift the door higher with less assistance from the springs?

bmwpwr, your picture is what I am modeling my setup from.........

 

[nova65ss]

Sounds like you have the idea although speed is not of much importance. Basically a standard door goes almost straight back so alot of the weight is gone because of it being in the horizontal position. On a high lift door the weight never goes back so it is always lifting the same weight but the springs are still losing tension as it goes up, to compensate they taper the drum which kind of gears it down. Hard for me to put it in words but hopefully you get the idea.


Give me a little while and I can put it in my spring calculator and figure out your drum size.

 

[nova65ss]

My engineering program comes up with an 850-132 drum which is about 10-12" in dia. You should be able to get it to work like BMW with an 8" but a 6" is going to be tough in my opinion. The door is going to want to shoot up off the ground. There are other openers available that will work with the larger drum it just isn't going to be the LM 3800. A zap will work with a vertical lift drum no problem.

 

[enginerd]

we are planning to use the 3800 on a 12'x10' door that is on a 16.5' high wall, so it'll be going straight up essentially with a small curve at the top. Is there anything to watch out for?

 

[JMURiz]

Don't I remember seeing someone that mounted a 'normal' style chain driven opener vertically on the wall, with the track going slightly out from the front wall? Maybe I need some more sleep but I thought someone posted pics of that.

edit:
I found what I was looking for, but it was for an angled one, bummer:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5174&d=1141619789

 

[bmwpower]

we are planning to use the 3800 on a 12'x10' door that is on a 16.5' high wall, so it'll be going straight up essentially with a small curve at the top. Is there anything to watch out for?

As above, the drum size. It sounds like that with that big of a door, going that high up the wall, you're definitely going to need a drum larger than 6".

 

[icnsltmfg]

It almost sounded like the post came from me....I just installed my Pro Park 9 2 weekends ago myself, and I have on order 2 3800 liftmasters and a new high lift kits. I spent a bit of time on the phone with Liftmaster Tech, and the restrictions are a bit confusing. My doors are not as large 6'6" X 7' or so going up 11'3". They say you cannot use CONE drums, but tapered up to a point should work...but over 6" may stat to cause an issue with the safety cable sensor.
I am not an expert so listen to the other guy's...However if you are installing the Pro Park 9 yourself, please give me call and I can save you a bit of time with some short cuts / heads up...PM me with a tel#
Adam

 

[jimval]

With all these spring/opener/balance issues I am almost ready to install an elevator style cable/counter weight system. Think about it. A simple cable over a pulley on each side with a roughly 50# lead weight on each side. Each side would only need 122 cubic inches of lead which isn't very much at all. Each lead weight could be covered by a simple enclosure and best of all the door is completely balanced to whatever weight is chosen throughout the entire lift.

 

[kbs2244]

I have thought of counter weights more than once. Put the cables and weights down into tubes at the sides of the doors.
My main concern is that wound up spring ready to let go. Sure, the torsion style springs are held captive by the shaft, but....
If a cable breaks you get a pail of sand falling a few feet, and it is captured in the tube. Not much danger there.

 

[bmwpower]

Solution?

I think it was stated before - if you have to go that high with a big door like that, you'll need a different opener, NOT the 3800.

Get the Zap or a commercial Liftmaster jackshaft opener.

http://www.garagegearstore.com/subcategories.php?main=27&Cat=129

http://www.liftmaster.com/cw/product_model/0,1064,uid-j2WFaGdhZ2hwYw==_71-id-1,00.html

It will cost you more, but what are you going to do?

 

[icnsltmfg]

I found one of the suppliers of the Zap unit and it was $400 less $50 discount...that is cheaper than the 3800 I just bought.

 

[enginerd]

Solution?

I think it was stated before - if you have to go that high with a big door like that, you'll need a different opener, NOT the 3800.

Get the Zap or a commercial Liftmaster jackshaft opener.

http://www.garagegearstore.com/subcategories.php?main=27&Cat=129

http://www.liftmaster.com/cw/product_model/0,1064,uid-j2WFaGdhZ2hwYw==_71-id-1,00.html

It will cost you more, but what are you going to do?

Yea, I think we're going to have to go with the Medium Duty Commercial unit. The two smaller front entrance doors can have the standard 3800, and the back garage entrance door can use the 3800 on a high lift b/c its only an 8'x8' door.

Any price quotes on the Medium cuty commercial liftmaster?

Thanks

 

[bmwpower]

I found one of the suppliers of the Zap unit and it was $400 less $50 discount...that is cheaper than the 3800 I just bought.

What?!? Where? Please post....

 

[icnsltmfg]

http://www.acd-usa.com/815RL.html

Ask for Brad

 

[nova65ss]

What?!? Where? Please post....

Yes where did you find that? I can't purchase it for that and I buy direct from the dealer??

If it were me I would go with the Zap over the LM commercial units. Easier to install/ wire and much much smoother and quieter.

 

[nova65ss]

http://www.acd-usa.com/815RL.html

Ask for Brad

Ahh, I see.

 

[jimval]

Anyone ever use Gary Schrock's spreadsheet found on this page?:

http://www.truetex.com/garage.htm

Seems to work very well in theory.

I can design a spring that has the required lifting force at the bottom and the required holding force at the top.

 

[jimval]

I picked up my two Pro Park 9 lifts from the trucking terminal and raised one door. The door is being held up by two 40 pound counter weights.
Here are the pics.........

 

[bmwpower]

Ahh, I see.

What? Is that the stripped model or something?

 

[nova65ss]

Well that is the dealer I purchase alot from and it does not come with remotes, receiver or the auto lock. I am a little disappointed they are selling/ quoting to the public, if one of my local customers found out what they sell for it could have a big affect on my margins. Not too mention I purchase a few a month and one person calls and gets the same deal

 

[kbs2244]

I really like the way you have the tracks. They cannot go more than 2 feet horizional, and give you all kinds of room in the room.
What did you do for balanceing the doors? Springs, counter weights?

 

[jimval]

I have counter weights temporarily just so I can open the door. I plan on doing my best to get both lifts assembled this weekend and get the corvette up on the lift out of the way. Then I am going to weigh the door in the closed position (~110 lbs) and weight the door in the fully open position (~82 pounds) to get the exact weights. I have an excel spreadsheet that I can tweak all the variables. Plan is to get two Liftmaster 3800's with 6 inch drums, two torsion springs per door. I already have springs picked out that fit the 110# closed /82# open weights. Just need to use a scale to make sure the door weights are accurate.

 

[Baer]

Here's how my installation turned out yesterday. Installed one 8'x18' and one 8'x9' with commercial LM openers. Follow pitch of the roof and gives me enough clearance for lift(s). Third door is 7'x7' on side with regular opener mounted so it leaves the overall ceiling height unobstructed.

 

[enginerd]

Baer,

Is that the Medium Duty Commercial LM?

Two of our doors are simple and can be handled by the standard 3800 residential unit. One of them is a standard 9x8 door but its a high lift, in fact its being lifted straight up in the air, no curve/bend. The 4th door is a 12x10 and its being lifted straight up with a 3-4" curl/curve. These are steel doors with wood design/accents, so it won't be light. We're hoping the Medium Duty commercial unit can do the job, however we might just go overkill and go commercial grade/size for all of them.

Anyone else using commercial LM's?

 

[kbs2244]

So, you can get springs with the force varying at a programed rate? And designed for a "parked" load?
Since most doors are horizonal, with no weight on the springs when open, I thought they were a kind of "all or nothing" type of thing.

 

[jimval]

So, you can get springs with the force varying at a programed rate? And designed for a "parked" load?
Since most doors are horizonal, with no weight on the springs when open, I thought they were a kind of "all or nothing" type of thing.

This hard to explain but here goes. The spring(s) provides torque. Usually inch-pounds per turn (IPPT) so the spring rate is constant. When you wind up the spring you store energy. That energy is used to lift the door. How heavy of a door that can be lifted for any given spring is determined by the cable drum size. A 4" drum will lift a heavier door than a 6" or 8" drum. Also a 4" drum will have to turn more times to lift the door to the same height than a 8" drum which means the spring unwinds more.

The bigger the drum, the less the spring unwinds. So on a vertical door (or more vertical than horizontal) you could wind up a spring 14 times as the closed door starting point. The drum then unwinds about 4 turns to full open position. This leaves 10 turns of spring force (or stored energy) still left in the spring to hold up the door in the open position.

 

[enginerd]

I'm pretty sure the spring rate will not be constant.

 

[jimval]

On a standard garage door torsional spring, the spring rate is constant. What changes is the resulting torque on the shaft and the force applied to open the door as the spring unwinds.

Spring rate "k" is inch-pounds per turn. That does not change whether you wind it 5 turns or a hundred turns.

 

[Baer]

Is that the Medium Duty Commercial LM?

The one I used is model MJ-5011. Seems to handle the big door with no problem.

 

[nova65ss]

This hard to explain but here goes. The spring(s) provides torque. Usually inch-pounds per turn (IPPT) so the spring rate is constant. When you wind up the spring you store energy. That energy is used to lift the door. How heavy of a door that can be lifted for any given spring is determined by the cable drum size. A 4" drum will lift a heavier door than a 6" or 8" drum. Also a 4" drum will have to turn more times to lift the door to the same height than a 8" drum which means the spring unwinds more.

The bigger the drum, the less the spring unwinds. So on a vertical door (or more vertical than horizontal) you could wind up a spring 14 times as the closed door starting point. The drum then unwinds about 4 turns to full open position. This leaves 10 turns of spring force (or stored energy) still left in the spring to hold up the door in the open position.

The spring unwinds the same amount no matter what the drum size. A 7' door will take 7 spring turns to lift it the full 7'. The drum only changes the rate of the spring as it travels through its cycle. You can actually change the rate by making the cable longer or shorter, there are alot of ways to spring a door. Not trying to doubt your capabilities but you will never balance that door "properly" with a drum 6" in diameter. The only way to properly balance a vertical lift door is with a tapered drum a standard drum no matter what the diameter will not work.

 

[nova65ss]

With a 110 pound vertical lift door it will take 2- .207 x 1 3/4 x 29" long springs. That is with an 850 drum. My engineering program will do it with a 575 drum but it is larger than a 6" drum. Here is a good write up on drum usage.



http://www.professionaldoordealer.com/articles/springs_tracks/673_5b1feat5.html

 

[G M]

3800 manual says 4-6" drums with no tapered drums larger than 6". I called liftmaster and they said no tapered drums at all because of the cable tension monitor. I'm kinda thinking a 6" tapered drum with strategic placement of the cable tension monitor might be the way to go???

I contacted Liftmaster a while back with the same question but got the opposite answer. I have two LM 3800 working with tapered drums on my high lift doors.