High lift conversion. 1 cable is loose when door open. That side is also higher?

[JohnnyK81]

Hey guys, just did a high lift conversion to the door (9x6.5, single spring).

A strange dilemma, 1 cable goes slack at the top of the travel. Funny thing is, that side of the door is also higher at the top (Like it's being pulled by a magical cable).

Tracks are good. I unwound the spring and started from scratch. The cables are the same tension at the bottom, and when I start winding (So the cable can't be a different length). Plus I loosened off the drum and tightened both to the same tension.

When the door is up and the cable is slack, I even then loosened off that drum, and took up the slack in teh cable. Same thing happens.

It's the oddest thing.

The only thing that is jumping out at me, is since it's a single torsion spring, the stationary cone of the spring is in the center of the garage, and the part that gets tightened is about 3/4 to the one side (The side with the TIGHT cable). Seems odd to me, but this is how I always see them. I would think the part of the spring that could be loosened and tightened should be in the center of the door, but as i said, most seem to be this way. I could (with quite a bit of work), move the stationary spring part over to the trouble side of the door, and put the end of the spring (with the bolts) in the center, but...

Thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[matt_i]

Did you rewind the spring the same way? I made a mistake on an install where I wound the spring backwards, it worked great until at the top of the track, the cable would come off of the drum.

I thought I had to wind the spring so the end cones tried to thread deeper into the spring. This was wrong. I had to wind them so the end cones are trying to thread "out" of the spring, the increasing torsion improves the "grip" apparently.

Another thought I have was, did you put a vise grip on the driveshaft against the wall when first taking the slack out of each side and setting the screws on the drums? I think if you didn't do that, then one side will be tighter than the other. The driveshaft must be stationary when taking the slack out of the cables.

Just some quick ideas

 

[JohnnyK81]

Yessir, did both those. And the first time I wound, I swore it was backwards because of the way the cone is threaded. Glad I'm not the only one who thought that. hah

 

[Jazzman442]

How hard was it to do the conversion? Also where did you buy the parts?

Price?

Garage door companys around here do know what they are. LOL

 

[Jazzman442]

How hard was it to do the conversion? Also where did you buy the parts?

Price?

Garage door companys around here do know what they are. LOL

 

[JohnnyK81]

Just some company in Canada. I think the parts came to $250 CAD. Is only springs and drums and 2 brackets pretty much.

 

[matt_i]

So I think you are going to have to wind the spring some more (tighter).

There has to be a little tension left when the cables get to the top position.

I think you can also "preload" one side very slightly to try to deal with the difference. Like try to rotate one drum around 1/16" (iow a very small turn) which might be really hard if there's a deep divot in the tube/shaft. I had the idea to make some threaded adjusters for fine-tuning the tension side-to-side but it's kind of low on the project list

Also, how much higher did you lift the door (how much higher is the driveshaft than before?) If its a big change the spring might not be able to handle the difference in extremes...iow, as in my first line I suggested winding it tighter, eventually that's going to get to a point where the door is being lifted off the floor at the bottom. I feel certain that there are springs with more coils and/or larger diameter, purposefully made for a longer total travel, but how they are spec'd is beyond my research and knowledge. I think a good mom-and-pop garage door install company or independent garage guy could give you the lowdown.

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

Check your horizontal track for square off the wall. Do the right vertical to left rear hanger then the other side. You may be off a tad. Also check that your track is level as well as the door. Open the door so one of the door joints is even with the track joint then check the other side. Put a torpedo level on the door joint and let us know how you make out. Just thinking out loud.

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

If you did not change the spring the door will never behave properly. With a high lift you never take all the weight off the door as in normal. You will have a door that will want to climb on its own. With a 6.5' door you need a minimum of 7 turns on the spring. Anything over 8 turns is not suggested. The special drums will require a different spring to balance correctly. Just thinking out loud.

 

[wssix99]

Check your horizontal track for square off the wall. Do the right vertical to left rear hanger then the other side. You may be off a tad. Also check that your track is level as well as the door. Open the door so one of the door joints is even with the track joint then check the other side. Put a torpedo level on the door joint and let us know how you make out. Just thinking out loud.

This. If all else is installed properly, your door must be racked (like a parallelogram) in relation to the wall. Also assuming that you have new/proper spring for your new tracks ^ and that you have confirmed that you have a neutral balance halfway up the door opening.

 

[JohnnyK81]

Thanks for all the responses guys!

As it is wound now, it takes a lot of my (rather light) frame to hold it down! Which isn't a concern at the moment, we'll see how the opener handles it. It does balance in the center, but yes, it lifts itself quite strongly off the ground, stops about 3/4 up, then has to be pushed the rest of the way up (I mean, it's only going to 6.5')

The spring WAS calculated by a reputable place. It could be my weight was off (I said approx 106 lbs, for a steel, uninsulated 9x6.6 door, that I added simple styrofoam too. That's what the scale said.

High lift was 33" added.

I probably have 6.5-7 turns on the door (Have been slowly adding 1/4, taking away 1/4, etc. Lost track)

I have added a bit of preload to that side (scary. Loosened the drum with the door in the up position, but figured, if the cable was slack, I was ok). Problem remained. Unsure how it's lifting that one side, but there is slack! hah

You must be correct about the parallelogram, but I didn't change anything down low. Interesting!

 

[JohnnyK81]

Everything seems square at the bottom! I haven't checked the horizontal tracks yet though.

(Honestly, I'm an engineer and I've been defeated by a garage door so far. hah)

 

[gnpenning]

Before winding springs spray a line of paint. It makes it really easy to keep track of turns.

Based on what you said about lifting your door your spring/ drum/ cable engineering is off.

How much space do you have between the roller stem and hinges?

Did you level your door panels before adjusting cable's.? ?

As mentioned your horizontal tracks need to be level and the door going up straight and not binding.

Just some starting point's that need to be done.

 

[wssix99]

It's not easy to get the horizontal tracks square.

You must be correct about the parallelogram, but I didn't change anything down low. Interesting!

If your cables are normal at the bottom, then that would be consistent with the verticals being fine. You'd only start to get problems as the top rollers go down the horizontal tracks and stray from a square path to the wall.

If you measure from the end of the horizontal tracks across to the opposing drum (so the two measurements make and "X") they should be the same distance if you are square.

 

[Walter_TA]

Take a few pics and post. Please show the up and down position. Show the drums in the up and down positions.

 

[firebirdparts]

I agree with WS6. I bet the problem is not level-ness, nor the cable, nor the spring. The problem is the location where the door has arrived when the one cable is slack. If you start moving those tracks around you'll see that you can make those cables do whatever you want.

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

There are two separate issues. A square + B square = C square to get the one cable to stay tensioned. The balance of the door is a formula based on weight, drum design, drum diameter, length of high lift and total height of door. While it is normal to balance doors a little light on high lift, this is done to ensure the door stays up in the open position. On commercial applications you install bumper springs so the door stops softly and stays there. If the door wants to jump off the floor and then does not open the door completely then the spring is incorrect. If you are using a jack shaft operator then you may be exceeding the operating parameters of the unit. It is designed with a given working load. By having excessive tension you can cause damage to unit. You also take a chance on having the cables come off the drums if you do not have enough tension on them in the fully open position, not just 3/4 open. Hope this helps.

 

[gnpenning]

I agree with WS6. I bet the problem is not level-ness, nor the cable, nor the spring. The problem is the location where the door has arrived when the one cable is slack. If you start moving those tracks around you'll see that you can make those cables do whatever you want.

That's a bet I would take.

Doors have to be level to start or everything will be off. Tracks have to be plumb and level. Spring shaft has to be level and the same distance away from the top of the door all the way across. Track has to have the correct roller spacing on both sides. Cable tension has to be equal on both sides. Mess up any or all these and the door will not open correctly and will most likely wedge to one side.

While the above will help with one issue He still has other problems.

 

[jstroede]

The spring WAS calculated by a reputable place. It could be my weight was off (I said approx 106 lbs, for a steel, uninsulated 9x6.6 door, that I added simple styrofoam too. That's what the scale said.

High lift was 33" added.

I probably have 6.5-7 turns on the door (Have been slowly adding 1/4, taking away 1/4, etc. Lost track)

So are you saying you added 33" of track, or it is 33" of high lift? Two different things.

Also I would say that you are way off on the spring too regardless. Depending on which drum you are using, you should have a spring with 8-10 turns on it.

Something doesn't add up. Also did you check that both cables were the same length? How long were they? What is the distance from the floor to the center line of your spring shaft?

Pics would definitely help too.

John

 

[JohnnyK81]

I will grab some pics when I get a second.

Cables are the same length, because they started life as 12', and I cut the ends off, inserted them into the 400-54 style drums, and tightened them down .

I believe adding 33" of track, and 33" of high lift IS the same thing in this instance, no? Considering the garage door was at garage opening height before. I could be wrong!

 

[wssix99]

I believe adding 33" of track, and 33" of high lift IS the same thing in this instance, no? Considering the garage door was at garage opening height before. I could be wrong!

No. Compared to the way the door was before, now the door (once its 33" off the ground, always has 33" more of door weight pulling on the spring. So, if left on the original spring, the balance point would move downward and the door wouldn't "like" being in the all the way up position.

If you add just a few inches of lift, additional windings of a spring might work. For something like 33", an entirely new/stronger spring would be needed.

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

The high lift drums have a larger diameter on the outside and then ramp down to the normal diameter after about 3 or 4 turns. You need a stronger spring to overcome the higher torque load then the spring will have enough left to hold the door up without being full horizontal. You need the drums and springs calculated together to have it 100%. Can it work without the drums? Maybe but not well. Good luck.

 

[Hunduh]

The high lift drums have a larger diameter on the outside and then ramp down to the normal diameter after about 3 or 4 turns. You need a stronger spring to overcome the higher torque load then the spring will have enough left to hold the door up without being full horizontal. You need the drums and springs calculated together to have it 100%. Can it work without the drums? Maybe but not well. Good luck.

Hot Rod.....thank you for the advice in my high lift thread. I finished the install today, Liftmaster 8500 and all, and it works like a charm! Again, thank you!

 

[JohnnyK81]

I'll grab some pics tonight when I get home.

Yes new drums (400-54 as mentioned) and springs. I'm not too concerned with the springback at the moment, more so the cable taughtness. I can deal with the spring issue later (Although they were calculated, so they should be correct!)

 

[jstroede]

I will grab some pics when I get a second.

Cables are the same length, because they started life as 12', and I cut the ends off, inserted them into the 400-54 style drums, and tightened them down .

I believe adding 33" of track, and 33" of high lift IS the same thing in this instance, no? Considering the garage door was at garage opening height before. I could be wrong!

I'll grab some pics tonight when I get home.

Yes new drums (400-54 as mentioned) and springs. I'm not too concerned with the springback at the moment, more so the cable taughtness. I can deal with the spring issue later (Although they were calculated, so they should be correct!)

I have no idea what you have, but trying to solve your problem when you have mismatched parts is a mess.

First of all, if you added 33", you have approximately 40" of high lift. If you want the exact number, measure from the bottom of the horizontal track to the floor and subtract the door height. That will give you the amount of high lift. A standard lift door has some high lift built in (approximately 7" for 15" radius track). Next, how did you come up with the cable length you used. They must be exact from side to side. There is a formula that you should use. How are you attaching the drum to the cable? Did you apply a button to the end of the cable after you cut them, or are you using a set screw on the drum? When installed, the drums should be clocked exactly the same on the shaft. If not, it will not work correctly. It really sounds like your cables are wrong because I get cable lengths of longer than 12', even using buttons (adjustable cable anchor requires approximately 9" longer springs).

I don't know what spring you have, but if it only has 7 turns on it, it is wrong. For a 106 lb door with 40" of high lift on a 400-54 drum, I get a single .234-2-37.5" spring with 11 turns.

John