High lift garage door, max height

[David C]

What is the maximum height I can achieve with a high lift garage door opener.

I am just finishing my 24x48 garage-shop building and have purchased (3) Wayne Dalton 9’W x 7’H residential fiberglass roll up doors. I specified the Liftmaster 8500 door opener. My ceiling height to the underside of the 5/8 gyp bd. is 117-3/4” (9’9-3/4”) and to the underside of the ceiling mounted fluorescent light fixtures is 114” (9’6”)

I told my local garage door supplier that I wanted the doors as high as possible. Last month his installer began work and I immediately noticed he had the horizontal door tracks about 8’1” AFF. He had also substituted a Liftmaster 3900, which is another story and I wouldn’t mention it other than I sent the installer back to the shop until these issues were resolved.

I telephoned Wayne Dalton, as I believe they supply the door lift system. It was a bit of a slug as I got a lot of people that did not understand the high lift question and offered confusing and illogical responses. From the web site I found the # for the Wayne Dalton Architect Support Line. The person I talked to understood my question immediately and was very specific in his response. He said I am limited to 22” of high lift or expressed another way the bottom of the horizontal track can be no higher than 8’10” AFF.

I conveyed this information to my local guy and after a few weeks he called this morning saying that he was unable to verify this information. He had talked to 5 engineers at Wayne Dalton and they did not agree and my door could only be 8’3” AFF. I do not how the door opening system is configured so I can not make my own determination from the parts to determine the maximum door elevation. I realize there is not much difference between 8’3 and 8’10 but it might matter when working with long boards, and there is a big difference, to me, between 8’3 and 9’6”.

Does anyone know the actual maximum garage door height, or how I would go about determining it on my own? And maybe even more importantly how can I prove it to my local garage door supplier.

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[nmk_61802]

I was told 14" required for torsion tube and springs. Here is what I did.

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=248194

 

[kramarj]

I'm not quite sure what you are asking. Are you talking about using different horizontal tracks?

If you are, you should be able to get tracks in a 10", 12", 15", and 20" radius standard. I believe you should be able to use all standard parts(with the exception of the cables) even with a 20" radius, we mostly deal with standard stuff- 10"-15" radius. Maybe somebody else can chime in on that to verify.

It sounds like you have approx 30" of head room, which should be more than enough to fit in the 20" horizontal tracks. This will give you the most height from the floor to the bottom of the tracks.

Hopefully this helps.

 

[David C]

Thanks for the replys:

nmk; I had read the post you referenced when researching for my garage and forgot about it. The photo posted by Pattenp is almost exactly what I want. I have copied the photo and sent it to Wayne Dalton and to the local dealer. Thanks for this.

Mr. Kramar; Thanks for taking the trouble to respond. You are giving me information that I don't know how to use, you may be assuming I know more than I do.

Maybe I can restate my question in a better way; Can I get my door close to the ceiling? Is there a limit to ceiling proximitiy due to the operator mechanism or some other component? (ie the drum has to be "x" in. below the ceiling or something like this.) Can the tracks you note be cut, adjusted or configured in order to get the height dimension I want? Or am I limited to using some some discrete dimensional increments? If I can only get the tracks to work in 2" height increments I can accept that.

I think one of the problems may be my guy either does not understand how to do this or he ordered the wrong parts and is trying to get me to accept what he ordered rather than spend more money. If I find out he made a simple error I might contribute to the added expense. If he, well I let that thought go.

In any case the reason I mention this is that the difficulty might not be one of getting the correct hardware, but I need to know that.

 

[kramarj]

I guess I do this everyday, so it makes sense to me the way I explained it. I found a picture to explain it better, I know the quality is horrible, but this way you can see it.



To answer your question, yes, you can get your door close to the ceiling, your door dealer can take measurements and send them to the factory to put the door almost directly on the ceiling. With our supplier, we send them the door size and the ceiling height and they figure it out from there. Since you already have the doors though, your best option is to stick with a standard size track(10",12",15",20" radius). Once you start getting into custom high lift tracks, your current springs, drums, cables, and vertical tracks will no longer be useful. They will all have to be replaced.

As for the opener I am not sure. I am not familiar with the Liftmaster 8500, so not sure what to tell you there.

I am terrible at trying to explain things, I am trying my best.

 

[David C]

Mr Kramar,

Your diagram helps; can the vertical track be adjusted in length before the radius track is installed. For example; if the 32"R track causes the door to be too high can I use a 20"R with a vertical track that is 11" longer (higher) to get me 20" + 11"=31" from the floor?

Or stated another way; I assume that the 12" radius is the min the door requires to turn the corner. Given that why can't I use a longer vertical track and keep the 12" radius track? (or whatever radius my guy purchased).

I purchased the doors and installation from a local dealer. He was supposed to supply and install the entire package as I showed him on site and described it. He charged extra for the high lift equipment and installation and I thought he was intending to supply it. I would like to get the proper equipment from the door mfg as you explained, but may have to compromise and go with your second option.

And thanks for your response, you don't have to appologize and I do appreciate your help.

As a result of your trouble I may go back to responding to posts for which I am more of an expert. I have been put off providing responses, responses for which I would have charged a considerable fee, only to have some guy say the exact opposite and the OP say that is what he wanted. So many people here, like you, make considerable effort to help others I feel obliged to return the favor.

 

[workhurts]

I'll post pictures and measurements of my set up when I get home. On my doors, they actually would ever so slightly touch the ceiling on the way up and the rubber would stain the ceiling. For the longest time I thought it was a stain coming through the paint until I really looked at it.

On mine, I was doing about a 13' ceiling and the builder just put it in so I wasn't researching it too much at the time. They goofed on pricing and only charged me about a $100 per high lift track conversion so I wasn't about to rock the boat.

Bottom line is that I don't think my doors can get any closer to the ceiling with the current curved track. Your door panels don't follow the curve exactly cuz curve vs straight panels.

I think your question about if you could just use a longer vertical track is legit but that might effect the springs you need. The longer the vertical the more support the door needs.

Off the top of my head, I don't think my doors in the fully open position are more than 8" from the ceiling. I also think the tracks need to be horizontal or even slightly lower at the end to keep the door from sliding back down (if you aren't using an opener).

My drums are literally 1/4" from the ceiling. I was worried about the opener install (prior version of the 8500). If you search for my threads you'll probably find some pictures.

 

[workhurts]

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=203925


This should have some track pics in it.

 

[jstroede]

The "safe" number for calculating high lift is to put the bottom of the horizontal track at 12" under the ceiling height, so high lift is ceiling height - door opening - 12". In your case, that would be 118 - 84 - 12 = 22" of high lift. Now in your case, with short doors using 4" drums, you can sneak in a little more, say 3" or so depending on the the track and hardware they are using. The simple way for this would be to use a 32" radius track, which when paired with a horizontal track that is 8" under door height comes to 24" of high lift. It can also be done with a 15" radius and an insert.

John

 

[jstroede]

That is all assuming that your lights aren't going to be in the way anywhere by the way.

John

 

[kramarj]

Your diagram helps; can the vertical track be adjusted in length before the radius track is installed. For example; if the 32"R track causes the door to be too high can I use a 20"R with a vertical track that is 11" longer (higher) to get me 20" + 11"=31" from the floor?

Yes and no. The vertical track cannot just be lengthened/shortened, I mean you can shorten/lengthen the vertical track, but only by an inch or two, any more than that, you are talking about lift in the door, which is where the custom tracks come in. This is where the factory comes in with figuring what it will take to make the tracks work(how long, how far off the wall, etc.), as well as what springs and drums it will take to pull the door up now that the door has lift.

Also, I just re read your original post. Going off of what Wayne Dalton told you, they offer a 20" radius horizontal track(or close to it) which would give you 8'10" from the floor- He said I am limited to 22” of high lift or expressed another way the bottom of the horizontal track can be no higher than 8’10” AFF. And you also said that your light fixtures are 9'6". SO, if you use the 20" radius track, you would only be left with approx 8" of room between the track and the ceiling.

I believe if you just do the 20" radius, you and the installer will both be money ahead in the end. You will have a door that gives you more clearance, without costing you a ton extra just to get the tracks custom made. And for the installer, he won't have to take a ton of time changing tracks and it won't cost him that much to order 20" radius tracks.

 

[David C]

John ,

If I interpret you response correctly my door, when retracted, would be 12" (nominal) below ceiling height. I would like my door to be 6" below ceiling height. The previous posters suggest that I can get the door close to the ceiling.

I downloaded the photos from the references in the previous posts that show the retracted door very close to the ceiling. I would like something similar.

Is the difference between your calc and the other responses and photos related to the specific Wayne Dalton door system or is there some other reason for the dimensional inconsistencies?

Can you elaborate on your definition of "safe number"?

Thanks for you trouble.

David

 

[David C]

More photos from Mr. Work Hurts.

 

[jstroede]

My numbers are from the bottom of the horizontal track. Your door and drums and such are all above that point. That 12" assumes the space the door requires to function as well as (especially) the space at the front that the drums require. As I mentioned, this is a safe number and we use that for all doors unless something else is requested. This means there is enough space for taller doors using much more high lift and require much larger drums and bearing plates. As I said, for a smaller door such as yours you can probably drop that number down to about 9". If you figure 9", 2" of that is the track, and about 3" is made up of the door above the track. That puts the door about 4" from the ceiling. That's pretty tight.

20" radius is only 12" of high lift. With standard verticals that are 8" shorter than the height of the door, that only puts the track at 8' off the ground.

John

 

[jstroede]

If someone wants to really maximize the height of the track, I just want to know the floor to ceiling measurement (as long as there are no other obstacles like the lights you mentioned. I have no idea where they come into play). I would build the track so the top of the drum is approximately 1/2" below your ceiling, and fill in the rest. That is generally how to maximize high lift as the drums are almost always the highest point.

John

 

[David C]

Thanks John!

 

[workhurts]

Just measured for you. Top of rail is 5". Bottom of rail is 7" from the ceiling.

 

[nmk_61802]

I was told 14" required for torsion tube and springs. Here is what I did.

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=248194

Here are some pictures of my completed install. As I mentioned in the previous post, I was told min of 14" from ceiling to bottom of track was needed for the door to clear the drum as it swept around the turn. What the door manufacturers don't say is that if you insert a section of straight track between two halves of the turns, it will lengthen out the turn and move the door further away from the drum at apex. This inturn allows you to get the door as close to the ceiling as possible.

 

[David C]

Thanks to you both.

Next task is for me is to get this info to be accepted by Wayne Dalton and my local dealer.

 

[NitroShark]

I got extra height by moving the drums under the top rails..


Shawn

 

[kramarj]

I got extra height by moving the drums under the top rails..


Shawn

I have never seen that done before. That is a great idea to squeeze out a couple extra inches.

 

[jstroede]

Here are some pictures of my completed install. As I mentioned in the previous post, I was told min of 14" from ceiling to bottom of track was needed for the door to clear the drum as it swept around the turn. What the door manufacturers don't say is that if you insert a section of straight track between two halves of the turns, it will lengthen out the turn and move the door further away from the drum at apex. This inturn allows you to get the door as close to the ceiling as possible.

You don't need to do that to clear the drum. Clearing the drum and keeping it as close as possible to the ceiling are two different issues.

John

 

[jstroede]

I got extra height by moving the drums under the top rails..


Shawn

That works well on taller doors like yours with larger amounts of high lift. On shorter doors with only a couple of feet of lift, it doesn't work nearly as well. Looks good though.

John

 

[nmk_61802]

You don't need to do that to clear the drum. Clearing the drum and keeping it as close as possible to the ceiling are two different issues.



John

We'll have to agree to disagree. With roughly 30" above the door header to break back and clear the drums (like the OP) this was the best way to clear the drums w/o purchasing new larger radius turns.

I could not install the doors as some of the other pictures in this thread show as they clearly have 12-14' of headroom compared to my 10'.

 

[wssix99]

I told my local garage door supplier that I wanted the doors as high as possible. Last month his installer began work and I immediately noticed he had the horizontal door tracks about 8’1” AFF. He had also substituted a Liftmaster 3900, which is another story and I wouldn’t mention it other than I sent the installer back to the shop until these issues were resolved.

It looks like they gave you the "High Lift" option for your door but could have gone further up if they also ordered the "Low Headroom Torsion Spring" option. (It looks like you DID NOT get the later.)

http://www.wayne-dalton.com/residential/Documents/installation/High-Lift-Track-Supplement.pdf

http://www.wayne-dalton.com/residen...wHeadroom-FrontTorsionSpring-SUPPL-346431.pdf



I'm in the process of installing some Clopay doors in the same situation. It looks like they do the high lift tracks in certain height ranges to minimize customization. Looking at my Clopay set, it looks like their high-lift clearance goes anywhere from 12-16" from the ceiling, depending on where one's garage falls in their make-to-order range of measurements.

Fortunately, my vendor screwed up the order and shipped me tracks that are for a garage that is 12" taller than what I have. I chose to cut the tracks down a bit, which will allow me to customize things and get the tracks as high up as possible.

 

[David C]

This is not resolved and it appears that I will have to have door tracks 19" down from my ceiling.

I have sent some of the photos and written comment for the posts above to my GD supplier and to the home office. They say they will not install the doors as high as shown in the photos. I purchased a high lift kit and the closest they will install the top horizontal track to the ceiling is 19" (distance between underside of ceiling and top of track).

My local dealer says the Wayne Dalton engineer will not approve installing the track any closer to the ceiling. My dealer does not know why and he says the engineer will not speak with me.

Does anyone know why the door can't be installed higher? Is this a Wayne Dalton issue? I have heard a number of different stories from WD so I don't know what to believe.

I can tell them to take the doors back but it will hurt my dealer and I don't wnat to do that if I don't have to. Does anyone have any suggestions other than the nuclear option that is?

 

[nmk_61802]

This is not resolved and it appears that I will have to have door tracks 19" down from my ceiling.

I have sent some of the photos and written comment for the posts above to my GD supplier and to the home office. They say they will not install the doors as high as shown in the photos. I purchased a high lift kit and the closest they will install the top horizontal track to the ceiling is 19" (distance between underside of ceiling and top of track).

My local dealer says the Wayne Dalton engineer will not approve installing the track any closer to the ceiling. My dealer does not know why and he says the engineer will not speak with me.

Does anyone know why the door can't be installed higher? Is this a Wayne Dalton issue? I have heard a number of different stories from WD so I don't know what to believe.

I can tell them to take the doors back but it will hurt my dealer and I don't wnat to do that if I don't have to. Does anyone have any suggestions other than the nuclear option that is?

If you look at my thread this is the same response that I got from Ideal/ Coplay doors. From the conversations that I had with them it was due to the location of the springs & drum. I was told that it may contact them as it rolled around the curve, or there was a possibility that if the door was installed to tight to the ceiling it would hit there if the door flexed. Since the doors are not 100% rigid and do flex during operation, they were unwilling to accept the liability of a close tolerance installation.

Ultimately this is where I gave up and proceeded with my own plan.

 

[pattenp]

I've read all the posts but I'm at a bit of a loss over this whole thing. What does being a Wayne Dalton door have to do with any of this. My door is a Wayne Dalton, my high lift is a generic off the shelf high-lift conversion using a Liftmaster 3800. How high you lift the door is a matter of the vertical track length and getting the correct size drums to wind up the longer cables. My horizontal track is 9" off the ceiling and could have been closer as Nitro did with the drums under, but I have strip lights the door has to clear.

 

[David C]

Mr. Patten,

I guess my answer to your question: "what does Wayne Dalton have to do with this" is I don't know for sure.

What I thought was that WD provides the entire assembly and it is all designed to work with their door. I realize that they probably don't mfg the track but that they provide, install, and warantee the entire package. In any case they apparently refuse to sanction the higher lift. Maybe this statement from WD needs parsing.

What you have is what I want. 'My horizontal track is 9" off the ceiling.'

Mr. Patten: If you have any suggestions I would like to hear them.

I think nmk's post immediately above finally registered with me. Wayne Dalton prob does not want to cut it close or spend any time adjusting the system. If you need 4" clear 12" clear will be safer. One of the GD installers kind of said the same thing.

I am going to research your posts re: "your own plan". Maybe that will help me.

In any case suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[nmk_61802]

I've read all the posts but I'm at a bit of a loss over this whole thing. What does being a Wayne Dalton door have to do with any of this. My door is a Wayne Dalton, my high lift is a generic off the shelf high-lift conversion using a Liftmaster 3800. How high you lift the door is a matter of the vertical track length and getting the correct size drums to wind up the longer cables. My horizontal track is 9" off the ceiling and could have been closer as Nitro did with the drums under, but I have strip lights the door has to clear.

To me it sounds as though the OP purchased new doors and tracks with a HL option from Wyane Dalton. Hence the references to WD. I had the same issues from Ideal/ Coplay

 

[wssix99]

My local dealer says the Wayne Dalton engineer will not approve installing the track any closer to the ceiling. My dealer does not know why and he says the engineer will not speak with me.

This is 100% ********. See the link I posted above. Wayne Dalton sells parts off the shelf that will get you with a few inches to the ceiling. You just pair a high lift kit with a low headroom kit.

If I were you, I'd call Wayne Dalton directly to get the word from their tech support people. I think your dealer ordered the wrong parts and they don't want to eat the cost for getting and installing the right thing for you.

 

[David C]

wssix99, If I were you, I'd call Wayne Dalton directly to get the word from their tech support people. I did call them.

I talked to their home office customer service representative in Ohio. I related all of the facts, copied photos and posts from this thread, and forwarded them to her. When she called me back she left a message on my phone that she had talked to my local dealer and the WD divisional office in Union City and those two would work together. She said "my role is to get the parties together and help locate a solution." (sic) The two are going to work together and she said she was "confident that they would come up with a solution that would be satisfactory for you." (a portion of the message retyped from the recording).

After the message I talked to my dealer and he said it is possible to install the door in accordance with the photos I forwarded but that WD would not approve of the installation. I asked if I could talk to Joe at WD in union city and he told me no, they would only talk to him. When I asked him to explain why I they wouldn't accept the installation similar to the photos, he said he didn't know.

I think you may have hit on, at least, one of the problems "Wayne Dalton sells parts off the shelf that will get you with a few inches to the ceiling. You just pair a high lift kit with a low headroom kit. I don't believe he provided the correct hardware and the correct interpretation of their statement is that I can't have the installation I want with the hardware that has already been purchased.

No one for WD has actually taken the time to explain anything to me and I have talked to a lot of people at WD which includes waiting a long time on the phone. The most I can get is I can't have what I want and they won't explain why.

I looked again at the pdf's at the links you provided and I missed the one figure that shows exactly what I want. I am going to try again with your pdf's but I am losing hope.

wssix99 thanks for staying with me. The pdf's you provided are giving me confidence that I am not being dealt with honestly.

 

[pattenp]

I assume you are trying to maintain the Wayne Dalton warranty and doing a high lift beyond what their kits provide is not covered. The high lift on my door was done without any concern of any warranty provided by Wayne Dalton and I never even considered contacting Wayne Dalton about a high lift conversion kit. If you want the door to be as high as possible then just forget about Wayne Dalton and get a generic high lift conversion lit off the internet and find someone to install it. I don't know what else to say.

 

[David C]

Mr. Patten,

Thanks for your posts and suggestions. I ordered the garage door, hardware, lift and installation as a package. I don't think I can economically keep only the garage door as he would almost certainly charge me for the hardware that I couldn't use.

I have decided to move on from this dealer, I have too many concerns about him. He can pick up his doors and hardware and I will get someone else.

Thanks everyone for your posts and suggestions.

 

[wssix99]

wssix99 thanks for staying with me. The pdf's you provided are giving me confidence that I am not being dealt with honestly.

I'm happy to. Doesn't this feel a lot like dealing with a new car salesman?

For the past year, I've been going through a similar ordeal with Clopay, but fortnuately, they seem to have more details and also commercial track options for their residential doors. I had to escalate my questions through several levels of Clopay support to get my answers, but they came once I started dealing with the company directly and could press them with questions based on the documentation they have available.

Clopay will get me up to the ceiling in a straightforward way (I got the parts through Home Depot and they ordered the track 12" too long - but that's another story...) but I have some odd connection details to attach the tracks to concrete walls. I abandoned having an "installer" work on this for me because they just couldn't "get it." My walls are too far off the norm, so I'm doing this one myself. (I'm off to do more work on them now...)

 

[AndyL]

Unfortunately to get the warranty - you've got to follow their rules...

Yes - guys like me can get a door within 3" of the ceiling - but no manufacturer will do that. Too many variables, no manufacturers going to warranty custom fabrication. Try ordering your gmc truck with a Cadillac front clip - we know it fits - but gm won't do it for you.

With WD there can be some fun - their doors tend to run on the lighter side, springs and drum sizing in some combinations - just doesn't work, you could be in that scenario - and they won't engineer a spring 'close enough' - perfect or not possible.

 

[wssix99]

One other thing:

The high lift door tracks often have tracks that angle in to the room a bit. This causes the top of the door to be positioned further away from the track than the bottom. On my high lift door, the closest I could get the track to the ceiling is about 7" (with no margin of safety) otherwise my door would scrape the ceiling.

The manufacturers will put in a few more inches for manufacturing convenience, but it shouldn't be 19".

 

[David C]

Thanks,

I could compromise if I could understand why. No one will tell me. My dealer dealer doesn't know, Wayne Dalton, Union City, won't talk to me.

I have sever GJ photos of installations closer to the ceiling. I have the Wayne Dalton pdf's from you that show the installation of horiz tracks just below the drum.

 

[AndyL]

Try mount hope. Never dealt with union city myself.

If you want me really to stick my nose into it - send me a couple pictures and actual dimensions in a PM as well Door type and size and some shots of what's onsite. I'll figure out what they're having issues with.

Here's the basics of it - hardware with 400-54 drums tight to the ceiling - will leave the top of the track 12" down - that means the top of the door itself will be ~9" from the ceiling - wayne dalton likes their top fixtures mounted lower on the top section, so the breakover's higher - really you're talking about 2" possible 'fudge' room with a normal install (top edge of the door will protrude significantly above before it lays down as that top roller traverses the radius).

That said - it's sounding close - why don't you just have them pitch the back of the horizontals to get the door within 2" of the ceiling at the back. Keeps a standard install, unmodified, warrantable... keeps your clearance at the rear where it's needed...

 

[wssix99]

The things we do for a few extra inches...