High Lift Garage door question

[truck]

Ok, so like many others I bought a 4 Post lift (BendPac) and now in need to do high lift garage door. I understand all the parts I need based on all the super helpful threads here and have already lifted my track. I ran it as close to ceiling as possible (3in) and have manually heaved my door up and it tracks well. I'm also converting from extension springs to torsion springs. Here is my question that I haven't been able to find here.

Since I am so close to the ceiling can the torsion spring bar, springs, drum etc. be mounted below the horizontal and the flag bracket? So in between the curved track, flag bracket and horizontal bracket as in the area drawn in the picture.

Thanks,

Truck

 

[readhead]

The door is proud of the track and will probably hit the spring. I'm guessing you are trying to keep the track parallel to the ceiling. You may need to lower the track or at least lower the curved end.

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

With normal high lift there should be room. Looks like that conversion is home brew. So no room. You may be able to convert to rear torsion?

 

[Ironcrow]

Yes, you can drop the pulley a little with no problems with function. Just make sure the pulley and spring will clear the door edge as it goes up.

 

[truck]

Thanks for the replies. So sounds like there is no engineering or technical reason why I can't do it. As long as everything fits and doesn't interfere with the door. If I must I can drop the down from the ceiling to give room above horizontal. I was just hoping not do do it.

Second question. I noticed most folks angle their high lift portion of track away from wall instead of following same distance as lower verticals. I assume this is so hardware outside the door clears the wall. I don't have any outside hardware so it clears just fine. Is there any other reason that ya'll know of.


Truck

 

[mp4]

I'm thinking it's so you don't run the upper seal for the entire movement of the door.

 

[pbon]

Makes me wonder whether there is a reason why I have not seen this? I thought of it also. Typically you see the torsion bar above the tracks. Maybe a leverage (power) issue for the motor? I am doing something along the lines of this:

https://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instructions/garage-door-high-lift-conversion.php

Looks like it will put the top edge of torsion bar pulley drum about 1-2 inches from the ceiling, which matches up with the minimum clearance to ceiling for a lift master 8500. Mine should be in during the next week or two. Doing a cutout in ceiling so 4 post lift can go up with car on it, which means a traditional opener won’t work - it would be located in the cutout.

 

[Ironcrow]

I noticed most folks angle their high lift portion of track away from wall instead of following same distance as lower verticals. I assume this is so hardware outside the door clears the wall. I don't have any outside hardware so it clears just fine. Is there any other reason that ya'll know of.

Just clearance of whatever, probably interior framing or the shaft and spring etc. Again, no functional reason. If your installation has sufficient clearance with the original tracks following their slightly off-vertical path you may do that instead of adding the kink.

 

[wssix99]

Yes, you can drop the pulley a little with no problems with function.

"a little" is key. You can't go all the way because the rollers aren't at the exact edge of the door panels. As such, the ends of the door panels still out past the track as they to around the turn.

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

High lift doors factory engineered do not use standard drums. They use high lift drums. The outer diameter could be as much as 12"' not the common 4" diameter. Spring engineering also comes into play as you are no longer laying the door flat, requiring only minor spring tension to keep cables from popping off drums. Since there is always some weight on the springs, they usually Go bigger diameter as well as larger wire size to be able to balance the door correctly. The springs don't lift the door, they balance it. If you get it wrong, the door will be heavy to lift and want to shoot up when past half way. The extra room that is created by kicking the track assures that the sections will clear the drums when they turn the corner. There should also be bumper springs at the top to keep the door from opening too far.

 

[Tracs]

High lift doors factory engineered do not use standard drums. They use high lift drums. The outer diameter could be as much as 12"' not the common 4" diameter. Spring engineering also comes into play as you are no longer laying the door flat, requiring only minor spring tension to keep cables from popping off drums. Since there is always some weight on the springs, they usually Go bigger diameter as well as larger wire size to be able to balance the door correctly. The springs don't lift the door, they balance it. If you get it wrong, the door will be heavy to lift and want to shoot up when past half way. The extra room that is created by kicking the track assures that the sections will clear the drums when they turn the corner. There should also be bumper springs at the top to keep the door from opening too far.

Never seen a 12" drum.

 

[Jlbc212]

On any overhead door the vertical track is at a slight angle so that the space between the track and the jamb is greater at the header of the door opening. On a high lift or vertical lift door the degree of angle of the vertical track above the header should be greater. The OP can increase the angle of this upper section of vertical track to provide more clearance between the door and the drums (cable pulleys), thus providing the space needed to mount the torsion bar and springs lower.

 

[gnpenning]

No mention of height of the door or how much high lift. As mentioned high lift require a larger drums. A 4 inch drum will run out of cable space. Hi lift drums have a larger diameter that will taper down in size.

Where your 2 tracks meet the tracks should be further in the room. I can see too much of the adjustment slot showing on the flag bracket. The horizontal track upper bolts may need to be moved to different holes to allow the tracks move back in to the room. This will give you more drum space.

 

[MrSurly]

High lift drums, Full Vertical drums, there are a lot of different types. I have two high lift doors and the drums are about ten inches as I recall. The size is caused by the tapered design; they are made this way in order to alter the mechanical advantage of the cable as the door travels. With a regular door, the effective weight of the door decreases as the door is raised; the top turns horizontal immediately when it's raised, so the spring load gets lighter as the door goes horizontal. Because the spring is relaxing as the door is raised, the straight drum works well.
With a high lift, the first few feet of opening, the *entire* weight of the door is constant; the door doesn't get lighter until it turns the corner. With the high lift drums, the cable runs in a groove along the taper controlling the position of the cable and its "leverage" vs the spring. The leverage is greatest when the door is down, decreases as you open the door and when the top of the door starts going horizontal, that's the point where the cable reaches the straight portion of the high lift drum.

The tapered drum is required because a straight drum can't be adjusted to work with a fixed door weight through a portion of the travel because the springs are not a constant.

Besides needing to make room for the drums themselves, another necessity is clearance for the cable; with the tapered drums, the cable hangs very near the corner formed by the wall and the door track with the door closed. As the door is raised, the cable position follows the taper and moves both away from the wall AND away from the track, causing (on my doors) the cable to rub the top corner of the upper panel as it tilts. Because of this I have wished the track was even *farther* away from the wall.
The diameter of the drums requires a different spring mount as well as larger springs.
The picture of your setup indicates that you might need to make a few changes(!)

This pic: a full vert, a high lift,
And below them a standard drum.

Note that even the straight drum is built with a slight taper.

Edit to add pics of two 10x10 doors, both commercial, insulated, one is standard, one is a high-lift.