High lift tracks

[workhurts]

I just had the builder install some high lift tracks. The balance point seems a bit different than a traditional door. I'm about to install some liftmaster 3800 openers and was hoping not to run into issues.

For those of you with high lift tracks (mine go up to about 12') with regular 8' doors. Are they balanced at every height? The added weight of a few vertical door panels really seem to want to bring the door down and it doesn't stay up on 2-3 panels have gone horizonal.

 

[jayoldschool]

Springs aren't set up correctly (or, wrong springs and/or drums).

 

[pattenp]

I have the identical high lift, 8' door, 12' to the horizontal. The door stays put at half open to slightly above half open, at below half the door will close on its own. The door weight at closed is about 15 to 20 lbs. When fully open, two panels are vertical, one panel on the turn and two panels on the horizontal.

Edit: To clarify we are talking about a 8' tall door, right?. My door is a 8' X 18'

 

[workhurts]

What are we saying is the half way point? The half way of the door opening, as in 4' off the ground? My door is a 16'x 8'.

There's no way it stays open on its own unless it is 8' off the ground. ie, half the door is veritcaly and the other half is horizontal.

I'll take a picture tonight and post the spring and drum.. I want to make sure this thing was done right before I go mess with the opener.

 

[pattenp]

With the opener unlatched, my door will stay open at 4' to 5', half of the door opening. Below 4' or when the top panel becomes vertical it will start closing on its own weight.

View media item 15215

 

[BudgetRacing]

You mean you originally had a standard lift door and just changed the tracks?

 

[workhurts]

Nope. Originally installed as high track. What I was saying was that at the old place with regular doors they stayed up anywhere above 3-4'. In the new place they don't stay up till the door is about 8' up. The door stays up when 2-3 of the panels are horizontal.

I actually called around and balance point seems to vary from door to door and I stalker to installer. I'm gonna have them come back out and see if they can get the balance point a little lower.

Just moved so can't find anything but my next step is finding a scale and weighing the door. I'm told that thr liftmaster 3800 doesn't like lifting more than 20 lbs of weight.

 

[imnutz]

A correctly engineered counterbalance will allow a door to stay put anywhere along its travel, unless there is a section that is heavier or lighter than the others (glass). cable length, correct drums, and spring size are critical to good balance. A 3800 should handle some out-of-balance condition, but remember that an operator is not a substitute for a poorly balanced door - it should work no harder than you raising and lowering the door by hand.

 

[darkk]

We have two 9wx10h Hampton insulated doors w/LM3800 openers, high lift tracks to 12'9".
Ours will stay where ever we let go of them when disconnected from the opener.

 

[DynoDave]

Springs aren't set up correctly (or, wrong springs and/or drums).

My 8'H x 9'W opens into scissor trusses via high lift tracks. Stays put like it should.

 

[AndyL]

I've got a bright shiney nickle that says they goofed on the cable length (Which happens oh so very often)

 

[sgdawson]

You need a set of cable drums like this:

Here's a description of how they are installed.

The springs lose tension as they unwind - that works ok when the top of the door starts out near the curved section of the track because part of the weight gets "laid off" on the horizontal track as the door rise. In effect, as the spring gets weaker the door gets lighter so they stay balanced. In a high rise door, the door goes straight up for a few feet so at first the spring is getting weaker but the door is not getting any lighter. The high lift drum has a spiral section that changes the leverage for the spring so that even as it is unwinding the tension on the cable is enough to support the door. The cylindrical part of the drum kicks in when the top of door reaches the horizontal portion of the track.

I have a 7 foot door on a track that goes up to 10 feet. It is balanced and will stay put at any height. This makes it easier for the opener (and me during a power outage).

 

[workhurts]

A quick update. So they had a guy come out who didn't seem to have any expertise to do anything other than wind the spring a bit more ... so now the door likes to launch itself like a ride at your favorite amusement park (well, not that bad, but you get the picture).

I'd like to understand what part cable length plays in all of this?

The drum looks exactly like what's in the picture. On the 16' x 8' door, they have two 39" gold springs. On the single door 8'x8', they have a 31" yellow and 40" white. No clue what any of that really means.

You'd think a 'professional' installation would mean you get a properly balanced door. The lead tech that was supposed to come out never made it so they sent a junior level person out instead (nice enough guy but no where near the experience to actually do anything).

Is there something I should be looking at to help guide them to a solution. Perhaps I'll get lucky on the senior tech can figure out what's going on.

They are amarr doors. Next step for me is to get model numbers, call manufacturer and get exact weights.

 

[AndyL]

I'd like to understand what part cable length plays in all of this?

Cable length sets the point at which the torque starts to fall off...

Basics of it, when the top roller stops running vertically and starts rolling back in the horizontals, your cable should be rolling off the raised section of drum and onto the flat. Reasoning, as the top panel runs into the horizontal tracks, you're loosing that weight off the cables (as its largely supported by the tracks, not the cables, thus you need to be on the flat of the drum.

Its a quick visual check, but 90% of the time wrong... even 6" out makes a wild difference to how the door balances.

I've made the rants about the current state of the door industry, I'll leave it alone

So... grab your ladder, have a look - bring sharpie, mark across the drum where the last rise ends, bring the door up, and visually check, is the cable just starting onto the flat of the drum, as that top roller hits the apex in the track.

 

[pattenp]

.................
I'd like to understand what part cable length plays in all of this?

A cable that's too long will be wound down to the second or third larger diameter step on the drum which will negate the purpose of the higher step of the drum. The cable needs to be short enough to start lifting the door on the largest diameter step of the drum.

 

[sgdawson]

Did Amarr source everything? The drum, cables and springs need to match the door (height/weight) and track height. The only field adjustment is the spring pre-tension and even that is spec'd in the instructions.

Sounds like your 'professional' installer needs help. Calling the factory sounds like a good idea.

Good luck.

 

[BudgetRacing]

A cable that's too long will be wound down to the second or third larger diameter step on the drum which will negate the purpose of the higher step of the drum. The cable needs to be short enough to start lifting the door on the largest diameter step of the drum.

No it doesn't. The post above you is correct. The cable should start to wrap on the flat part of the drum as the door is about to roll over the middle of the radius. Every door is different and the cable length depends on the amount of high lift and the radius of the track.

 

[BudgetRacing]

Did Amarr source everything? The drum, cables and springs need to match the door (height/weight) and track height. The only field adjustment is the spring pre-tension and even that is spec'd in the instructions.

Sounds like your 'professional' installer needs help. Calling the factory sounds like a good idea.

Good luck.

This is true. It is very likely you got the wrong springs or cable length. Check to see where in the door travel the cable starts to wrap on the flat part of the drum. If it is near the middle of the radius of the upper track then the springs are wrong.

 

[pattenp]

No it doesn't. The post above you is correct. The cable should start to wrap on the flat part of the drum as the door is about to roll over the middle of the radius. Every door is different and the cable length depends on the amount of high lift and the radius of the track.

I wasn't talking about the point at which the cable starts to wind on to the flat part of the drum. With the OP's door being 8' with a high lift to 12' the drum should not be starting with a couple or three winds of the cable on it. The drum should only start out with a partial wind to may be one wind. I totally agree with what you are saying about having the proper length cable depends on the door set up.

 

[AndyL]

We all know the manufacturers have their days, same with the office folks unfortunately field staff no longer rememeber... floor to shaft +63" -h/l... thus its rarely fixed when they 'adjust to fit' onsite.

Its a really simple check, anyone can do it...

 

[imnutz]

Get the door weight, door height, drum #, floor to centerline of shaft, floor to bottom of horizontal track, pm it to me and i will run the program on it and can give you the exact spring size and cable length for you door - I can even send you the correct parts.

 

[jw1968]

With the opener unlatched, my door will stay open at 4' to 5', half of the door opening. Below 4' or when the top panel becomes vertical it will start closing on its own weight.

View media item 15215

pattenp, I am putting up my door myself(10'wx7'h door,9' ceiling, about 12" extra lift) , and I have windows in the top section as you do, and will have handles on the second panel from the bottom. Sooo..., my door sales place said to wedge cut the vertical rail just above the third section to get the sections away from the top jamb before the window frame or handles hit. I was wondering if you could post a couple of pics from the side so I can see what your door frame looks like.