I've seen a few gas stations around me our advertising ethanol free gas, but have not seen anything higher than 87 octane. Most of my vehicles require at least 89 and my bike and truck requite 90 or higher. So stay with the high octane ethanol **** or switch to the 87?
High Octane or No Ethanol?
- Thread starter MDSPHOTO
- Start date
Heel2toe
Well-known member
Why the hate on ethanol? If your truck or bike requires at least 89 then don't put in 87 octane and expect them to like it. Chances are you will experience pre ignition or at the very least you'll put your knock sensor to work and the'll pull timing accordingly.
Everyone hates on ethanol fuels as it shrinks rubber seals and causes all sorts of issues with small engine equipment. But I don't think its as bad as people make it out to be.
What years are these vehicles as most things these days are mapped to accommodate at the very least e10 so if you must run fuel with no ethanol bc you hate it then the vehicle is also going to run richer than it should be running. Of course if your bike has a carb then who knows how its jetted. Regardless at the end of the day ethanol is used as an octane booster. Typically you want higher octane fuel at least at the pumps its going to have ethanol in it as almost everything else has been banned by the EPA.
Everyone hates on ethanol fuels as it shrinks rubber seals and causes all sorts of issues with small engine equipment. But I don't think its as bad as people make it out to be.
What years are these vehicles as most things these days are mapped to accommodate at the very least e10 so if you must run fuel with no ethanol bc you hate it then the vehicle is also going to run richer than it should be running. Of course if your bike has a carb then who knows how its jetted. Regardless at the end of the day ethanol is used as an octane booster. Typically you want higher octane fuel at least at the pumps its going to have ethanol in it as almost everything else has been banned by the EPA.
kd3pc
Well-known member
Plenty of legitimate reasons to avoid ethanol like the plague.
IF your vehicle is fuel injected, chances are it will be fine on the lower octane pure gas, as the injection unit and computer are going to adjust mixture and timing to make best use of what it sees passing through. A lot has been written about high-test being a waste of money in most applications.
Carbs - stay with the pure fuel, as the carbs and the fuel system will be affected. And are cumbersome and expensive to clean and repair.
H2T, it is as bad as people say it is. Just research the testing and findings that have been submitted to the EPA, to no avail. The ethanol/political lobbies are far stronger than the others.
IF your vehicle is fuel injected, chances are it will be fine on the lower octane pure gas, as the injection unit and computer are going to adjust mixture and timing to make best use of what it sees passing through. A lot has been written about high-test being a waste of money in most applications.
Carbs - stay with the pure fuel, as the carbs and the fuel system will be affected. And are cumbersome and expensive to clean and repair.
H2T, it is as bad as people say it is. Just research the testing and findings that have been submitted to the EPA, to no avail. The ethanol/political lobbies are far stronger than the others.
Heel2toe
Well-known member
Yes agreed if the carbs fuel injected the differences will be automatically adjusted. With carbs yeah it won't be able to automatically adjust so it could pose more of an issue. And people say that ethanol gunks things up, if it has a rubber seat that'll swell and starve the engine of fuel and all that good stuff.
In MA we've had e10 for years now and its never really posed an issue for me with my small engines. But I make sure when they're stored that the tanks and carb are dry.
I've recently been doing a lot of small engine repair and the most common thing is a gunked up carb. But I think if gas is sitting in the carb for an extended period of time its gunna gunk it up anyway.
Im hesitant to say this as Im now going to be labeled as an ethanol nutswinger but I've done way too much research on ethanol over the years and you can find studies that say one thing and another study that completely contradicts the other study. And don't even get me started on the net positive vs net negative energy argument.
I daily drive my non flex fuel compliant car on e85 and have done so for the past 5 years now. My rubber fuel lines are fine fuel filter is fine injectors are fine fuel pump fine everything that was supposed to get ruined hasn't. Im not saying ethanol can't cause those problems; I just don't think its as bad as people make it out to be.
Its funny because Im now into small engines, I find working on them quite relaxing and of course in that world ethanol is the devil. But what I really love is racing my car and as far as Im concerned larger injectors and a tune netted me 40whp and 70ft/lbs back on the stock turbo due to the higher octane and cooling properties that the fuel offers.
I don't want to derail the thread so back to my original question from the OP. Why the hatred towards e10?
In MA we've had e10 for years now and its never really posed an issue for me with my small engines. But I make sure when they're stored that the tanks and carb are dry.
I've recently been doing a lot of small engine repair and the most common thing is a gunked up carb. But I think if gas is sitting in the carb for an extended period of time its gunna gunk it up anyway.
Im hesitant to say this as Im now going to be labeled as an ethanol nutswinger but I've done way too much research on ethanol over the years and you can find studies that say one thing and another study that completely contradicts the other study. And don't even get me started on the net positive vs net negative energy argument.
I daily drive my non flex fuel compliant car on e85 and have done so for the past 5 years now. My rubber fuel lines are fine fuel filter is fine injectors are fine fuel pump fine everything that was supposed to get ruined hasn't. Im not saying ethanol can't cause those problems; I just don't think its as bad as people make it out to be.
Its funny because Im now into small engines, I find working on them quite relaxing and of course in that world ethanol is the devil. But what I really love is racing my car and as far as Im concerned larger injectors and a tune netted me 40whp and 70ft/lbs back on the stock turbo due to the higher octane and cooling properties that the fuel offers.
I don't want to derail the thread so back to my original question from the OP. Why the hatred towards e10?
bobcatdan
Well-known member
Around here, premium is the only way to get ethanol free gas. I haven't seen ethanol free 87 in years, one place has pure 89 mid grade.
gnpenning
Well-known member
I've noticed a drop in fuel economy with e85. I have several vehicles I don't drive as often as others, e85 degrades much faster causing issues. I like keeping a full tank for condensation issues but letting it sit for any time I create more issue's.
As mentioned the lobbyist have more power, even with know problems. It's all about money and not what is good for the customer.
As mentioned the lobbyist have more power, even with know problems. It's all about money and not what is good for the customer.
Richard Cranium
Well-known member
Same here, just premium that is ethanol free. Have not seen any thing else with out it.
bczygan
Well-known member
Same here.
Heel2toe
Well-known member
e85 will absolutely yield lower MPG's. You need to add about 30% more fuel to run on e85 relative to non ethanol based fuels. That translates to a decrease in miler per gallon by about 30% however it's typically not that bad since the engine can run a little bit leaner safely with the ethanol.
But you are absolutely right about condensation posing an issue with the ethanol as its hydrophilic meaning it attracts moisture and actually mixes very well with it.
Heel2toe
Well-known member
^Yes, thank you! And that's why i was trying to determine why the hatred towards ethanol? I know what everyone says and Im not trying to argue for or against that.
But as you said at the end of the day the recommended minimum octane rating from the manufacture is exactly that, i.e what the manufacture recommends you run. If it calls for 89 or 91 or whatever then run it.
And on the flipside if it calls for 87 then no sense in running 89 or 91 or 93. Its doing more harm than good. The higher the octane the slower it burns and will result in higher cylinder temps. You're not going to get better performance as the car isnt tuned for siad fuel. The added performance comes from being able to advance the ignition timing and if applicable the ability to run more boost without getting pre ignition.
But as you said at the end of the day the recommended minimum octane rating from the manufacture is exactly that, i.e what the manufacture recommends you run. If it calls for 89 or 91 or whatever then run it.
And on the flipside if it calls for 87 then no sense in running 89 or 91 or 93. Its doing more harm than good. The higher the octane the slower it burns and will result in higher cylinder temps. You're not going to get better performance as the car isnt tuned for siad fuel. The added performance comes from being able to advance the ignition timing and if applicable the ability to run more boost without getting pre ignition.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
100% rubber hoses and seals went out shortly after WWII !! The most common synthetic based rubber components are made if Viton, Neoprene or Hypalon. These all can with stand 10% ethanol.
The big problem in small engines as well as marine engines, is the "cleaning" action that alcohol has on things already in the tanks. Some particles are loosened up and then get caught in the small passages in the carb. I will say, that small engines that are not run frequently, should be stored with an empty tank AFTER running the fuel out of the carb. "Do what I say ...", because I almost never run my outdoor equipment dry before winter !
Some people swear there is a measurable fuel economy difference between pure gasoline and E10. I have yet to see "real world" proof.
As for the original question .... IMhO, stick with the higher octane, even with the ethanol.
In my experience the main problem is water absorption. Addition of 99% isopropyl takes care of that.
The damage caused by ethanol is often over-stated. I know of several people who have switched to e100 in their older muscle cars with little more than re-tuning. Would do it myself if it was available nearby.
In my experience the main problem is water absorption. Addition of 99% isopropyl takes care of that.
The damage caused by ethanol is often over-stated. I know of several people who have switched to e100 in their older muscle cars with little more than re-tuning. Would do it myself if it was available nearby.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
First there is no such thing as 100% pure alcohol. It will always absorb some moisture out of the atmosphere. E90 is about the most that is practical.
It takes a fair amount of re-tuning to get an engine to run on E90. Must easier on a turbocharge EFI engine than on naturally aspirated carbureted engine. WIth a turbo, you can usually just turn up the boost. Other engines usually need new high compression pistons.
justanengineer
Well-known member
If your vehicles are semi-modern and stock then realistically you shouldnt see a major difference or damage caused either way, so I'd try several tanks of each and see which gives better mileage. Running a lower octane and being ethanol free should each give the fuel a slightly higher energy density vs the alternative and let you get better mileage, however the ECM fuel maps could cause a mileage drop too so never know until you try.
jdlong
Well-known member
I did process piping design for ethanol plants several years ago. The way I remember it was the final process was to send it through a mole sieve which removed all of the remaining water making it 200 proof alcohol. This all happened within sealed vessels and piping. Benzine was added after the mole sieve to keep the 200 proof from sucking in water when it became exposed to the atmosphere.
SILVERPLATE
Well-known member
I am able to buy 110 octane leaded gas a few miles for my 1964 Studebaker Avanti R2, it loves this stuff. Huge difference in starting with ease, idling and I more pep. It ain't cheap!
Last edited:
ALinCarolina
Well-known member
There are several stations around here that carry non-ethanol. I use regular e10 in my cars but my boat motor has never seen anything but non-ethanol. I have the PureGas app on my phone which will help you find ethanol free.
tractordude
Well-known member
I'm on the other side of the state. All the 100% gas around here is 91 octane, 87 & 89 is 10% or more ethanol.
matt_i
Well-known member
From running carbed marine engines the ethanol seems to have an affinity for moisture which then turns to gum.
I try to make the last fill of the season on 91.
I think small engines have issues with same.
Fuel injection, rather by the pump action or the injector orifice or simply more flow when running, don't seem to have many issues.
I try to make the last fill of the season on 91.
I think small engines have issues with same.
Fuel injection, rather by the pump action or the injector orifice or simply more flow when running, don't seem to have many issues.
Yeah, yeah, only sold in Brazil and not truly 100%. Only e85 station within 100 miles from me that sell it is for state vehicles.
Don't think my GTO would pass as one
Dagny
Well-known member
Of all the things in the world that will burn why burn food.
tractordude
Well-known member
+10 ^^^^^^^. Makes for a great hidden farm subsidy program and program that only survives with massive tax money as the subsidy.
Then add insult to injury.......the ethanol deal did not pass economics when oil was $100 a barrel ....now at current prices it makes even less sense.
Last edited:
Catmochanic
Active member
I was in a similar situation as the OP, everything around here even the high octane has at least 10% ethanol. Just bought a brand new Stihl weedwacker (still have the new tank filled with their "motimix" 93 octane). Found a place nearby that has Puregas 89 octane. Ran that all summer and even though my lawnmower calls for 89, it seemed very lethargic and would have preignition upon shutoff when hot outside? I recently mixed my own home brew blend using 5 gallons of Puregas 89 with VP Octanium (8oz mixed in to the 5 gallons) along with 1.5 oz of Stabil. Figured I ended up with 92-93 octane overall. Poured that into my mower and WOW, what an improvement! Mower started up quicker and had much more power, even sounded happier! I will continue to run this mixture and also mix it properly with Stihl synthetic 2 stroke oil for my 2 stroke machines. So far I believe I have found what I am looking for to keep my small engines running problem free for years to come. Now the vehicles I own I don't mind running them on 87 with 10% ethanol... their computers will compensate for it, and their fuel systems are designed for it.
tractordude
Well-known member
I run a little repair shop, 80% of my small engine work is Ethanol problems.
The amount of fresh water used to make a gallon is crazy, I can't believe is stuff is still on the market.
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/413002/measuring-corn-ethanols-thirst-for-water/
I have a plant close to me, a engineer at the plant said its about 1 gallon of fuel to 3 gallons of water wasted. wake up people
The amount of fresh water used to make a gallon is crazy, I can't believe is stuff is still on the market.
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/413002/measuring-corn-ethanols-thirst-for-water/
I have a plant close to me, a engineer at the plant said its about 1 gallon of fuel to 3 gallons of water wasted. wake up people
Vote. One candidate want's to change this ****, the other not so much..
tractordude
Well-known member
It's not that, The people in this country need to learn that we waste our food and water to make fuel.
The media don't cover the issue.
Nestle food is pulling water from lake Michigan. California has no water, but they have a ocean right next to them, you do the math
What do you mean "it's not that."? How would the people have more power to stop this nonsense? I agree, the media is in somebody's back pocket, but whining on the internet is useless...Vote
I've done the math..we either vote 'em out, kill them, or STFU and take it...these are the options men have faced all thru history.
I've done the math..we either vote 'em out, kill them, or STFU and take it...these are the options men have faced all thru history.
tractordude
Well-known member
toyotadriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2010
- Messages
- 1,586
I run ethanol in all my vehicles and all my small engines including weedeater and chainsaws. Runs fine and has for YEARS. I also store my 2 cycle gas for up to 2 years at a time. Ethanol only. Works as good on the last little bit as the day I filled it. I also keep a "strategic gas reserve" on hand and store about 15 gallons of ethanol gas in good fuel cans. Usually rotate it every 2 years or so. Ethanol only. Runs just fine 2 years later.
Ethanol isn't the monster that it's made out to be and actually has some real benefits. It's a great solvent so using it helps keep the fuel system cleaner.
And, gas was going bad well before ethanol. For all the small engine mechanics saying that it's destroying carbs.....well I was a small engine mechanic full time for a few years WELL before ethanol was common. Main repair job we did was.....rebuild carbs. That was the days before ethanol was in fuel...but fuel was still going bad. I can remember carbs so gunked up that nothing would clean them....replacement was the only option.....and it wasn't caused by ethanol.
Ethanol isn't a bogeyman.
Ethanol isn't the monster that it's made out to be and actually has some real benefits. It's a great solvent so using it helps keep the fuel system cleaner.
And, gas was going bad well before ethanol. For all the small engine mechanics saying that it's destroying carbs.....well I was a small engine mechanic full time for a few years WELL before ethanol was common. Main repair job we did was.....rebuild carbs. That was the days before ethanol was in fuel...but fuel was still going bad. I can remember carbs so gunked up that nothing would clean them....replacement was the only option.....and it wasn't caused by ethanol.
Ethanol isn't a bogeyman.
Last edited:
tractordude
Well-known member
Your country waste's clean water to produce it. What don't you understand? 3 gallons of fresh water for 1 gallon of ethanol?
toyotadriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2010
- Messages
- 1,586
Your country waste's clean water to produce it. What don't you understand? 3 gallons of fresh water for 1 gallon of ethanol?
Don't care. We have plenty of water....unless you live in an area such as the arid west...and last I checked ethanol is produced in states that have plenty of water. So what that they use water to make ethanol? What happens to that water? Does it disappear from the face of the earth never to be seen again? Even if they dump it in a holding lake....it'll evaporate, go up into the sky, make clouds, and fall back to the earth as rain.
I do know that ethanol is a replacement for oxygenates in gas. We used to use MTBE...which does have substantial health risks. Ethanol has none of those health risks.
If I could run a car on water, I would do so. Ever notice how much of the earth's surface is water? There is a lot more water on the earth than oil.