High Octane or No Ethanol?

[CNGsaves]

I run a little repair shop, 80% of my small engine work is Ethanol problems.

The amount of fresh water used to make a gallon is crazy, I can't believe is stuff is still on the market.

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/413002/measuring-corn-ethanols-thirst-for-water/

I have a plant close to me, a engineer at the plant said its about 1 gallon of fuel to 3 gallons of water wasted. wake up people

^ ^ ^ THIS !!!!

Most people are completely clueless when "all the good" is touted when cities bend over backwards to "attract" an ethanol plant coming to town . . "with all these jobs" . . . yeah right.

I was flabbergasted when Natural Gas rich city of Hugoton, KS put in ethanol plant at same time they are selling off their NG for pennies-on-the-dollar to neighboring Oklahoma. All that water too to "ship out" with that ethanol.

Instead, no wasted water or burning of NG to produce ethanol . . . . IF . .
. . . city of Hugoton directly used the NG as CNG (compressed natural gas) and put in their own CNG pump.

America just doesn't get it. We subsidize ethanol and artificially drive up corn prices/food prices . . . . when instead . . . we could just burn NG as CNG and not ship out our abundance of NG as LNG to other countries.

/soapbox

 

[vavet]

You could use a mix of high octane and low octane with no ethanol. This would get you the octane you need with half the ethanol concentration.

 

[cheechi]

For small engines, I buy a can of the Husqvarna 50:1 premix every other season, its 95 octane and I add a little to each batch I mix and haven't had ethanol related issues in any of mine yet.

For cars and bigger bikes unless you already know not to use pump gas, it should be fine.

I have access to two stations that do ethanol free, one at 87 and one near the airport that can get you whatever you want, a barrel at a time in some cases. If you are near an airport also, ask around. I'm not an expert on this but I'm pretty sure there's going to be some demand.

 

[Showkey]

Ethanol isn't the monster that it's made out to be and actually has some real benefits. It's a great solvent so using it helps keep the fuel system cleaner.

And, gas was going bad well before ethanol. For all the small engine mechanics saying that it's destroying carbs.....well I was a small engine mechanic full time for a few years WELL before ethanol was common. Main repair job we did was.....rebuild carbs. That was the days before ethanol was in fuel...but fuel was still going bad. I can remember carbs so gunked up that nothing would clean them....replacement was the only option.....and it wasn't caused by ethanol.

Ethanol isn't a bogeyman.

I do agree gas going BAD has always been a problem.........put me through college as full time job 45 years ago.
Ethanol just makes it happen much faster........in hot humid conditions it not uncommon for untreated ethanol fuel to go bad in 30-60 days.....especially in small quantities in the float bowl. The fact that some people have not had a problem with fuel storage issues ........the problems are NOT not an absolute......there are many variables including luck.

The current small engine shop stays in business on ethanol fuel going bad has several well informed posts have stated. Many manufacture DO NOT COVER fuel gone bad under warranty ( - few will give one, one time repair as good will) this is very very common with generators, tillers or pressure washers as they are often stored for months.

As for cleaning carbs back in the day.......gunk HYDROSEAL was the disassemble and soak process.......that stuff was toxic and had a very distinct odor.....but ......it worked great !!!!!!

HYDROSEAL II is not the same formula.......likely a good thing for our off spring:

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Ethanol or not, running lower octane in something requiring higher, will run - usually poorer and worse fuel mileage IME,

the engine will try to adjust, but there is no such thing as free lunch.

The ECU can only pull out just so much timing and unless you have a REALLY advanced variable valve timing system, dynamic compression ration won't be reduced much. Static compression ratio can't be adjusted at all. If your manual says "** octane REQUIRED", run what it says. You really should only run lower octane fuel when the manual says "** octane RECOMMENDED".

For vehicles, running a higher octane rated fuel than what is required is a waste of money and fuel. Most small engine manufacturers recommend mid grade fuel.


Tommy

 

[GRX]

Nothing new. Makes one wonder why they did not catch on.
The images are 1960 and 1923, respectively.

 

[tractordude]

Don't care. We have plenty of water....unless you live in an area such as the arid west...and last I checked ethanol is produced in states that have plenty of water. So what that they use water to make ethanol? What happens to that water? Does it disappear from the face of the earth never to be seen again? Even if they dump it in a holding lake....it'll evaporate, go up into the sky, make clouds, and fall back to the earth as rain.

I do know that ethanol is a replacement for oxygenates in gas. We used to use MTBE...which does have substantial health risks. Ethanol has none of those health risks.

If I could run a car on water, I would do so. Ever notice how much of the earth's surface is water? There is a lot more water on the earth than oil.

Want to get rich? Invest in company's that provide water filtration systems. Your grandchildren will need them to get a clean glass of water in the future.

 

[d.mcfarland]

In this area all grades have up to 10% ethanol. The premium doesn't come ethanol free just because it's premium.

Im no expert in this subject but isn't ethanol higher octane and therefore more beneficial for the producer to add to "premium" grades in order to meet octane ratings?

 

[Worsedog]

With the threat of Hurricane Matthew, I figured I should at least check out my portable generator as it hadn't been run since the 2006 storm season. I stored it with a full tank of "real" fuel.

The only thing I had to do to make it run was clean the shut off solenoid in the bottom of the fuel bowl. It ran and pulled a full load on 10 year old fuel. I have worked on other small engines that had ethanol in them less than a year and they were completely gummed up.


In my 03 Cobra I noticed about 8-10% drop in fuel economy running the E10. My 02 Aprilia has a polymer fuel tank combination of the ethanol and its moisture affinity caused the tank to swell enough the bars would hit it at full lock. After about a year of using a non ethanol fuel the swelling subsided and the tank fits properly again. I also noticed an improvement in fuel mileage similar to the Cobra as well.

Just realized I never answered the question. Use the octane rating recommended by the owners manual unless the vehicle has been modified. There is no performance advantage to using a high octane fuel if the engine isn't designed for it.

I use the cheap **** in my F250 and the GF's Buick and the good stuff in the bike and the Cobra.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

My 02 Aprilia has a polymer fuel tank combination of the ethanol and its moisture affinity caused the tank to swell enough the bars would hit it at full lock. After about a year of using a non ethanol fuel the swelling subsided and the tank fits properly again.

Quite a lot of Ducati models suffered tank damage and leakage caused by ethanol fuel. They ate the cost on replacing the tank on my friend's Monster with one made out of an updated material. Time will tell. All fuel available in NJ is ethanol. The pro-ethanol people still swear it is absolutely harmless...

Tommy

 

[toyotadriver]

Want to get rich? Invest in company's that provide water filtration systems. Your grandchildren will need them to get a clean glass of water in the future.

Our water has never been cleaner.

In my area, I have a well that produces over 40gallons per min....and can do that even in a drought. I am surrounded by lakes and streams. You live in WI right? Isn't that near MN? Don't they call that the state of 10000 (that's ten THOUSAND) lakes?

Last I checked, the great lakes didn't appear to be drying up any time soon.

Oceans look like they are still full too.

We aren't running out of water.

My grandchildren drink out of the tap at our house. They seem to be quite healthy.

Don't think the sky is falling.........

 

[kd3pc]

Our water has never been cleaner.


Oceans look like they are still full too.

....

that salt water is really tough to drink, and even more $$$$$ to desalinate....and in CA they greens won't allow the brine to be put back in the ocean, from whence it came? So a multimillion dollar plant basically sits...dead.

SO, we should be well on our way in conservation of Clean water. But we won't ....

 

[Schurkey]

Plenty of legitimate reasons to avoid ethanol like the plague.

Aside from the economics of subsidized ethanol production, there is O-N-E reason to avoid E-10: Water. The big problem years ago was leaking underground fuel tanks that got "cleaned-out" when the station switched to ethanol-fortified fuel. Now it's more a matter of the alcohol pulling humidity out of the air.

H2T, it is as bad as people say it is.

I've used E-10 (It used to be sold as "Gasohol" around here) for thirty-five years. I've used it with Rochester, Holley, Mikuni, and Keihin carbs, throttle-body and port fuel injection; on cars, pickups, SUV, motorcycles, a boat, and small engines.
I had some trouble with fuel plumbing on small engines. I believe this is the crappy Chinese fuel tubing more than the alcohol.
I had the foam in my generator's fuel tank disintigrate. Again, I think this was a problem with the foam, not the fuel.
I had a shitload of water in my boat's fuel tank. This was directly after filling-up at the marina instead of a normal automotive gas station. I blame leaking underground tanks.

Short story: Thirty five years of using E-10 as my preferred fuel, and NOT ONE failure I can directly blame on the alcohol.

The REAL problem with E-10 is not the alcohol that they tell you is in there. The issue is the mystery ingredients--the toxic waste that they put in but don't advertise. It seems to be a regional thing--some places have the toxic waste and it causes fuel system problems, and some areas don't--like mine--and I have no problems.

Folks blame the alcohol, but it's really some other additive that's causing the problem.

In my experience the main problem is water absorption. Addition of 99% isopropyl takes care of that.

What does the isopropyl do that ethanol doesn't do? Both are useful to mix with water in fuel systems, both were sold as fuel system anti-icing additives in cold climates.

Adding isopropyl to E-10 is crazy.

Of all the things in the world that will burn why burn food.

Damn right. Turning topsoil into fuel is nuts. Without government subsidies and government mandates, the process would be economically non-viable. It's insane food policy, environmental policy, economic policy. Makes a fine fuel, though.

For small engines, I buy a can of the Husqvarna 50:1 premix every other season, its 95 octane .

95 octane using WHAT octane rating system? Motor octane number (MON)? Research octane number (RON)? MON + RON / 2 "Pump octane"?

First Guess: 95 RON, perhaps 89 or 90 "Pump octane".

 

[Theruse]

go to pure-gas.org to find ethanol free gas in your area.

 

[toyotadriver]

that salt water is really tough to drink, and even more $$$$$ to desalinate....and in CA they greens won't allow the brine to be put back in the ocean, from whence it came? So a multimillion dollar plant basically sits...dead.

SO, we should be well on our way in conservation of Clean water. But we won't ....

No one has said that there are no areas that don't have water issues. Arid areas in the west have ALWAYS had water issues. And, with the population explosion in those areas, it has only made the problem worse for them. That's probably one of two reasons ethanol plants are in areas of the US that have plenty of water.

But, as a nation we aren't even close to running out of water....and never will.

 

[94EG8]

And, gas was going bad well before ethanol. For all the small engine mechanics saying that it's destroying carbs.....well I was a small engine mechanic full time for a few years WELL before ethanol was common. Main repair job we did was.....rebuild carbs. That was the days before ethanol was in fuel...but fuel was still going bad. I can remember carbs so gunked up that nothing would clean them....replacement was the only option.....and it wasn't caused by ethanol.

Ethanol isn't a bogeyman.

I've done small engine repair for years on a small backyard level, but I also did it professionally for a year and a half about 3 or 4 years ago. Before ethanol I didn't see carbs turning green inside, I also didn't see fuel line breaking down and turning gummy inside the way I do now. I definitely saw instances before ethanol where carbs had to be replaced, but the frequency has drastically increased. I've also never seen so much water in gas.

 

[HeelSpur]

Got a 97 Lumina that started knockin' & cutting off right after the engine was started. Changed tp 100% gas and the problem went away. I've located all the stations that have this in my area so I know where I can fill up.
Like what was mentioned, that damn corn syrup will kill small engines.

 

[sberry]

I see people know as much as this as they do about engine oil.

 

[CJM8515]

Im very big into power sports, mostly atv's, dirtbikes and such. Before ethanol became really big and everywhere there werent too many issues. Clean a carb and be done with it. Whatever is in the ethanol additives in gas now destroys rubber parts inside carbs, fuel lines and so forth. It makes the lines turn hard and brittle, gums up the carb like you wouldnt believe and my personal favorite-turns the inside of the carb green and not much cleans it up.

Few years back I tried everything to clean out a carb and found the only thing that worked was $12/qt yamaha carb dip!

 

[kd3pc]

Few years back I tried everything to clean out a carb and found the only thing that worked was $12/qt yamaha carb dip!

We use ultrasonic cleaner now, and have good results without damaging the fragile (cheap) housings and such.

the old fashioned dips will dissolve a lot of parts/seals you don't want to.

YMMV

 

[rice rocket]

Of all the things in the world that will burn why burn food.

Most of the corn grown today is not sweet corn, and isn't edible by humans. It's grown because it grows in high density, and your government kickbacks are paid by the pound, not by the acre, and your govt doesn't care whether it's for human consumption or not.

 

[plout99]

Most of the corn grown today is not sweet corn, and isn't edible by humans. It's grown because it grows in high density, and your government kickbacks are paid by the pound, not by the acre, and your govt doesn't care whether it's for human consumption or not.

Field corn grown today is edible and consumed by humans it's used in thousands of food items it's also the staple ingredient for livestock feed. You are burning food with ethanol enriched fuel there by driving up the cost of meat and other items you buy at the grocery.

 

[rice rocket]

Sorry, I should restate.

Field corn is very unpalatable in it's unprocessed state, and eaten by literally nobody. The only reason we have so many corn products (i.e. high fructose corn syrup, corn based ethanol, etc.) is because of the powerful corn lobby, which has pushes for billions of dollars a year in farm subsidies. The only reason it's used in ethanol at all, or as a staple ingredient in livestock feed, is because it's been made so cheap through subsidization.


https://farm.ewg.org/progdetail.php?fips=00000&progcode=corn&page=conc&regionname=theUnitedStates

 

[kd3pc]

just go to http://poet.com/ and you can see the best spin on corn/ethanol the web has.

millions of dollars spent annually to promote the cause.

 

[Autonomous]

Cons: Ethanol ***** for long term storage, such as lawnmower or generator fuel. It is also hard on old school rubber fuel hoses. It also is less efficient per volume.

Pros: The high octane can reduce pinging, allowing for more advanced timing and higher compression. In modern turbo cars it allows for more boost.

WITHOUT any modifications my car picks up a 5-7 Horsepower and 7-10 ft-lb of Torque just by the computer compensating for mixing in a gallon of e85, resulting at about e20. Verified by a dyno.

WITH a custom tune on the computer it can easily pick up 25 Horsepower and 50 ft-lb of Torque at the wheels by running a mix that becomes "e30".



Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[30cal]

Post the dyno tickets..I want to see this

 

[cheechi]

95 octane using WHAT octane rating system? Motor octane number (MON)? Research octane number (RON)? MON + RON / 2 "Pump octane"?

First Guess: 95 RON, perhaps 89 or 90 "Pump octane".

You know that's a good point I didn't even look I just assumed RON + MON /2 like pump gas.

Here is the fuel. It doesn't say the test method. That said, if I have some fuel that has sat for a while and doesn't run right, I dump it, put in just the '95 octane' for 1/4 tank, and that saves me having to take apart carb or do anything else. It sits on the shelf for a while too without issue.

 

[Autonomous]

Post the dyno tickets..I want to see this

Just checked in, sorry for slow reply. Minor corrections as I was posting from memory: These are Vdyno numbers. The numbers are better than I remembered. The fuel was 91 octane vs 91 mixed to e25. I meant my model car, not my car, although I personally mix to e20 in my vehicle because it's a minor performance boost for free ( actually about 60¢ cheaper than the gallon of 93 that it replaced). Going to have to mix closer to e25 after re-reading.

You can fall down a rabbit hole of performance tuning discussions if you are remotely interested in such, be forewarned. [emoji3]

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10046


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Showkey]

Post the dyno tickets..I want to see this

Think this only applies to boosted engine............Not going to work on normally aspirated.

 

[DIC]

Fill 'er up with Ethyl!

 

[WVBrady]

Most of the corn grown today is not sweet corn, and isn't edible by humans. It's grown because it grows in high density, and your government kickbacks are paid by the pound, not by the acre, and your govt doesn't care whether it's for human consumption or not.

"Dent (Zea mays indenata)
Dent corn is often used as livestock feed, in industrial products, or to make processed foods. Dent corn is also frequently referred to as "field" corn. Either white or yellow, dent kernals contain both hard and soft starch that become indented at maturity...

Sweet (Zea saccharata or Zea rugosa)
Sweet corn is primarily eaten on the cob, or it can be canned or frozen for future consumption. Sweet corn is seldom used for feed or flour. Sweet corn is extra sweet because it contains more natural sugars than other types of corn. (Field corn contains 4% sugar at the same stage standard sweet corn contains 10% sugar.) Almost 50% of the sugar can be converted to starch only 24 hours after sweet corn is picked, so it is best to eat it fresh! "

http://www2.kenyon.edu/projects/farmschool/food/corntyp.htm

My grandfather always liked some early field corn for eating on the cob. It is not so sweet, but has a stronger corn flavor.

Edit: Sorry, hadn't read to the end of the thread.