High Solids vs 100% Solids Epoxies

[customfab4x4]

I know people here recommend 100% solids but I'm an engineer and like data points!

Is there any proof that a 100% solids epoxy is more durable than a HS (70% or so) epoxy?

I like the fact that HS epoxies have 1-2 hr pot lifes. I'm not sold that 100% is actually measurably better by any standards.

Experiences using both types of epoxy products?



Whole reason I'm asking is that I am considering the Devran 224HS as I know many people on this forum have used it with good results. But not sure how it is holding up in 5+ years compared to the 100% solids options.

 

[upjeeper]

have you been able to find an answer?
(i'm also an engineer)

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Theoretically, more mils thickness equals more protection. These two products put down at the same wet mils thickness will offer a different dry mils thickness as the high solids vehicle (solvent, water or hybrid) will evaporate or dissipate.

Frankly, I see more issues with preparation everyday than the negligible difference in product thickness that everyone loves to debate here.

I am sure Garage Guy or some of the other installers will offer a field perspective.

 

[AlphaGarage]

I'm a bit reluctant to say this, because I don't want people to slack off on prep, but most Issues we see are with mixing, specifically not thoroughly combining the two components and then having some unmixed material end up on the floor. That spot will not fully cure.

I don't think there's much durability difference between 22 and 25 mils, but there's quite a bit between 6 mils and 22 mils. All other things being equal, over time it will just take more traffic & wear to grind through more material than it will through less material. But usually all the other factors aren't equal, and 6 mils of a quality coating is probably better than 40 mils of low end stuff. 40 mils of something that doesn't adhere well will peel off near as quickly as 6 mils.

With a less than 100% solids coating the water or solvents need to evaporate for the coating to cure. To do that they need to migrate towards the surface and be exposed to air, as the molecules rise they form small tunnels. Initially the material simple back fills those trails, but as it cures the viscosity will eventually prevent the tunnels from being fully filled. The result is microscopic tunnels throughout the cured coating. Those will affect strength, durability and the ability to deal with spills.

 

[Edger]

G'day engineers,

I put down a 50% solids epoxy in many industrial plants and 100% solids also. The 50% solids needed a primer and two topcoats, was easy to apply, had an 8 hour pot life so you could stop for lunch and the two topcoats wore out over 2 years with heavy forklift traffic about one pass both ways every 10 mins to 30 mins average per 12 hr day. This is approximate, but I guess you could say about 36 times around a corner every day with half of those trips carrying several tons of Kenworth truck differentials and axles so there was a heavy wearing force around the corner.

The 100% solids epoxy had a pot life of about 20 minutes and I never saw any 100% solids epoxy jobs wear through with similar types of traffic and I put down many more 100% solids jobs. Typically they were two thick roll coats of epoxy the same wet thickness as with the 50% solids epoxy except that 3*285 microns wet (50%) dried as 428 microns thickness while 2*285 microns wet (100%) dried as 570 microns thickness.

So for the average garage with average use the three coat, 50% solids epoxy might last 60 years if you say a car applies one quarter of the abrasion of the heavy forklifts and is driven in and out once per day. If you said the abrasion was more like one twentieth for a car in a garage then the 50% solids would last 300 years. What would the 100% solids last?

Another consideration is visual appeal. The thicker the coating the nicer it looks. The 3 coat 50% solids system only hid the floor imperfections half as much as the 100% solids, two coat system.

Some other considerations are how easily it flows and self levels. Two 100% solids epoxies may differ in application with one of them heavy to roll and leaving a strong roller profile while the other one is easy to roll and flattens out more to leave a smoother, glossier surface. All epoxies are not the same. Some have very strong chemical resistance and are meant for coating steel in harsh environments, some have better wear characteristics containing more silica and are meant for floors.

I was unable to prove that the 100% epoxy I used on floors had better wear than the 50% if they were both used at the same dry thickness and subjected to the same wear, but I strongly suspect the 100% epoxy I used would have worn much better because it was formulated as a floor coating while the 50% epoxy was a general purpose epoxy.

Now given that theoretically epoxy could last for hundreds of years of abrasion on a garage floor and yet if the floor is poorly prepared the epoxy could lift in as little as 3 months what Scotty says about preparation makes a lot of sense and what Alpha Garage says about mixing is also very important.

 

[gatchel]

I vote for 100% simply based on the visual appearance.

 

[thegarageguy]

Tough to compare, because not all 100% solids are equal and some high solids epoxies may have specific solvents or ingredients that may have an actual purpose other that just to thin it out to make it easier for Joe the homeowner to use.

I think a bigger issue you should worry about is to make sure you have a good surface prep and proper application, rather than if one epoxy is better over the other. I doubt you'd see much of a performance difference, if any, It would be marginal in a residential garage.

 

[Kriilin]

Tough to compare, because not all 100% solids are equal and some high solids epoxies may have specific solvents or ingredients that may have an actual purpose other that just to thin it out to make it easier for Joe the homeowner to use.

I think a bigger issue you should worry about is to make sure you have a good surface prep and proper application, rather than if one epoxy is better over the other. I doubt you'd see much of a performance difference, if any, It would be marginal in a residential garage.

What he said, from a former industrial paint chemist (never employed by any company on these forums).

 

[munkey]

I prepped the hell out of my own floor (and two others) before applying high-solids epoxy + MCU topcoat. It is only a residential garage, but it's been over a year with zero defects noticeable. After mopping it looks the same as day 1.

The only negatives that I noticed were the excessive fumes (wife didn't appreciate them), and the fact that 100% solids definitely looks a little bit nicer when applied thick enough to take advantage of the self-leveling characteristics.

As a beginner, the extremely generous pot life was pretty useful; although, now that I have a little experience, I'm probably going to use 100% solids from now on just for the better looks and lack of fumes (unless I am on a severly restricted budget for some reason.)

 

[J_T_P]

Each has its own pros and cons. High solids for longer potlife and generally better adhesion as solvent can help "bite" into the substrate. Although over concrete with adequate surface prep, the difference is marginal. 100% solids for thicker films that will ultimately last longer because there is more film thickness.

 

[tncatadjuster]

100% solids = no lawsuit from fumes, at the business next door, or other trades on location.

 

[J_T_P]

100% solids = no lawsuit from fumes, at the business next door, or other trades on location.

That's a ludacris statement. If the paint is VOC compliant and meets the local regulations...yeah good luck with that lawsuit.

 

[tncatadjuster]

That's a ludacris statement. If the paint is VOC compliant and meets the local regulations...yeah good luck with that lawsuit.

Do you mean:
ludicrous |ˈloōdəkrəs|
adjective
so foolish, unreasonable, or out of place as to be amusing; ridiculous : it's ludicrous that I have been fined | every night he wore a ludicrous outfit. See note at absurd .

Or did you think I was quoting a musical performer?

There is nothing foolish about my statement, I'm speaking from experience only. This particular case took three years was settled through arbitration and involved a chunk of money. The high solids epoxy used, met all VOC requirements and still resulted in litigation.

 

[thegarageguy]

Unfortunately anyone can sue for anything these days..it doesn't mean they have a case. Not all products by manufacturers are 100% solids and not all are 0 VOC's. As long as it's VOC compliant and the contractor is licensed, trained and certified there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[porphyre]

Licensed contractor not having a problem...

Let me fix this for you...

Unfortunately anyone can sue for anything these days..it doesn't mean they have a case. As long as it's VOC compliant there shouldn't be a problem.

If someone got sued for putting down a floor and lost, they need to sue their lawyer for incompetence. UNLESS - of course - it was some screwy HOA deal. tncatadjuster "conveniently" left that fact out, if so.

 

[tncatadjuster]

Licensed contractor not having a problem...

Let me fix this for you...



If someone got sued for putting down a floor and lost, they need to sue their lawyer for incompetence. UNLESS - of course - it was some screwy HOA deal. tncatadjuster "conveniently" left that fact out, if so.

Things are not as simple as that. Not sure what you mean by conveniently left out. The suit involved my company, American Airlines, and the owner of the building, it started out as a demand letter in the amount 562K

The lawsuit was over the fumes that left the building blew across an open space, and were picked up by their air handler, thus entering their building. This resulted in a total evacuation and transport of 42 people to a hospital. I was found in compliance of all regulations, but the lawsuit was still in place. No medical bills were ever involved, as it was determined by OSHA to be "Mass Hysteria". Ended up settling for 250K. It's a much longer, convoluted story than I'm portraying here.

Bottom line for me is, 100% solids coatings when possible.

 

[Jaguar Fan]

No problem several years into the Devran 224HS floor in a residential garage with use typical for this forum. The extra pot life was the deciding factor for me as a first timer.

 

[Crawfish]

Sorry to continue the off topic discussion, but I'd just like to point out that a paint may be VOC compliant (which refers to its environmental impact, and does NOT mean zero VOC) and still might be unsafe to apply without a respirator.

So, you could have a VOC compliant coating that could, under the right conditions, make bystanders sick. There are lots of variables involved: ventilation, temperature, wind speed, wetted surface area, type of respiratory protection used (if any), etc.

The point is: you need to read the directions. Maybe not when putting together your kid's swingset, but a good idea when using a mixture that may be highly flammable and toxic.

 

[thegarageguy]

Listen, if you are worried about a little smell or whiny over sensitive neighbors, then get out of the business or go with tile.

BTW, 100% solids doesn't have a longer potlife. Solvents are usually what loosens them up and slows them down.

 

[munkey]

Listen, if you are worried about a little smell or whiny over sensitive neighbors, then get out of the business or go with tile.

I certainly bow to your superior knowledge of this subject material in general... but to call it a "little smell" is surely an understatement. Solvent-based epoxy fumes are certainly the nastiest -I- have ever been exposed to. I'm not saying the lawsuit is necessarily justified, but your comment almost makes it sound like the issue is merely some sort of offensive odor.

 

[thegarageguy]

Like I say to whomever complains.............IT SMELLS LIKE MONEY!

 

[tncatadjuster]

Like I say to whomever complains.............IT SMELLS LIKE MONEY!

It does to us now, but wait till it smells like money to a lawyer on the opposite side of the table.

 

[J_T_P]

O VOC does not mean no smell

 

[thegarageguy]

Ha! I can't really worry about it too much. Just note, I work in NYC and I deal with it every time. Most of the products I use barely have a smell to them. Our usual complaint is the smell of the solvents we use to clean our tools. Lets face it, there are people that are bothered by perfumes.

As a contractor, I have it written in my contract that their may be an unpleasant odor and that anyone with low tolerance to chemical odors should be clear during our installation dates.

Bottom line is that in our business, it's impossible to avoid chemical smells.....forewarn your client, have it written in the contract, have it signed off and get the job done.

 

[AlphaGarage]

I'd have to agree, promising no odor is just setting yourself up for trouble. We've never had any one complain about fumes from our product, but people have said that they did smell some chemicals. One of our contractors specializes in zoos & animal facilities, apparently chimps are extremely sensitive to chemical smells, so they get a lot of jobs in research facilities that use primates. But even with the low odor epoxies they move out animals in adjoining areas because some critters are just hyper sensitive - just like some people. And it's been mentioned before that there are folks who are even allergic to some of these coatings.

BTW A few months ago I was invited to see them install a floor coating in the new elephant area at the LA Zoo. The floor was primed and then the top coating was sprayed down in one coat, I think it was about 1/2 inch thick. Obviously elephants are pretty rough on any floors, the interesting thing is that when cured the coating is actually pretty soft, it feels like a cushioned floor, I thought that it elephant toes and lion claws would shred the stuff, but it's held up in other elephant and big cat floors for well over 5 years, pretty neat stuff. 2 components, mixed at the spray head under high pressure at around 170f, it's almost fully cured as it hits the floor.