Holey overfilled Zinsco!

[FordTruckWench]

I'm helping friends clean up their mess of an electrical system. Right now I'm running a bigger conduit to the garage. Also, they may be getting solar panels. The solar company may take care of upgrading the main breaker panel. Or we may have to do it ourselves first. Either way, I want to spec out the replacement.

See the picture of the wholly overfilled main panel. Previously it was even worse. I've already removed a 4/3 (no ground) rubber and cloth insulation cable that went to a subpanel that doesn't exist anymore. You can see pieces of it on the shelf to the left.

The box to the left is an automatic generator transfer switch with its own subpanel. It is not designed with knockouts for a large number of circuits: There are two small ones on top, one of which goes to the generator in the flex conduit. And there is a 1 1/4 "slot out" on each side. Someone drilled an additional one on the bottom to connect the furnace. All other circuits are spliced back at the Zinsco where they contribute to the tangle.

The conduits leaving the Zinsco are (left to right):
1) Generator box
2) Water well
3) A/C and what might be the dishwasher
4) An entirely too large cable going to an R/V hookup
5) Main floor and upstairs subpanels
6) Just an earth ground - the 4/3 above was here
7) Garage
8) Pool

Several of the subpanels are Square D Homeline, so I was looking at Homeline all-in-ones. However, none of them are set up for the large number of feeders we have here. However, several variations (HOM2040M200RB, HOM1624M225RB, & etc.) of outdoor rainproof Homeline main breaker panels would work. Their enclosures 3R through 8R and 14R all have the same configuration of knockouts. They have large knockouts on the left and right sides, two on the back, and another big one centered in the bottom.

My plan:

Lower the generator box a few inches. An SE type conduit body on the left slot out could then go straight back into a floor joist cavity. The major house feeds can go through here.

Locate the new Homeline lower than the Zinsco - low enough and centered such that the back knockouts can directly lead into a floor joist cavity. (That's where the existing conduit bodies exit.) I think the crawl space vent is lined up with the floor joists.

Run a new large conduit to the garage, and a combined conduit to the well and pool.

Questions:

The gray plastic flex conduit joining the two boxes - is this readily available?

200A or 225A? I've read that 225 is recommended for solar.

 

[rockwithjason]

That looks like seal tite and it should be available at the big box stores.

If solar is in the futuere a 225a panel is a good idea but you need to make sure the existing wire can support it

 

[theoldwizard1]

I wonder what is under the tape in those splices in the bottom right of the main panel ? I doesn't look like split bolts or Polaris connectors.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I hate those undersized overstuffed fire cans.

Good idea on replacement.

 

[G_P]

Looks like the 240 breaker on the left has had its tie bar and part of the handles snapped off. Not safe if you can flip one breaker only and end up with one leg still hot.

 

[FordTruckWench]

Looks like the 240 breaker on the left has had its tie bar and part of the handles snapped off. Not safe if you can flip one breaker only and end up with one leg still hot.

Yup! And thus we also don't know the rating. (I've read that Zinsco color coded their breakers so some image Googling may answer this...) It feeds an FPE sub with three 15A Stab-locs.

I wonder what is under the tape in those splices in the bottom right of the main panel ? I doesn't look like split bolts or Polaris connectors.

The defunct cable was similarly spliced. It used a copper colored rectangular loop (maybe 3/8 x 3/4) with a set screw in one end. It seemed like they were covered with a rubber boot in addition to tape.

BTW, the 4/3 was spliced to 8ga THHN fed from a 60A breaker in the generator switch box.

That looks like seal tite and it should be available at the big box stores.

OK!

If solar is in the futuere a 225a panel is a good idea but you need to make sure the existing wire can support it

I assume the solar company would be checking some of this out. Right now I'm suspecting that the SE wire needs to be replaced anyway due to age of the insulation.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Thats a work of art there!

 

[Lassen Forge]

Not to mention - it's Zinsco. Kinda famous for leaving you with a "warm feeling"...

I would swap that puppy out sooner rather than later... Google Zinsco and Failures...

 

[PatJ800]

We used to call them the "Zinsco no-trip." In addition to massive corrosion at the buss bar that has burned down countless houses since the 70's, the breakers themselves are completely unpredictable as to when (if) they will trip, or protect anything. So you have a breaker box with bad breakers, a bad box, and poorly installed/maintained. The trifecta.

One of the (very few) things in history that the UL has actually UN-listed.

 

[FordTruckWench]

The defunct cable was similarly spliced. It used a copper colored rectangular loop (maybe 3/8 x 3/4) with a set screw in one end. It seemed like they were covered with a rubber boot in addition to tape.

See the picture of the copper loops. They are marked ILSCO, D2917, and on the other side 3-14, CU9 and the RU logo.

I assumed the other splices were similar, but I was wrong! Further examination shows they are spliced with ... wire nuts (and a zip tie to hold the wires together). I can see a gray end on the biggest wire nuts.

Why the one set was different? Perhaps because it was copper to aluminum, while all others might be copper to copper.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yup! And thus we also don't know the rating. (I've read that Zinsco color coded their breakers so some image Googling may answer this...) It feeds an FPE sub with three 15A Stab-locs.....

So u have TWO of the worst panels in the world!

The FPE is arguably worse than the Zinsco because they were never tested or listed by UL- the UL stickers used were fradulently put on the panels and breakers!

Youre lucky you havent had any fires...

 

[Norcal]

What is surprising is that Zinsco bolt-on breakers are not that bad, it's a huge problem is there are no replacements available except used at prices that can cause a heart attack.

This was a neighbors panel after the house caught fire, not caused by that Zinsco though.

 

[CNGsaves]

^ ^ ^ What caused that then ?? Lightning ??

 

[Norcal]

^ ^ ^ What caused that then ?? Lightning ??

Radio on carport a few feet from that panel, one of the residents & a cat were in the house during the fire, both were OK.

 

[nadogail]

To sleep better at night, replace both Flaming Pacific Electric and the F**king Zinsco equipment.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Radio on carport a few feet from that panel, one of the residents & a cat were in the house during the fire, both were OK.

So lightning hit the radio?

If thats the case then it wasnt properly grounded!

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

To sleep better at night, replace both Flaming Pacific Electric and the F**king Zinsco equipment.

I like that: Flaming pacific!

 

[Dave Taylor]

I work for an electrical contractor in Nothern Califonia. We see the Zinsco/Sylvania brands as well as Federal pacific panels fail quite a bit and are sure to get the word out to all our customers whenever we came across these brands. Many of our customers say things like oh its fine, we haven't had any problems and its been in the house since the 70s. I found this forum because I am looking to put together some more information about them and the 2 photos above are great indications of what they look like when they fail. Any chance I can use your photos Norcal and Lassen Forge?

 

[walta]

^ ^ ^ What caused that then ?? Lightning ??

The bus bars behind the breaker fail to make a solid connection with the breakers. The bad connection starts arcing and things get very warm very fast. This is an all too common failure mode with Zimco panels.


Walta

 

[TheVodkaMan]

Wow..

 

[Norcal]

The bus bars behind the breaker fail to make a solid connection with the breakers. The bad connection starts arcing and things get very warm very fast. This is an all too common failure mode with Zimco panels.


Walta

Zinsco plug in breakers are prone to failure at the bus, early Zinsco panels used plated copper bus, it seems that they are more failure prone with the later aluminum bus, BTW, that Zinsco in the original post looks like a 200A model, being fed from both sides & separated at the center. Zinsco bolt on is more reliable, but you'll empty your bowels into your underwear when they tell much $$$ for used breakers for them, the ChiCom UL classified plug in Zinsco replacement breakers from UBI are almost as expensive though.

 

[alfredeneuman]

The FPE is arguably worse than the Zinsco because they were never tested or listed by UL- the UL stickers used were fradulently put on the panels and breakers!

FPE breakers were listed by UL.
Any changes, whether cosmetic, changing suppliers, or mechanical to them would cause them to be relisted (which is lots of $$)
Federal didn't report any of these changes.
When Reliance Electric took over the FPE name they audited the company and reported the discrepancies, which caused them to lose their listing for about 8 months.
The old UL label on the cb was yellow, and when they regained the listing it was magenta.
I was in the middle of a project when it happened