Home Automation Schema?

[ddawg16]

I'm starting my research on home automation products....

For the most part, one needs to pick a hardware platform and stick without in order to maintain compatibility with devices as you expand.

Teken has a tread going on the product he is using (mods should make it a sticky)

I'm browsing one site, Smarthome...they show to following systems.

Insteon
UPB
X10 (now obsolete)
Z-Wave
Zigbee

Some of the systems communicate strictly via house wiring...some are RF...some are Wi Fi...some are a combination.

So...who has any exposure to the above?

 

[rsanter]

May sound strange but I would do my own system that is PLC based and program the parameters I want myself
Currently I am looking at doing my own system at work that will be opto22 based

Bob

 

[1/2 Cup]

May sound strange but I would do my own system that is PLC based and program the parameters I want myself
Currently I am looking at doing my own system at work that will be opto22 based

Bob

PLC and HMI (human machine interface ) touch screen.

 

[jerryd68]

May sound strange but I would do my own system that is PLC based and program the parameters I want myself
Currently I am looking at doing my own system at work that will be opto22 based

Bob

It all depends on what you want to automate, from working with PLC's most of my career they have there place, very good at repeatable processes, discrete I/O and analog. The problem is they are expensive when you compare them to most of the home automation products.

 

[nutjob]

Whatever system you end up using make sure it is 2 way communication so the end device can tell the controller what state it is in.

I think the old X10 was one way, controller to device. Would walk outside and my porch lights would be on in the afternoon. Very common for a end device to "miss" the signal to change state.

Kevin

 

[Heavy Metal Doctor]

X10 (now obsolete)

HUH?? How obsolete? For use through a smartphone or something?? Or 2 different versions?
I'm not the computer / electronics tech at our house, the wife does all that....but I know we are currently using X-10 devices and Airsight cameras all of which go purchased and I put in last Fall. I'm not sure if she bought it all together or 2 different sources - I just put it all in. We can access / control everything form any web access and on her smart phone.

 

[madcoder]

subscribed!

 

[rsanter]

It all depends on what you want to automate, from working with PLC's most of my career they have there place, very good at repeatable processes, discrete I/O and analog. The problem is they are expensive when you compare them to most of the home automation products.

Yes they can be expensive but you have the option to automate anything you want where it seems like some of the home automation systems can be limited or you have to do it there way. More and more high end yahts and homes are going PLC and they are using the Ipod touches as their wall controls

Bob

 

[jerryd68]

Yes they can be expensive but you have the option to automate anything you want where it seems like some of the home automation systems can be limited or you have to do it there way. More and more high end yahts and homes are going PLC and they are using the Ipod touches as their wall controls

Bob

I totally agree that you can do anything you want with them, you are limited only by your imagination! I have built many systems and added to existing systems for years. Allen Bradley equipment becomes very addicting. After you automate systems and have to troubleshoot them you wonder how you ever did it with relays and hardwire!

 

[ddawg16]

Opto22? You mean Snap IO? Yuk on those...I wouldn't even do Automation Direct...stuff is cheap...but....really cheap....I'm an Allen Bradley guy....but I can't afford to slap in even a CompactLogix...though, it would be powerful.

For the HMI I could just run the Factory Talk on a PC....

And while the PLC connectivity to the web is getting there...I'm too broke for that...

The main items on the wish list....

1. Remote modules I can shove in a box to control a light. I have 2-3 boxes outside that only has power going to them....not switched. I want to put a 'magic' module in it so I can turn a device on or off....maybe monitor a motion sensor.

2. Control heads that I can place in 2 or more places in the house to activate/monitor sensors.

3. Wireless sensors I can place where ever I want....like the garage doors.

4. WEB connectivity....I want to be able to monitor those sensors with my smart phone.

 

[jerryd68]

Opto22? You mean Snap IO? Yuk on those...I wouldn't even do Automation Direct...stuff is cheap...but....really cheap....I'm an Allen Bradley guy....but I can't afford to slap in even a CompactLogix...though, it would be powerful.

For the HMI I could just run the Factory Talk on a PC....

And while the PLC connectivity to the web is getting there...I'm too broke for that...

The main items on the wish list....

1. Remote modules I can shove in a box to control a light. I have 2-3 boxes outside that only has power going to them....not switched. I want to put a 'magic' module in it so I can turn a device on or off....maybe monitor a motion sensor.

2. Control heads that I can place in 2 or more places in the house to activate/monitor sensors.

3. Wireless sensors I can place where ever I want....like the garage doors.

4. WEB connectivity....I want to be able to monitor those sensors with my smart phone.

I agree with the cost of the AB equipment as I also am a Allen Bradley guy, I have done a few projects with the Automation Direct equipment though and for the cost it isnt horrible especially for a basic system. The web connectivity isnt an inexpensive thing with the industrial equipment

 

[Turbotboz]

Subscribed. I'd like to do this myself as well.

 

[rsanter]

I am not an AB guy but I work with their stuff the most. I am actually not tied to any one brand and like it that way.
If you have never dealt with the Opto22 stuff or haven't recently then you don't really know. Good stuff and much easier for a home person to make changes to or do the programming

Bob

 

[jerryd68]

I am not an AB guy but I work with their stuff the most. I am actually not tied to any one brand and like it that way.
If you have never dealt with the Opto22 stuff or haven't recently then you don't really know. Good stuff and much easier for a home person to make changes to or do the programming

Bob

I agree with you, I'm not saying the the Opto22 stuff isnt good. I have delt with it in the past but nothing recently.

 

[Mike14k]

Crestron and AMX are worth considering and researching.

 

[rsanter]

I am very impressed with the opto22 stuff and frankly it's hard for any of that automation stuff to impress me after dealing with it for so many years

I have dealt with crestron stuff at work. Nice stuff but expensive and hard to deal with unless you want to study up on doing your own programming and it's expensive to bring a crestron person to you.
We are ripping out an old microlite system right now. Too much proprietary stuff that goes obsolete in just a few years.

Bob

 

[ddawg16]

I haven't played with the new Opto stuff....but never cared for the Snap IO or the older stuff....

But while a PLC would be easy (for me), it doesn't really fit into the home automation scheme....at least hardware wise. Not unless I wanted to start doing something like DeviceNet....but then you need a special cable.

I want something that is wireless.....or if wired...it uses the house wiring....

 

[ddawg16]

Since we are talking about PLC's.....this is what I'm programming this week. Small CompactLogix system....I'm using a Prosoft generic Ethernet card to control a couple of Agilent 34980A DAU's....measuring 200 Thermocouples and 96 vacuum transducers....

 

[jerryd68]

Since we are talking about PLC's.....this is what I'm programming this week. Small CompactLogix system....I'm using a Prosoft generic Ethernet card to control a couple of Agilent 34980A DAU's....measuring 200 Thermocouples and 96 vacuum transducers....

John
very nice, it looks like we do very similar work, I have used the compactlogix quite a bit, more the contrologix. I cut my teeth on PLC 5 and SLC's which we still have quite a bit of, I hate having to do anything in Logix 500 after working in 5000 for so long. I have used the prosoft card's with good results, I did a project recently where I interfaced a chiller system using feild server Ip. Used on that interfaced a boiler system using modbus.

 

[jomobco]

I have a Homeseer HS2 and I doubt I will upgrade when HS3 comes out for a couple of reasons. The first is if I ever decide to not use it anymore even though I bought a license the license isn't mine to resell. Read the fine print but Homeseer will deactivate it. Secondly my system isn't that complex, a couple of curtains, 20 or so lights and switches yet I can't run a single one of them on a handheld (iPhone) without a major software to the "pro" version or a ridiculously priced add on. In my opinion these guys just aren't keeping up with the times or the prices.

I'm actually looking at a new system coming out called Revolv.
http://revolv.com/

For less than 1/2 the price of an upgrade from HS2 to HS2 Pro which would be $449 I can get the Revolve for $299. And even if I upgraded to HS2 Pro then I would still be on the hook for more money when HS3 comes out (beta testing going on now). It will currently handle all my devices plus it looks stupid simple which Homeseer is not. Its also iPhone capable with Android soon to follow. All included in the price. Unless you have intense automation needs I would look other places than Homeseer.

Edit: most of my devices are Zwave

 

[GarageWarrior]

You guys should check out Arduino. The board is $30 shipped with a bunch of digital and analog I/O and development software is free. Expansion boards like motor controllers, Ethernet, bluetooth, lcd/pushbotton controls are cheap too like $20-$30. It's not Allen Bradley, but than you don't have to pay 3k just to get the development environment either.

http://playground.arduino.cc/projects/arduinoUsers

http://www.instructables.com/id/Arduino-Projects/

Arduino is used as a controller for an open-source 3-d printer btw.

 

[1/2 Cup]

Since we are talking about PLC's.....this is what I'm programming this week. Small CompactLogix system....I'm using a Prosoft generic Ethernet card to control a couple of Agilent 34980A DAU's....measuring 200 Thermocouples and 96 vacuum transducers....

We use AB and Motorola RTUs coupled with Cisco switches, all with IP connectivity.
Nice job by the way.

 

[slickgt1]

Am I the only one who doesn't understand ****, about anything, any of these guys are talking about. Damn.

 

[ddawg16]

John
very nice, it looks like we do very similar work, I have used the compactlogix quite a bit, more the contrologix. I cut my teeth on PLC 5 and SLC's which we still have quite a bit of, I hate having to do anything in Logix 500 after working in 5000 for so long. I have used the prosoft card's with good results, I did a project recently where I interfaced a chiller system using feild server Ip. Used on that interfaced a boiler system using modbus.

Same here.....remember the old Icom? (or something like that) What did AB call their old DOS based stuff? 6200 or something like that?

Actually....I still use a lot of the MicroLogix stuff...specifically, the 1100 and 1400. Both have built in Ethernet ports.....I use the 1100 as a controller for the smaller Agilent DAU's....I control the DAU with the second serial port....

The 1400 has 3 ports...one of which you can use as Modbus RTU...and if you use the right cable, you don't need an RS-232 to 422 converter...I frequently use it to control some Honeywell UDC 3200's via Modbus.....nice clean setup. And it's actually cheaper and easier than using the Kepware Modbus OPC server.

 

[ddawg16]

Am I the only one who doesn't understand ****, about anything, any of these guys are talking about. Damn.

Chances are.....no.....so don't feel bad....but it's ok....I was that way about 22 years ago...

 

[jerryd68]

Same here, learning the language is about the hardest part, my boss still really struggles with it, seems like I am speaking a foreign tongue to him most of the time.

 

[Glenn M.]

Subscribed.
I'm an old PLC-5 guy, I liked them just fine. Manufacturers used the heck out of them for a long time, and I guess some places are still running them.

 

[jerryd68]

They were and are a great controller, the only problem with them is they are large, and Rockwell has not done any real development with them since the release of the 5000platform, same with the SLC's. Since the 5000 series is 32 bit, they have not done a lot with the older 16 bit processors.

 

[Glenn M.]

I guess, besides the 16 bit vs 32 bit difference, that one other improvement is tag based programming vs numerical database structure? Not that it matters, but I kinda have the mindset more geared to numerical "discipline"...

 

[carlh6902]

I use Insteon and have had good results. DO NOT go with X10!


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[jerryd68]

I guess, besides the 16 bit vs 32 bit difference, that one other improvement is tag based programming vs numerical database structure? Not that it matters, but I kinda have the mindset more geared to numerical "discipline"...

Glenn,
I did also, I programmed PLC and SLC controllers for many years, took me a while to get used to the tag based system. Now down the road a few years I like it much better! In the old controllers you was limited "online" to the amount of data structure that you had defined, so if you needed a timer and there was not one available you had to redefine the amount of timers and download to the controller, with the new controllers if you need a timer you just name it and define it as a timer. We have a lot of systems that run 24/7 and it is very hard to get a time when you can take a controller into program mode and do a download.

 

[ddawg16]

For me...the real beauty in the ControlLogix family is the data structures and AOI's. As a regular programmer (actual PC software), I'm used to making structures (records) for different objects. With the ControlLogix I can do just that.

Good example....I have one for motors...

pbStartStop - BOOL
pbJob - BOOL
Enable - BOOL
Speed - Real
FLA - Real
RunTime - DINT

(those are just a sample of what I have)

My AOI takes care of all the details. Say I have a pump called VacPump1

If I want to turn it on...in my HMI I just set VacPump1.pbStartStop

If I want to know the speed...I look at VacPump1.Speed

Non of this N30:35 BS that you have with the SLC's or PLC-5's...

So....even if your project documentation gets lost....it's not hard to figure out what is what.

 

[jerryd68]

For me...the real beauty in the ControlLogix family is the data structures and AOI's. As a regular programmer (actual PC software), I'm used to making structures (records) for different objects. With the ControlLogix I can do just that.

Good example....I have one for motors...

pbStartStop - BOOL
pbJob - BOOL
Enable - BOOL
Speed - Real
FLA - Real
RunTime - DINT

(those are just a sample of what I have)

My AOI takes care of all the details. Say I have a pump called VacPump1

If I want to turn it on...in my HMI I just set VacPump1.pbStartStop

If I want to know the speed...I look at VacPump1.Speed

Non of this N30:35 BS that you have with the SLC's or PLC-5's...

So....even if your project documentation gets lost....it's not hard to figure out what is what.

Exactly, I often use the User Data types if I am doing a large project, if I have a large amount of pumps or other equimpent I will create a UDT pump and define everything that I want for it i.e. start, stop, commanded speed, amp draw, etc... Much easier than the only systems.

 

[beeph]

I don't get what this is for? People are so lazy nowadays they need a computer to flip a light switch? I can see for industrial use but.. damn.. buy a burglar light.. these gizmos are more hassle than they're worth.

 

[ddawg16]

I don't get what this is for? People are so lazy nowadays they need a computer to flip a light switch? I can see for industrial use but.. damn.. buy a burglar light.. these gizmos are more hassle than they're worth.

On the surface, that may seem the case.....however, I have some specific needs that are much better handled by automation.....

We have sort of long drive up the side of the house....my garage is in the rear....

Our current motion sensing light at near the front of the house next to a side door...we really don't want the motion sensing light there.....yes, it triggers when you walk down the drive or my wife pulls up in the car....but a lot of times we don't want it to go off when walking to the door...with two large lamps lighting up the whole drive...well, we don't like it. We want to replace it with a simple on/off light in a more 'decorative' fixture. (I get my tools, she gets her fixtures)

I'm almost finished with my 2-story addition....I installed a round box about midpoint on the house. I want to put a motion sensing light there....with the ability to turn it on/off when I want constant light....but to do it right would require 3 way wiring and to put the switches where I want them....about 150' of wire and a lot of work to get wires to the front of the house.

I also want to put a light at the front corner of the house so that when my wife drives up at night, she can turn it on....but we don't want to make it motion sensing, otherwise, people walking on the sidewalk will set it off...

Automation solves that problem.

I can install a remote module in the front light and motion sensing light. If I select the right system....I can put switches where I want them with only house power to them....and my wife can have an app on her phone that lets her turn on that light as she pulls up in the drive....

And....I will be able to be upstairs in the master bedroom and monitor my lights....and not have to walk downstairs to turn them off.

Oh....and with the right equipment....if my motion sensing light goes off and we are not home...I can get notification on my phone....and most likely look at the cameras as well to see what is going on....

Of course you prefer switches....that's fine....no doubt you have tossed the remote to your TV and get up to change the channels?

 

[Heavy Metal Doctor]

I don't get what this is for? People are so lazy nowadays they need a computer to flip a light switch? I can see for industrial use but.. damn.. buy a burglar light.. these gizmos are more hassle than they're worth.

Sure, you can put lights on timers and whatnot, but there's more to it than just that.

Use my situation as an example:
When our kids moved out and no one was left home to give the dogs a break to go outside during the middle of the work day, the wife and I had to work out a plan. No friends / family who could help 5 days a week / every week. A pet sitter costs hundreds per month. We work too far from home to go home for lunch. We refuse to to just pen them out in the backyard in the weather and / or have them bark all day. Try as we might, telepathy just didn't seem to work to open the back door to let them out. So now we have live cameras watching the place inside / out and a secure dog run attached to the back of the house with an electronic dog-door -- a click on the i-phone / computer at work and they happily get let out for that break from many miles away -- in place for nearly a year and all cost including the dog run / building materials for door install has already been saved over what paying a sitter service would have cost.....
The system we use is very simple and basic. It works, but I can see where more stuff / more ability of the systems discussed here could make this type of thing go even further to help deal with changes / contingencies in a given situation.....it's not just about turning on the front porch light every evening.....

 

[justsam]

I think this topic is a case where we need to be careful with acronyms.

When you talk of simple early automation and mention X10, you are talking about PLC, in this case POWER LINE CARRIER. Communication is over the power line.

This thread topic also invites those that are familiar with PLC as PROGRAMMABLE LOGIC CONTROLLER.

 

[Glenn M.]

In addition to the automation processes, alarm capabilities can be added. That's what I'm hoping to learn a little more about in this thread...

 

[jerryd68]

I have been thinking about alarming also, I have a hobby greenhouse and during the winter months I would like to be notified if the temperture approaches freezing.

 

[ddawg16]

At this point, Z-Wave has the most interest to me....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-Wave

Z-Wave communicates using a low-power wireless technology designed specifically for remote control applications. The Z-Wave wireless protocol is optimized for reliable, low-latency communication of small data packets with data rates up to 100Kbps,[1] unlike Wi-Fi and other IEEE 802.11-based wireless LAN systems that are designed primarily for high-bandwidth data flow. Z-Wave operates in the sub-gigahertz frequency range, around 900 MHz. This band competes with some cordless telephones and other consumer electronics devices, but avoids interference with Wi-Fi, Bluetooth and other systems that operate on the crowded 2.4 GHz band. Z-Wave is designed to be easily embedded in consumer electronics products, including battery operated devices such as remote controls, smoke alarms and security sensors. Z-Wave was developed by a Danish startup called Zen-Sys that was acquired by Sigma Designs in 2008.
As of 2013, Z-Wave is supported by over 160 manufacturers worldwide and appears in a broad range of consumer and commercial products in the US, Europe and Asia. The lower layers, MAC and PHY, are described by ITU-T G.9959[2][3] and fully backwards compatible. The Z-Wave transceiver chips are supplied by Sigma Designs and Mitsumi.
Some Z-Wave product vendors have open source options for the hobbyist communities. They require users to start with a complete Z-Wave transceiver from a Z-Wave OEM such as an Intermatic USB stick. The xPL project also provides open source support for Z-Wave products,[4] but requires Microsoft Windows.[5]
Since 2010, there is a project called Open-zwave that seeks to offer development support without expensive software development kits.[6] Another project has created a Z-Wave daughter board for the Raspberry Pi, a credit-card-sized single-board computer.[7]

Downside....I want something that also works via the hardwired AC wiring in the house.