Home Electrical Help Please

[moreover]

I am adding a 100A Square DHomeline sub-panel to my attached shop. To add plenty of recepticals for my new welder. I currently have my new sub-panel mounted and supplied by 1-1-1-3 AL SER cable that runs in the attic to my existing sub panel, 35’ in distance. Panel install was painless but I am now stuck with the termination of this cable to my existing sub-panel.

My main panel is supplied by a pedestal mounted meter and 225A disconnect with two hots, a neutral and Ground. This main panel feeds a sub-panel in the next stud bay via a 100A breaker and 2awg CU (two hots surrounded with a braid of bare ground).

There is no room at the top of the main panel to drop in with the 1-1-1-3. So I decided to tie into the existing sub-panel for the new sub-panel.

My dilemma is that my old sub-panel is not wired to meet the 2008 code as I understand it (home built in 1987). The neutral is bonded. This is grandfathered and should be OK but feeding another sub-panel from this seems against code.

I was in the process of moving the existing sub-panel grounds to a newly installed bar in preparation to isolate neutral but am now wondering if it is OK to leave the existing sub-panel as is.

Can anyone answer if this is allowable? If this needs to be upgraded please see below.

I have enough 1-1-1-3 to re-wire the existing sub-panel but have run into some snags with the older Cutler Hammer panels. The neutral bars in the older panel will not accept the newer style add-on lugs as the screws on the new lugs are ¼” fine thread while the bars are 5/16” fine thread. No one locally has what I need and I am inclined to use the tinned aluminum mechanical lugs pictured below. Is this a good legal way to make the connection for my neutral?
Also, does it matter where the neutral lugs are in relation to the bar? Do they need to be at the top or will anywhere that’s convenient suffice?

Thanks for the help.

 

[Innovate1]

I don't see any issue with adding a ground bar to update the subpanel. But it appears both the panel and subpanel are full. Where are you going to get a space for the breaker for the garage? I suppose you could run the garage off the subpanel - if you do load calcs things won't quite line up but it would be safe. And you wouldn't get the full 100A at the garage due to the additional load on the existing sub panel. I think I would put in a larger sub panel to get some open slots in the main panel and then run the garage directly from the main panel. A subpanel doesn't cost that much although if its a different brand the breakers add up. And it looks like there is room run run another cable into the top of the main panel. If not run the cable to the subpanel out the bottom to free up room at the top.

 

[moreover]

I had a few hours today to power the house down so just went all in with a new 4 wire feeder between the existing panels. Does anything look out of place here?

As to the reply above:

The existing sub-panel (the small one) has the 100A breaker already installed to feed my new sub-panel. That explains why there was no empty spot(s).

 

[moreover]

I had to post again in order to attach pictures meant for my post above.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I am adding a 100A Square D Homeline sub-panel to my attached shop. To add plenty of receptacle for my new welder. I currently have my new sub-panel mounted and supplied by 1-1-1-3 AL SER cable that runs in the attic to my existing sub panel, 35’ in distance. Panel install was painless but I am now stuck with the termination of this cable to my existing sub-panel.

My main panel is supplied by a pedestal mounted meter and 225A disconnect with two hots, a neutral and Ground. This main panel feeds a sub-panel in the next stud bay via a 100A breaker and 2awg CU (two hots surrounded with a braid of bare ground)....

number of issues here.

what youre calling the main panel is NOT the main panel since its fed by a 225a breaker at the meter. ALL panels after this 225a breaker are SUBPANELS. Since it was wired before the 2008 code cycle, the first subpanel can be 3-wire since its detached (this is moot since you say its 4-wire already- make sure neutral is isolated) but the downstream subpanels need to be 4-wire with isolated neutral.

One thing wrong is the PVC terminal adapters at the top.

The subpanel next to it is also wrong. needs a 4-wire feeder and isolated neutral.

please refer to post #3 on this thread.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=356460

My dilemma is that my old sub-panel is not wired to meet the 2008 code as I understand it (home built in 1987). The neutral is bonded. This is grandfathered and should be OK but feeding another sub-panel from this seems against code.

Incorrect. It is NOT grandfathered because code NEVER allowed a 3-wire fed, bonded neutral subpanel in the same structure as the feeding panel. the pre-2008 code allowed 3-wire neutral bonded feeders to DETACHED structures. the first panel, what youre calling the main panel, could be 3-wire but the panels connecting to it need to be 4-wire.

I was in the process of moving the existing sub-panel grounds to a newly installed bar in preparation to isolate neutral but am now wondering if it is OK to leave the existing sub-panel as is.

Can anyone answer if this is allowable? If this needs to be upgraded please see below.

not only does the smaller subpanel need a ground bar and isolated neutral, it will also need a new 4-wire feeder. the #2 cu is overkill as well. #3 is ok for 100a- so 3-3-3-8 cu. Or you could do #1 al (1-1-1-6).

 

[moreover]

I was hoping you would respond. If you notice, in the post above yours, I responded with an update.

I have gone ahead and upgraded the smaller sub-panel to a 4 wire (AL 1-1-1-3) feed and installed a ground bar in order to isolate the neutral.

The larger sub-panel still has the bonded neutral. I'm not sure the feeder coming from the meter/225A breaker is considered a 4 wire. There are only two hots and a neutral (AL 4/0) coming in. The 8awg ground wire enters through a small hole in the panel and I assume goes out to a ground rod or two? If this is the case do I still need to isolate the neutral at this sub-panel?

The PVC hubs are pretty hokey.

Thanks foe the help.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If theres no ground wire in the feeder then its a 3-wire feed. The GEC to the rods doesnt count.

Its code legal up until 2008.