Home surge protector

[raco232]

I just got 2 heating/air units installed at my home, just looking for recommendations on whole home surge protectors that are worthy of using. I've got $21000 invested in this equipment and need some kind of protection. I got hit with a good surge or lightning on Easter Sunday 2020 morning and had about $18000 electrical damage at that time. Any suggestions?

 

[sberry]

First, make sure your grounding electrodes are in tact, even add more. Most likely,,, it would take a real examination to see exactly what happened,,,, but the equipment provided a better ground than the electric system did.
This happens with wells. The neighbors got hit. The insurance guyand they said,,, it hit the well and a few other things but in reality it hit an ungrounded outbuilding, went thru the circuit, thru the house it was connected to, out to the main where the rods had rotted off and then found its way to the well thru the electric equipment ground. the service wasn't bonded to the steel well casing like it should have been.
I got one of my own I should have fixed and still should when I think of it.

 

[sberry]

For a surge to work it must have a good ground. Most direct to the stakes or uffer is the best. I had to study a while and get a little help with this,, quite a while ago so it has had some time to sink in but figured out most of my problem was thru the phone really, dipstick didn't ground it cause,,, "I just don't understand" so instead of following the instructions he does it like he thinks cause he don't know why,,,, which seems like a ggod reason to follow it but,,,, noooo
It has taken a good while to realize if I don't know why and there is a rule there might be a good reason. We get this a lot with codes here. Doesn't make sense to some so it must be faulty or written by someone with too much time on their hands.

 

[Baydog]

We use a lot of the products from PSP, especially their Hurricane 2000 series for residential use. They use gas tubes for additional protection and are not very expensive for the level of protection they provide.
https://www.pspproducts.com/

 

[Stuart in MN]

I see this one from Square D used pretty often. https://www.zoro.com/square-d-surge-protection-device-1-phase-120240v-sdsa1175/i/G0447772/

 

[wyliesdiesels]

How are your ground rods hooked up?

Are your telco and cableco lines propery bonded/grounded?

 

[raco232]

How are your ground rods hooked up?

Are your telco and cableco lines propery bonded/grounded?

I have no telephone, only cell phones. Got rid of cable and am now on fiber, but I will check on the cable (ISP). I totally forgot about adding a grounding ring at the house. I worked with an electrician 20yrs ago and helped him install a few. He swears that they work, couldn't really understand the science behind it, I will go ahead and install one.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If Fiber is undergrounded, then its probably armored and should be properly bonded as well.

 

[Showkey]

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=455813

Lightening protection or avoidance or defense can be “hit and miss” ( and whole lot of luck ( both good and bad))

 

[MBfreak]

I have been involved in the design and installation of high voltage ( > 300kV) susbstations in many countries. Some with horrible thunder storms.

For lightning protection the primary part is a system of "umbrella wires" more than 10 meters higher then the busbar and switchgear live parts.
Thus , direct strikes are mostly avoided.
For transmission line travelling surge waves we use zinc oxide surge arrestors in the switchgear installation.
Lightning strikes are not easy to understand and prevent.

All incoming metal parts into a building must be earthed at the entrance point. The better the earth , the better the protection.
Also use lightning arrestors very close to your expensive equipment. An arrestor at the meter gives very little protection 15 wire meters away.
Also, arrestors can explode and may be a fire hazard

Ola

 

[rlitman]

After you've installed a whole house surge protector at your panel, with proper SHORT wiring (and all bends radiused) and a VERY good ground path, you can also install smaller SPDs on sub-panels as well. They don't help as much as the main, but they can help.

On my mini-split disconnects, I use these:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0052DMIUK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[raco232]

I checked my #6 bare tonight. I was able to pull it out of the ground, it was not connected to ground rod. I’m going to start over with repairing the grounding In a couple of days. I’ll put in 2 rods, but I am open for suggestions.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I checked my #6 bare tonight. I was able to pull it out of the ground, it was not connected to ground rod. I’m going to start over with repairing the grounding In a couple of days. I’ll put in 2 rods, but I am open for suggestions.

well theres your problem right there. who hooked this up?

 

[sberry]

Rods seem kind of simple but they work. There is no reason not to help them and it seems putting them in the eve drip line is the ideal place. I have a super uffer, big footing poured right to the water table, resteel, bonded to the building. It was done long time ago, got the 2 rods too.

 

[raco232]

well theres your problem right there. who hooked this up?

Don’t know who hooked it up. Between the ISP’s bringing in cable or fiber and my new electrical underground service upgraded, somebody cut the wire somewhere along the way. I’m not going to fuss at anyone, just going to install 2new rods and if I get a new #4 bare to panel, i will do that also.

 

[Jsf721]

After you've installed a whole house surge protector at your panel, with proper SHORT wiring (and all bends radiused) and a VERY good ground path, you can also install smaller SPDs on sub-panels as well. They don't help as much as the main, but they can help.

On my mini-split disconnects, I use these:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0052DMIUK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Can you tell me what I need to check ground wise and install to protect my home electronics and HVAC systems ? I have a full Panel box and I’m having a sub panel installed along with a transfer switch and a generator.

My goal is to protect the HVAC systems and TVs /computers and electronics in the house.


Thanks

 

[rlitman]

Can you tell me what I need to check ground wise and install to protect my home electronics and HVAC systems ? I have a full Panel box and I’m having a sub panel installed along with a transfer switch and a generator.

My goal is to protect the HVAC systems and TVs /computers and electronics in the house.


Thanks

Well, grounding is it's own topic, because while current carrying conductors are installed to meet ampacity requirements (something electricians understand quite well), grounding conductors need to have a minimal impedance to work best, and impedance is NOT something most electricians understand, unless they happen to be HAM radio hobbyists.

For the most part, you don't have too much control over how your sub-panel or AC disconnects are grounded, so don't sweat it. If they're wired to modern code, that should be good enough, because the impedance of the current carrying conductors will be as high as (equal to) the ground wire. Ideally, you want a lower impedance to ground, and that's particularly important at your main panel, but if the ground impedance is ever higher, then you simply cannot effectively mitigate surges.

At the main panel, your grounding system is bonded to the utility neutral wire. From here out, it is critical that your ground wire follow a short path to earth. That ground wire must not be encased in metal (bx armor, metallic flex or metal conduit are all bad, anything NM non-metallic is fine for protection as needed), and should follow a sweeping wide radius (ideally >8" radius) wherever bent. Tight bends in ground wires increase impedance, which prevents an SPD from working as desired.

The NEC dictates only a universally minimum standard for ground rods, and I have bad news for you on that front. Long Island has terrible soil conductivity (it's the nature of a terminal moraine). See for yourself here:

M3 Map of Effective Ground Conductivity in the United States for AM Broadcast Stations

Figure R3 of 47 CFR 73.190 of the Commission’s Rules contains a map of the estimated effective ground conductivity in the United States. This data is used to predict the propagation of AM signals across the United States. A higher ground conductivity indicates better AM propagation...

www.fcc.gov

I ran into this map when doing the leg-work for a lightning protection system for my office, and while UL96/NFPA780 do not delve into ground rod depth, IEC 62305 discusses this quite well. So far as I can tell, the only way on Long Island to ensure a truly good connection to earth is by driving a rod into the water table. Where I live on the south shore, a 10' 5/8" rod does just fine. By my office on a ridge on the north shore, we used 3/4" rods and couplers, and spent quite a bit of time jackhammering to get to 60' down. USGS publishes water table depths.

Long Island Depth to Water Viewer

 

[Jsf721]

Thanks for the response. What would an effective unit look like for a home ? HVAC, TV, computers and other electronic life stuff ? House has a full breaker panel and I’m adding a sun panel.

Well, grounding is it's own topic, because while current carrying conductors are installed to meet ampacity requirements (something electricians understand quite well), grounding conductors need to have a minimal impedance to work best, and impedance is NOT something most electricians understand, unless they happen to be HAM radio hobbyists.

For the most part, you don't have too much control over how your sub-panel or AC disconnects are grounded, so don't sweat it. If they're wired to modern code, that should be good enough, because the impedance of the current carrying conductors will be as high as (equal to) the ground wire. Ideally, you want a lower impedance to ground, and that's particularly important at your main panel, but if the ground impedance is ever higher, then you simply cannot effectively mitigate surges.

At the main panel, your grounding system is bonded to the utility neutral wire. From here out, it is critical that your ground wire follow a short path to earth. That ground wire must not be encased in metal (bx armor, metallic flex or metal conduit are all bad, anything NM is fine for protection as needed), and should follow a sweeping wide radius (ideally >8" radius) wherever bent. Tight bends in ground wires increase impedance, which prevents an SPD from working as desired.

The NEC dictates only a universally minimum standard for ground rods, and I have bad news for you on that front. Long Island has terrible soil conductivity (it's the nature of a terminal moraine). See for yourself here:

M3 Map of Effective Ground Conductivity in the United States for AM Broadcast Stations

Figure R3 of 47 CFR 73.190 of the Commission’s Rules contains a map of the estimated effective ground conductivity in the United States. This data is used to predict the propagation of AM signals across the United States. A higher ground conductivity indicates better AM propagation...

www.fcc.gov

I ran into this map when doing the leg-work for a lightning protection system for my office, and while UL96/NFPA780 do not delve into ground rod depth, IEC 62305 discusses this quite well. So far as I can tell, the only way on Long Island to ensure a truly good connection to earth is by driving a rod into the water table. Where I live on the south shore, a 10' 5/8" rod does just fine. By my office on a ridge on the north shore, we used 3/4" rods and couplers, and spent quite a bit of time jackhammering to get to 60' down. USGS publishes water table depths.

Long Island Depth to Water Viewer

 

[rlitman]

Thanks for the response. What would an effective unit look like for a home ? HVAC, TV, computers and other electronic life stuff ? House has a full breaker panel and I’m adding a sun panel.

For your main panel (and for any sub-panels), you will want a 4-wire SPD (sometimes called 3-wire + ground) (technically 3-wire is fine on a main panel where the neutral and ground meet, but most 3-wire SPDs have lower kA ratings that may not be appropriate on most services; any sub will need 4-wire).
I'm not into recommending specific manufacturers, but if I were buying today, I'd probably buy a Square D HEPD80 for my main panel (80kA should be fine on a 200A service), and a Square D HEPD50 for sub-panels.

But I don't actually have surge protection on my sub-panels. The #1 most important place for an SPD is to protect from incoming surges from the utility side, and that's done on your main panel. Surges from within your house will be far lower in power, and you're best off catching them at their source. I have an SPD type outlet behind my refrigerator, and ice-cube type SPDs on my AC disconnects. The Square D HEPD25 looks to be a newer, superior and cheaper replacement for the SDSA1175 ice-cube I linked above.

 

[Jsf721]

For your main panel (and for any sub-panels), you will want a 4-wire SPD (sometimes called 3-wire + ground).
I'm not into recommending specific manufacturers, but if I were buying today, I'd probably buy a Square D HEPD80 for my main panel (80kA should be fine on a 200A service), and a Square D HEPD50 for sub-panels.

But I don't actually have surge protection on my sub-panels. The #1 most important place for an SPD is to protect from incoming surges from the utility side, and that's done on your main panel. Surges from within your house will be far lower in power, and you're best off catching them at their source. I have an SPD type outlet behind my refrigerator, and ice-cube type SPDs on my AC disconnects. The Square D HEPD25 looks to be a newer, superior and cheaper replacement for the SDSA1175 ice-cube I linked above.

I appreciate the advise and explanation.

Since I plan on having a licensed electrician install am I better off getting the type you can replace the guts if they go bad ? My fear is if this Fails I’ll have to wait for a sparky to come replace.

Does that make any sense ? Or if this fails does the power still flow if just does not protect ?

Thanks .

 

[rlitman]

I appreciate the advise and explanation.

Since I plan on having a licensed electrician install am I better off getting the type you can replace the guts if they go bad ? My fear is if this Fails I’ll have to wait for a sparky to come replace.

Does that make any sense ? Or if this fails does the power still flow if just does not protect ?

Thanks .

That depends on your comfort level. The ones I linked connect to a breaker and your neutral/ground bus. With the breaker shut off, the hot wires are easy to work on (even easier with the breaker pulled). The neutral/ground bus may be harder to work with in a busy panel (these are why I own insulated screwdrivers).

But really, these things may last decades, and when they fail the little indicator lamp goes out, but your power will remain un-interrupted. Just look at the light every so often to know if it is still working, and when the light goes out, replace it at your leisure. In a residential setting, with a sufficiently sized device on the main panel, it may never fail. The commercial ones I deal with last a few years, and my biggest issue is that a 2500A service lets in a whole lot of surges.

 

[mcbane]

After having lightning damage, I installed a cheap whole house protector. It turned into soot and melted plastic a few years back but there was no damage to any appliances or electronics in the house. I now have a 320 service with two 200A distribution panels. The garage with the service entrance has a very extensive ground system including 240' of ring ground. Each distribution panel has a Eaton CHSPT2ULTRA on it. Thus far no damage but no way to tell whether the new surge protectors have absorbed any surges.

Have you talked to your homeowners insurance co to see what coverage you have and whether you can buy extended coverage for electrical storm damage?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

At the main panel, your grounding system is bonded to the utility neutral wire. From here out, it is critical that your ground wire follow a short path to earth. That ground wire must not be encased in metal (bx armor, metallic flex or metal conduit are all bad, anything NM is fine for protection as needed), and should follow a sweeping wide radius (ideally >8" radius) wherever bent. Tight bends in ground wires increase impedance, which prevents an SPD from working as desired.

any GEC sized smaller than #6 is required to be armored in BX/flex. So many installs may indeed have an armored GEC. its required to be bonded at the rod to prevent "choking".

also not sure why you brought up NM, as its not allowed outdoors.

 

[rlitman]

any GEC sized smaller than #6 is required to be armored in BX/flex. So many installs may indeed have an armored GEC. its required to be bonded at the rod to prevent "choking".

also not sure why you brought up NM, as its not allowed outdoors.

NM just referring to non-metallic (I edited my post above for clarity). Not Romex of course, but something like LFNC or PVC conduit can be used to protect a ground. You will not have a GEC smaller than #6 from a main panel to a ground rod anyway (at least in a modern house), yet I've seen AHJs want sleeving on a #6 if it is subject to damage (another reason to size up to #4).

one more edit:
Bonding flex to a ground rod will reduce choking, but will not completely fix the impedance issue. Due to the skin effect (which is particularly strong at high frequencies), anything metallic surrounding the GEC will become the path that a surge gets diverted through, and flex makes for a terribly high impedance path. Also, flex outdoors - um nope, and bonding flex, whether aluminum or galvanized steel to copper, yeah, that's a great idea corrosion wise too. Look, if you need to protect the GEC, figure out a way to do it in schedule 80 PVC or just use a heavier copper that doesn't need protection*.

*Ok, that's not always the best idea either. In my LPS project, we used UL listed aluminum braid down-leads, but the aluminum must end in bi-metallic connectors >24" above ground level, with copper beneath that to the underground terminal. That sounds good, but I couldn't have a 2/0 copper wire laying on the building's aluminum trim at the top of the foundation (that would start a corrosion nightmare), so the compromise was to sleeve the copper in LFNC, and a separate aluminum wire was run from the aluminum side down to the flashing where it was attached with an aluminum screw (lightning protection wires that come within a minimum distance from metal building parts must be bonded to prevent arcing).

 

[dave*99]

I have this on my main panel. Before purchasing it, I spoke the the utility distribution engineer that covers my area. We agreed this was worthwhile.
The light is still on.

 

[starquestMM]

Is there any advantage to the exterior mount ones vs the bus mount?

 

[dave*99]

Like this:

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[rlitman]

Is there any advantage to the exterior mount ones vs the bus mount?

Generally it is the opposite. Every inch of wire between the bus and the MOV bank detracts from your protection, so a bus mounted device has a head-start advantage that's hard to beat.