Honeywell Zonecontrol HVAC ????

[rjacobs]

Anybody on here install Honeywell Zonecontrol HVAC zone setups?

Looking at having one installed on one of the two HVAC units on the new house the wife and I are building.

Trying to see if I have my brain wrapped around the required items... I am going to try to get the builder to install said system, but not sure his HVAC guys will do it... but if they do I want to have a price in mind that I will pay vs. their normal 300% markup B.S. we have been subject to so far. Otherwise I will have it done after the fact as everything outside of the control board is wireless.

Anyway, here is what I have come up with that I believe I need. 4 zone system(2 bedrooms, game room, theater room).

1x HZ432 controller
4x ARD10TZ 10" zone control valves. Might need 8 or 12", not sure what the builder specs for duct size and I may need more than 4 depending on how the builder plumbs the manifold(game room may get 2 vents due to size).
4x YTH5320R1000 non programmable zone thermostat kits


If anybody can comment on what I believe I need I would appreciate it. If the above is all I need it looks like 1500-1600 buys all the parts. Im guessing 4-5 hours of labor so maybe another 400-500 bucks to have it all installed, but maybe I am out of line on the install time(guessing 1 hour per zone plus 1 hour for the overall system).

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I can't stand them. Every zoned duct system I've ever worked on had all kinds of load, airflow and comfort problems.

Tommy

 

[rjacobs]

I can't stand them. Every zoned duct system I've ever worked on had all kinds of load, airflow and comfort problems.

Tommy

Ive never had a zoned system, but the couple of my buddies that have them like them.

Here is my issue. Were building this house that has 2 HVAC units. I "think" I can get the builder to at least plumb the ducts so that one unit supplies the 2 spare bedrooms, upstairs game room and upstairs theater room...then the other unit would supply the main house(kitchen, living room, dining, master bedroom, master bath, etc...). I would then put the zone system on the 2nd HVAC system(spare bedrooms, game room, theater) and the 1st(main) system would be a normal setup. My reasoning for doing this is because 99% of the time the 2 spare bedrooms, game room and theater will not be occupied. The theater room will get the most use so I want to be able to have individual control over that room while keeping the others shut down. THe zone system seems like the best way to do this.

Mini-splits are not possible, already asked the builder about that.

Most they "seem" to be willing to do is plumb the ducting how I want it.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I see. Something that has to be kept in mind, duct design isn't like running plumbing, where you can just add branch circuits anywhere as long as the pipe diameter is adequate. It has to be designed to flow the correct volume of air to each area served and it based on the overall ability of the air handler. If these contractors are going off of Manual J and Manual D calculations, things will probably be OK.

Tommy

 

[brewchief]

Adding zoning to a forced air system looks a lot easier than it is.
I've dealt with a decent amount of zoned systems and they only work decent if they are designed properly.
Unless the zone controls have the ability to increase or decrease the amount of airflow as zones turn on and off then each zone either needs to be able to handle the entire airflow of the system or use a bypass damper or dump zone to deal with excess air. This has become much more important with the advent of variable speed and constant torque motors that will do their best to move the amount of air they are told to move.




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[rjacobs]

Adding zoning to a forced air system looks a lot easier than it is.
I've dealt with a decent amount of zoned systems and they only work decent if they are designed properly.
Unless the zone controls have the ability to increase or decrease the amount of airflow as zones turn on and off then each zone either needs to be able to handle the entire airflow of the system or use a bypass damper or dump zone to deal with excess air. This has become much more important with the advent of variable speed and constant torque motors that will do their best to move the amount of air they are told to move.

I believe the Honeywell system does a lot of that. I dont know if it can control a bypass damper though.

Ideally I will have the builder install it and their HVAC contractor will build the system accordingly.

I talked to 2 guys briefly about it that are HVAC contractors(friends of a friend) and they said they could come in and install it no problem. They didnt say anything about any issues associated with adding it to a pre-existing system.

 

[Ohmthis]

Adding zoning to a forced air system looks a lot easier than it is.
I've dealt with a decent amount of zoned systems and they only work decent if they are designed properly.
Unless the zone controls have the ability to increase or decrease the amount of airflow as zones turn on and off then each zone either needs to be able to handle the entire airflow of the system or use a bypass damper or dump zone to deal with excess air. This has become much more important with the advent of variable speed and constant torque motors that will do their best to move the amount of air they are told to move.




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Brewchief and LSTommy have the most important step nailed. The TOTAL duct design has to be designed with zoning in mind. As the zones open and close the pressures inside the duct changes. What is done to balance the pressures is very important. I have used the Honeywell zone panels and to be honest there are better ones on the market. The Honeywell HZ panels will require a bypass damper to bleed off excess pressure. This is a little counterproductive. The air that you just paid to condition is bypassed back into the return to condition again. There are other zone systems that use a pressure sensor, and once the pressure rises too high will slightly open a zone(s) and bleed off the pressures to rooms. This fixes the balance issue and also uses the conditioned air IN the house. I can give to links to some if you’d like to PM me. Also, some equipment manufacturers have their own zoning systems that work well and you can create a whole package.

 

[yeldogt]

Zoning has changed now that multi-speed equipment is on the market ... as others have said the duct work has to be correct.

I grew up in a large zoned house .. so I knew it would work when I redid my first. I did a typical large 4 square .. and added to the back (kitchen extension and great room). What I ended up with was 3 areas .... all about the same size (kitchen/ addition ... lower part of the main house and 2nd floor) This was a relatively easy thing to zone as I had a basement to get all the trunks and dampers in place ..... as well as returns. Three thermostats controling system with normally open dampers.

You can't just go in and start adding dampers to the ductwork .. the ducts have to be able to handle the minimum load of the equipment.

Now .. with new VS (Variable Speed) equipment -- it's a whole new game. That's the way to zone.

I really like the Carrier 5 speed system and the Carrier zoning is tops (I hear the new Trane is also very good). After an overall load for the building is determined -- a room by room load is done to size the ductwork (have to make sure the ductwork is large enough to each room. Then the trunks are designed .....

I design the system so that the smallest trunk must be able to take the minimum system output plus 25%. This way even if one zone is calling the system has no issue with flow. The Carrier system is really neat in that it has an initialization program where it "learns" each zone and understands the back pressures. The system moves and modulates the zone dampers throughout the day and the AC/HP/Furnace modulates it's output to match .. the fan provides what's needed. The upgrades to the Carrier unit for the zoning is like $1500 .. plus the dampers. The VS equipment is more expensive vs the standard stuff.

I have used the 5 speed twice and it going into my new project .... prior to the 5 speed I used the 2 speed in two projects as well.

 

[fitter30]

Your installation times are a little off. Running wire is the easy part then there is programming , calibration and fine tuning. Zone system have to some engineering of duct size and where the dampers can be located for service.

 

[rjacobs]

Thanks for all the info guys, I really appreciate it.

I STILL have not had my builder meeting yet before they start construction...only a month+ behind schedule at this point...

I will bring up all of this with the builder and see what solutions they have.

I guess my main goal in this is to not put HVAC into rooms that arent used very often as its a complete waste of electricity to heat/cool a room with no use 99% of the time...but at the same time I will have at least 1 room on the system that DOES need to be conditioned... It seemed that a zone system was possibly the easiest to seal off rooms that dont need conditioned air as I have read that simply closing off the vents in the room is only like 20% efficient, but a good quality zone valve at the manifold can block 100% of the air.

I also understand the issues associated with doing this and the air handler needs to be able to do certain things to not over pressurize the duct work.

Much more things to think about than I knew about.

 

[yeldogt]

It's not just pressurizing the ductwork ... it's a reduction of the needed output of the equipment.

With my above 3 zone setup example -- the equipment was three ton AC. Everybody wanted to put in 4T because 3T fell short using some models. But, with zoning the last thing you want to do is oversize the equipment. Should I design a system so that it can take one supper hot day every couple of years .. IMO. Would we die if the temp got to 74 .. there would be no humidity problems because the system would be running.

On the hottest days a properly sized system should never stop.

Zoning works best when it's really a zone. Eliminating this and that room is more difficult -- again this may be possible with equipment that's not oversized and dampers set to bleed partially.

The thing to remember is you don't want to eliminate rooms from conditioning -- you are trying to make the used rooms the most comfortable. Why try and cool a 2nd floor when no one is using it during the day .. why fight the heat gain .. by the time it's needed the heat gain is past and the unit can quickly cool the space. Same with a kitchen great room -- flood the space with conditioned air when it's needed.

Zoning is also great with larger open houses -- in the winter the lower spaces need more heat ..in the summer the upper more cooing .... zoning makes it easy.

 

[rjacobs]

The thing to remember is you don't want to eliminate rooms from conditioning -- you are trying to make the used rooms the most comfortable. Why try and cool a 2nd floor when no one is using it during the day .. why fight the heat gain .. by the time it's needed the heat gain is past and the unit can quickly cool the space. Same with a kitchen great room -- flood the space with conditioned air when it's needed.

Im trying to wrap my brain around how you wrote this...

"dont want to eliminate rooms from conditioning"

"why try and cool a 2nd floor when no one is using it during the day .. why fight the heat gain"


You say I dont want to actually eliminate rooms from conditioning, but then you say "why try to cool rooms when nobody is using them"... The two statements dont work together, at least in my brain.

So as I said earlier, I have 2 spare bedrooms on the main floor that will see very little use. I then have a game room and media room on the second floor(only rooms up there) that will also see limited use... Media room more than game room and the media room will have all 4 walls plus floor and ceiling, fully insulated.

My issue that I would like to address as I see it is two fold, well 3 fold...
-4 rooms with not a ton of usage so dont want to waste electricity running HVAC
-2 rooms are on the second floor, so thermostat placement gets difficult. Again, I dont know how the builder plans to plumb the dual HVAC units. They may have a different plan than I envision... They may run one unit downstairs and one unit upstairs, I dont know.
-The 2 rooms upstairs, I could care less about constantly conditioning the game room as it will see the least usage of the two rooms, but I would like to possibly always condition the media room. And as has been brought up, the heat load up-stairs is going to be different to manage than downstairs. We are doing spray foam on the under side of the roof deck, which will help equalize temps a little but upstairs will always be hotter.

I guess its hard to come up with a plan when I dont really know what the builder has planned as far as how they plumb the dual HVAC setup...and until I know that, again, hard to plan anything on my end.

 

[Ohmthis]

RJacobs, don’t over think this. My bet is that one system will cover the upstairs (how many square feet BTW) and one will cover the first floor. These will obviously have a Tstat each and I guess technically each a zone.
Yeldogt is saying that zoning is not about completely shutting off a room here or there, but to make “areas” more comfortable. Let’s say you have one system on a two story house. When the Tstat asks for air conditioning the upper rooms most definitely will be warmer than the lower. Even with the best design and duct install the chances of the upstairs area being hotter is high. Now take the same house and split the upstairs and main floor into zones. Both controlled by their own Tstat. When the upstairs needs cooling, only that area will get conditioned. The upstairs and main floor can be kept much more comfortable.
I hope you understand what I’m saying. There are pros and cons to zoning. My last house (a story and a half with a basement) I zoned and it was very comfortable and efficient. My current home has two systems (upstairs and main floor/basement with the main floor and basement zoned) that is equally comfortable and efficient.
One last thought, the idea of foaming the underside of the roof adds conditioned space and your HVAC has to be sized for that. If it’s not an area that can be used I suggest you foam (just an inch or two) the ceiling to seal it up well and the blow insulation on top of that. You will then only need to size the HVAC for the usable rooms. Good luck on your project!

 

[yeldogt]

rjacobs: The ability to remove a particular room would depend on the size and how complex you want to make the systems -- since the room is within the building envelope .. it can't have no flow. A cold basement room can effect one above ... humidity will increase in the summer when a room gets no flow

It's all about ductwork and not going under the minimum flow of the unit.

As for the heat gain comment. A properly designed heat and ac system for a 2 story house will have some way of balancing winter and summer. More AC flow to the second floor. A single zone with typical thermostat in the lower level -- heat gain in the second floor will cause the system to run more if you are trying to cool the house .. most houses end up being too cold in the lower level to get the 2nd floor correct.

With zoning -- you can balance. I have found that if I just let the second floor float up in temp the system is not ramping up to cool spaces not occupied. It takes some trial and error to see how much you let it go. By the end of daylight as the heat gain flls the temps start to equalize. W/O all the heat gain when you call the system to bring down the second floor it has no problem doing so .. also ... if you need to use the space the system is available to take care of it.

With single sped equipment ... getting equal zones is very important -- with VS equipment the zones can be more out.

Being in a hot climate changes some items ... same with cold and heat pumps. If you need 6T of cooling or HP .... you need two systems.

It's very common to see two systems in a house -- one for up and one for down. It's easy and quick -- often they place them in an unconditioned attic and oversize them. How well they work depends on how close the size match to the load/

A better way IMO is to properly insulate -- this will reduce the equipment need (size) ... now a more advanced VS unit can do both areas -- The VS units are very quiet and do a great job with humidity.

 

[justinjoyal]

I have installed Honeywell zoning equipment with satisfaction, the latest being a 4 zones setup with an EIM for IAQ controls at the main Prestige tstat a wireless module for the other 3 Prestiges. Outdoor sensor for temp/humidity display and HP cutout.

Discharge sensor in place as well in case something goes wrong.

Works great!

 

[Jackfre]

Another option...perhaps, is to go with a boiler and individual air handlers for the various areas. You then have the boiler with the overall heat capacity and smaller localized duct work. You will need individual smaller condensing units. Tommy is right on in discussing the need for great care being taken on stuffing the ductwork into tight spaces and the system being tight and right.
The other option is to go with small multi-head mini-splits for the whole house. Or use the mini-splits for the outlying areas and then go with a simpler and smaller system for your primary living area. Less duct-work, individual room zoning and excellent efficiency. Both of these options eliminate the need for zone panels.
Sorry, but I just can't help but lend confusion to a straight question

 

[rjacobs]

Another option...perhaps, is to go with a boiler and individual air handlers for the various areas. You then have the boiler with the overall heat capacity and smaller localized duct work. You will need individual smaller condensing units. Tommy is right on in discussing the need for great care being taken on stuffing the ductwork into tight spaces and the system being tight and right.
The other option is to go with small multi-head mini-splits for the whole house. Or use the mini-splits for the outlying areas and then go with a simpler and smaller system for your primary living area. Less duct-work, individual room zoning and excellent efficiency. Both of these options eliminate the need for zone panels.
Sorry, but I just can't help but lend confusion to a straight question

NONE of that is going to happen with this home builder... None of it...

I already asked about a whole house mini split system...nope...

They tout that their houses are LEED certified and the A/C system is part of that... I responded with "running 2 HVAC units when half the house is un-used most of the time sure sounds like a fantastic way to waste electricity"... deer in headlights look from the home builder...

Same look I got when asking if their plumber and electrician would install a bypass valve setup and a 30a/220v switch to bypass and shutoff the 2nd water heater except when times we needed it... "why would you want to do that"....

Thats where my questions of installing certain things are coming up...

 

[Jackfre]

I have worked with many of the biggest builder, Lennar, Poulty, etc. Given what you are preparing to spend, to have so little capacity to select the day to day comfort options would have me looking elsewhere. I don’t know the TX market particularly, but the guy is late, and it is his game. Good luck with your build.

 

[rjacobs]

I have worked with many of the biggest builder, Lennar, Poulty, etc. Given what you are preparing to spend, to have so little capacity to select the day to day comfort options would have me looking elsewhere. I don’t know the TX market particularly, but the guy is late, and it is his game. Good luck with your build.

The sales people dont know ****... ive had issues from day 1 with them, but when we get with the people who specialize in certain aspects, they have been great.

I have my pre-build meeting with the actual builder/job foreman tomorrow and im guessing he will say "yea, lets get with the HVAC sub and chat"... I refuse to believe this is something they have not done before...

Like I said in my original post, I was simply trying to get a gauge of what something like this would cost so I can potentially call bull **** on my builder or think through doing it after the fact. 3-4k I believe is as high as I would be willing to go I think and even at that, the return on investment on energy savings is probably rated in decades...

 

[yeldogt]

The sales people dont know ****... ive had issues from day 1 with them, but when we get with the people who specialize in certain aspects, they have been great.

I have my pre-build meeting with the actual builder/job foreman tomorrow and im guessing he will say "yea, lets get with the HVAC sub and chat"... I refuse to believe this is something they have not done before...

Like I said in my original post, I was simply trying to get a gauge of what something like this would cost so I can potentially call bull **** on my builder or think through doing it after the fact. 3-4k I believe is as high as I would be willing to go I think and even at that, the return on investment on energy savings is probably rated in decades...

I think you will find it will cost more than that ...... as above you can't just close off parts of a system -- have to be balanced. Doing it wrong makes for noise and shorter life. Doing it right sounds like too much to ask for the builder to do the calculations and modification to the duct work. Homeowner to pay.

The builder has to warranty -- both time and performance

 

[Ohmthis]

I think you will find it will cost more than that ...... as above you can't just close off parts of a system -- have to be balanced. Doing it wrong makes for noise and shorter life. Doing it right sounds like too much to ask for the builder to do the calculations and modification to the duct work. Homeowner to pay.

The builder has to warranty -- both time and performance

I know areas around the world are different price wise, but I want to disagree. From the beginning of the HVAC job calculations must be done to make any job “correct” (I put that in quotations because, honestly it rarely happens). Adding some dampers, running a little extra wire, a little bit extra controls, and some more labor won’t hit the high end of his budget. I am over simplifying the “extras” on purpose, because of the different regions, equipment, and profit margins. All that said, the HVAC contractor is the resource that you will lean on the most here. If they are completely out in left field when you ask about duct design, zone panels, static pressures, and efficiency related to zoning a system, be careful. You want to hear things like manual J(whole house and preferably room to room), manual D (duct design for best performance and efficiency) manual S (correct size of equipment based on the two things mentioned prior). You may talk to a sales person with the HVAC company, they may promise things that can’t happen. Make sure you talk to the person installing and or designing things too. Hope this helps.

 

[peterlawl84]

so I apologize I haven't read all the responses. But I will say we built a house 3 years ago, did Honeywell. have 2 Hvac systems, each with 2 zones and 2 thermostats - 4 zones total (due to square footage, had to get a 2nd system as first system was not large enough).
It is nice to have different areas or zones at different settings, I was going to do a another additional zone (settled for 2) in the basement, but ran into an issue with ductwork and did not want to keep making the bulk head wider than it was already going to be in the basement (something for you to think about). We have 9' ceilings in the basement, but then where all the HVAC ductwork is, it drops to 8'.

I think its worth it as there are areas of the house we do not use regularly, so we set the zones to not come on as much. At night, when we want to bedrooms cooler for sleeping, we have that set to be cooler, but not cool the rest of the house.

Our current house is alittle over 3 times the square footage of our last house and our electric bill is within $100 of our old house (we still own it and in-laws live in it, so we see the electric bill). Now, we did make our current house energy star 3.0, so more insulation and other stuff too, but I feel like it is worth it overall given the amount we save each month on utilities.

 

[fitter30]

If you have unconditions rooms our only asking for problems with humidity and mold. High temp and humidity go to low temp and humidity. Calculations for cooling occupied rooms will be off. What happens when you want to use that space? You didn't mention have many sq. ft. your going to have and how the spaces are used. 2 story master down other bed rooms up?

 

[yeldogt]

I know areas around the world are different price wise, but I want to disagree. From the beginning of the HVAC job calculations must be done to make any job “correct” (I put that in quotations because, honestly it rarely happens). Adding some dampers, running a little extra wire, a little bit extra controls, and some more labor won’t hit the high end of his budget. I am over simplifying the “extras” on purpose, because of the different regions, equipment, and profit margins. All that said, the HVAC contractor is the resource that you will lean on the most here. If they are completely out in left field when you ask about duct design, zone panels, static pressures, and efficiency related to zoning a system, be careful. You want to hear things like manual J(whole house and preferably room to room), manual D (duct design for best performance and efficiency) manual S (correct size of equipment based on the two things mentioned prior). You may talk to a sales person with the HVAC company, they may promise things that can’t happen. Make sure you talk to the person installing and or designing things too. Hope this helps.

I believe the system add on was in the $1500 range .. plus the dampers. W/O install .. I forget how much or if the secondary thermostats are in the $1500 ... I don't think so ... that's after design and the added cost of the trunk work. Fr a development builder w/ profit .. I don't think that going to happen for 4k.

For a "dumb" system to work -- IE: one that's on and off .. everything must be balanced for it to work correctly with single stage equipment ... the zone equipment is less expensive.

Building all new ... why not try and get it correct for a lifetime of service.. even if the first go around is single stage.

 

[rjacobs]

Just back from my pre-construction meeting.

I got deer in the headlights of WHY I want to zone... They had no clue HOW the 2 HVAC systems split the house either... Although the builder foreman thought the up-stairs was its own zone already...

SO they are going to get their HVAC sub contractor to get in contact with me to discuss what I want... The whole system size needs to change anyway because we were supposed to option in the spray foam in the attic like 3 months ago...except their sales people said wait until your pre-construction meeting...

So....to be continued...

 

[fitter30]

I'm confused you say the builder is leed certified.Then there are 4 certification levels— Silver, Gold, Platinum and Certified. You earn credits for specific items, projects or additions that are included in your home, and the number of credits/points that you get equals the certification level your home achieves. From the building envelop to hvac would be addressed. This certification is the highest in the country. All the room loads, cfms,humidity levels and outside air requirements have to met.

 

[rjacobs]

Well, long story short, the HVAC guys said nothing they can do...

I have about a 99% suspicion that my desires did not get passed along correctly.

I talked to my buddy who does HVAC and he says "not a problem to install after the fact" and I asked about a dump valve to keep things from over pressurizing and he said thats one way or you can trim air off into the rest of the rooms.

So I really didnt push the builder to hard as they seem pretty clueless when it comes to this request. The only thing I found out is the upstairs is "on a different zone" than the downstairs and when I asked "ok then the house is setup as 1 system downstairs and 2 upstairs" the sales guy just said "I dont know, they just said upstairs is a different zone than downstairs"... Clueless...

I may try one more time to get in touch with their HVAC people directly because I cant believe what I want is really impossible to do...

 

[yeldogt]

Well, long story short, the HVAC guys said nothing they can do...

I have about a 99% suspicion that my desires did not get passed along correctly.

I talked to my buddy who does HVAC and he says "not a problem to install after the fact" and I asked about a dump valve to keep things from over pressurizing and he said thats one way or you can trim air off into the rest of the rooms.

So I really didnt push the builder to hard as they seem pretty clueless when it comes to this request. The only thing I found out is the upstairs is "on a different zone" than the downstairs and when I asked "ok then the house is setup as 1 system downstairs and 2 upstairs" the sales guy just said "I dont know, they just said upstairs is a different zone than downstairs"... Clueless...

I may try one more time to get in touch with their HVAC people directly because I cant believe what I want is really impossible to do...

I'm not surprised.

There are particular faults in humans ... "we always do it that way" .... that's the really bad one. "I do it this way and it works" is another that can also get you in trouble.

I'm not sure when "zoning" forced air systems started ..but, I grew up in a big old house that my parents rebuilt and expanded in the 50's before I was around. It was all zoned with Honeywell equipment. My parents just got lucky that the local oil dealer sent one of his son to engineering school. It was a large family business with a metal shop and a lot of talent.

Most HVAC outfits just don't see the profit in doing anything different. It's a very scattered business ... you are working with two problems. Development building is the another ... It's very constrained. They last thing any builder wants is doing anything different ... they want the project done. It's sad ... but, the buyer is just a check.

I have found that guys that do zoning do a lot of it ... it's no big thing. They also tend to use the better equipment .. work on better projects. It also not size specific -- I have found small one operator guys that do it very well .. my last job was a larger outfit.

It been common to install two systems in many houses -- up and down. When you point out that the second system in the attic is not in a conditioned space -- you get a deer look. I say .... "it's like putting it all outside" .. again ...

Typically they say ... "we do it all the time and it works" ... yes ..it can be made to work ... but -- at what cost? The cost is oversizing the system to overcome all the heat it's working in and the customer has a lifetime of higher energy costs ... and other problems (pressure differentials). But the house is cool -- or hot.

The key for the OP is to make sure he had the proper ducts going to each room and they can some how separate them out .. think he is going to have problems

 

[rjacobs]

It been common to install two systems in many houses -- up and down. When you point out that the second system in the attic is not in a conditioned space -- you get a deer look. I say .... "it's like putting it all outside" .. again ...

Typically they say ... "we do it all the time and it works" ... yes ..it can be made to work ... but -- at what cost? The cost is oversizing the system to overcome all the heat it's working in and the customer has a lifetime of higher energy costs ... and other problems (pressure differentials). But the house is cool -- or hot.

The key for the OP is to make sure he had the proper ducts going to each room and they can some how separate them out .. think he is going to have problems

I wouldnt say "I am going to have problems"... Im sure their "as designed" system works perfectly well and is designed adequately for the house. Now, will it do what I want it to do, doubtful, but I have learned one thing is that if you throw money at a problem, it generally can get solved... so after I move into the house I will see how much money it will take to solve this problem and my guess is I will do nothing about it because I will run cost vs. benefit and cost will probably lose.

I am doing spray foam in this house so the dual HVAC air handler units in the attic will be in conditioned space(or as conditioned as you can get it in Texas).

 

[yeldogt]

I wouldnt say "I am going to have problems"... Im sure their "as designed" system works perfectly well and is designed adequately for the house. Now, will it do what I want it to do, doubtful, but I have learned one thing is that if you throw money at a problem, it generally can get solved... so after I move into the house I will see how much money it will take to solve this problem and my guess is I will do nothing about it because I will run cost vs. benefit and cost will probably lose.

I am doing spray foam in this house so the dual HVAC air handler units in the attic will be in conditioned space(or as conditioned as you can get it in Texas).

Well ... with proper spray foam you solve a host of problems.

What spray foam does add on the problem side is sizing -- you have to really size the units correctly. If they use the regular models that oversize anyway -- it's really oversized with foam.

You should sit down and figure out the SF for each system -- distance for ducts for each unit.

It may be most cost effective to see if you can bump the systems up to at least two speed compressors and VS blowers. Then factor in the rooms you want to zone off -- a zone damper that only closes part of the way may be all you need. Foam and equipment that able to take advantage of the foam is a great combination

You will get more comfort with two speed compressors. The new Bosh unit is a lot of bang for the buck. What system do they use ? Even the new Goodman/ AMANA line is nice

 

[rjacobs]

Well ... with proper spray foam you solve a host of problems.

What spray foam does add on the problem side is sizing -- you have to really size the units correctly. If they use the regular models that oversize anyway -- it's really oversized with foam.

You should sit down and figure out the SF for each system -- distance for ducts for each unit.

It may be most cost effective to see if you can bump the systems up to at least two speed compressors and VS blowers. Then factor in the rooms you want to zone off -- a zone damper that only closes part of the way may be all you need. Foam and equipment that able to take advantage of the foam is a great combination

You will get more comfort with two speed compressors. The new Bosh unit is a lot of bang for the buck. What system do they use ? Even the new Goodman/ AMANA line is nice

At this point, I cant realistically do anything until we are in the house. I dont think it would be worth it to tear out what they put in(even if I can sell it for a good amount) and replace it. Cost vs. benefit analysis will probably poo poo that also.

I mean, if I do all the zoning that I am envisioning, I might save $5 a month on electricity... Im estimating to do what I want is 2500-3000 dollars... Thats a 50 YEAR return on investment. Even if I say its $10 a month and the low end of my estimate for zoning its a 20 year return on investment. I already struggled with the 5000 dollar spray foam that will take ~20 years to recoup the investment, although from everything I read the intangibles of that are far greater than the efficiency gain in monetary terms...

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Putting in an ecobee zoned stat system would probably give you similar energy savings with a hell of a lot less initial overhead.

Tommy

 

[rjacobs]

Putting in an ecobee zoned stat system would probably give you similar energy savings with a hell of a lot less initial overhead.

Tommy

Possibly.

I know I looked into the Ecobee vs. Nest when I moved into this current house 5 years ago. I went with a simple Honeywell Wifi thermostat at that point and have been happy with it. I think, at the time, Ecobee could only talk to 1 other temp sensor, maybe 2... Nest had none and where my thermostat is(in my current house) is in a hallway that I rarely walk down, so the Nest was a poor choice, again, at the time.

I will check out and see what new stuff has come along since then.

 

[yeldogt]

IMO -- Spray is for comfort. Same with Zoning .... do you save some money each month ..sure. Will you get the payback? Who knows. Maybe not

What I do know is a spray foamed building is comfortable and quiet --- no drafts. Even when forced to do thin coating in an old building -- up against roof deck in a cathedral ceiling. It works. No heat gain and no cold walls.

With foam the equipment sizing drops -- less expensive .. less noise. In a humid area sized correctly -- the better equipment is really great.

As I said .......the nice thing about zoning is really about keeping the area you are in at the temp you want vs turning off the others. The VS w/ zoning is also great with radiant for final balancing.

It's a shame you can't just bump up the equipment quality -- it the same cost to install. You get the comfort of the equipment and savings of running on low most of the time.

 

[justsam]

Sounds like you are trying to have a custom home, from a production home builder. I did this once, in Southlake Texas. It takes time and patience, and there will be several retakes as all the subcontractors virtually run from scripts that woe to you if you try to alter. I made virtually daily visits to the home to make sure the added wiring, the different plumbing fixtures, etc. were really in place. Most of the time, the answer was no, they just followed their script for that particular model. Imagine trying to convince them to run some HVAC into a closet for example, which was going to house network and audio equipment!

Fight the battles you can, focus on getting the ones done right that will require the most dry wall removal to remedy later and let the others be done later.

 

[rjacobs]

Sounds like you are trying to have a custom home, from a production home builder. I did this once, in Southlake Texas. It takes time and patience, and there will be several retakes as all the subcontractors virtually run from scripts that woe to you if you try to alter. I made virtually daily visits to the home to make sure the added wiring, the different plumbing fixtures, etc. were really in place. Most of the time, the answer was no, they just followed their script for that particular model. Imagine trying to convince them to run some HVAC into a closet for example, which was going to house network and audio equipment!

Fight the battles you can, focus on getting the ones done right that will require the most dry wall removal to remedy later and let the others be done later.

Thats where I am at almost to the T...

Ive gotten the "big" items taken care of and its these "small", albeit possibly expensive, things to remedy later.

 

[Ohmthis]

I added my advice on the design of the possible HVAC systems. I want to advise on building. I agree with above. It seems your builder is not a custom builder, but builds to a niche so to speak. He is going to build a nice efficient home, but his way. Now is the time to have designs down and implement them as the build goes on. Not after the fact. Changing one part of the design skews the rest in a good or bad way. Your investment can be better applied if you plan now for the plan of later. Don’t be set on a price point, I promise you things can and will change as the build progresses. Instead look at what VALUE you get out of the price. I have built several homes for myself, the last two being full custom. I scrutinized over the infrastructure of the home to make future upgrades viable and easier to implement. Why did it cost? Less than .05% the cost of the home. These were already going in, but tweaked to my design. Even at $600,000 that’s only $30,000. People pay that for a car that is worthless in 10-12 years.

 

[yeldogt]

I always cringe when I hear the word "Custom" .. even a little when I hear "we are building a new home" .. until I get more information.

Building and buying within a development is typically so restricted and modifications so expensive -- trying to do anything outside of what's specifically allowed .. almost impossible. Even the high end builders like Toll ... they give you possibilities.

It's really important to not buy a Chevy and try and turn it into a Cadillac -- You never get the money back.

Even builders who call themselves "custom" often are not -- if they build stock plans .. you often run into the same problem.

Another issue is the subs .. most use "Vanilla" of everything .. anything odd is outside the wheel house.

Just had this issue at my sisters house in FL -- she retired early .. moved from CA. She liked the area and new development .... she was renting a property that was built by the same builder. Her master bathroom was done on the cheap .. she bought the lot with the understanding that he would install a wall toilet as we could not fix that easily. The rest of the bath was done just so it would get the CO. The kitchen was decent .... this was a 700k house in FL. All the light fixtures got replaced -- dishwasher / faucets ...

Once the CO came and it was insured -- the bath was done.

 

[Texsun]

I've had the Honeywell HZ432 installed on 3 HVAC systems since 2013 with no problems. Wireless thermostats TH6320 have been flawless as well.

 

[nsula_country]

Our house is "zoned".

2 story house. 3.5T HP downstairs, 2.5T HP upstairs, open staircase. Balance the thermostats and it zones well! Other than bedrooms and bathrooms it is an open floor plan. Cooling and heating seasons require setting the tstats to utilize the "cheating air" through the staircase. Winter heat rises, summer cool air falls.

That was a funny. Zoning has its place. But TOTAL installation from design to programming has to be followed for it to work as intended. Not to mention adding complexity and points of maintenance/failure.

With improvements in insulation, windows, doors, ect along with higher efficiency HVAC equipment; personally I don't see the need for zoning in a "normal" residential setup. If ducting is properly designed, good to go. Start shutting down rooms, air has to go somewhere. Over condition other areas or dump back into return. Could even cause short cycle conditions if too many areas are zoned off.

Best investment you can make is spray foam. Seals air intrusion cracks and insulates.

Negative is air handlers in attic will catch hell first couple of years. Outgassing of chemicals from foam and building material when reacts with condensate creates an corrosive atmosphere. Steel and copper will corrode.

$0.02.

CT