Hooking up a generator

[Rickstir]

Our new to us house is on a well and is out in the country. We are concerned about an outage and want to get a backup generator. Never been involved with a generator. Questions, How would I hook up the well, icebox, freezer, etc to the generator? Is this done through extension cords, through the circuit breaker or what?
Thanks guys

 

[markyfly]

I'm assuming your talking about hooking up a small 6000 watt or less portable generator?

I could never recommend just running extension cords outside to it. Cords get crushed around doors can easily become a fire hazard, also most people don't bother to properly ground their portable generators. Dumb dumb dumb.

The best way it to have a sub panel box installed with an interlocking transfer switch. And have that feed the circuits you want backed up.

Then you would need to install an outdoor 30 amp male connector where you would connect to the generator.

This way the process is as easy as wheel the generator outside, plug it in, start it up, and go flip the interlocking transfer switch and voilà, Power.

This also ensures that your generator will be properly grounded. Very important since a lot of people don't bother to shut them off to refuel, dumb dumb dumb.

However many of the big box home improvement stores now have generators capable of whole home backup. That can run on LPG or NG and have automatic transfer switches that will ensure your never without power for more than a few seconds

 

[MagKarl]

I use a portable generator, and hook it up when I need it. I run a cord to a 30A outdoor plug that goes to a generator breaker in the panel. The panel has an interlock cover that requires disconnecting from the main to switch over to generator.

 

[CNGsaves]

Search and read prior GJ threads on backup generator or standby generator as lots of good prior information. Click on Search in above black line, then Advanced Search and try different key words like: backup generator, standby generator, whole house generator, interlock breaker, transfer switch, etc. Can also use Google to search inside GJ . . . . Example is Google following:
backup generator site:garagejournal.com

General rule of thumb is get GenSet running without a load, then slowly add circuits/load to see what the genny can handle. This is when you're doing it all manual using extension cords.

Next step up is interlock breaker which shuts down main electrical panel breaker and has separate dedicated breaker that connects to GenSet to feed electrical power to your house. Start off with NO breakers turned on and generator warming up to operating temperature. Then slowly click on breakers of critical items like frig, furnace, etc.

Ultimate setup is automatic transfer switch that is wired by professional electrician to manage electric loads when PoCo loses power. The GenSet kicks on automatically (ie like a Guardian whole house standby genset) and powers all your needs.

It all depends on MONEY that you plan on spending.

 

[David Paul]

What marky said.

 

[checkthisout]

Whole house transfer switch is the way to go.

I always used to cheat. I put a 110/220 outlet then made a male/male cord to power the whole house although just merely mentioning this will give electricians and linemen a heart attack.

My new house came with a 6 circuit transfer switch which is a pain because then I can only run 6 circuits instead of the whole house.

 

[kc-steve]

There are "covered" male outlets available at box stores made for setting up a generator so you can use a standard extension cord. And then just run a dedicated line back to the main box. I leave that circuit breaker in a default OFF position until I need it, and then I can also shut off the main breaker to avoid electrocuting a line worker down line. But I know what I'm doing. I wouldn't recommend it for the typical DYI'er.

Also look at your own household for microprocessor based appliances and entertainment stuff. Make sure yo shut those off to avoid zapping them with unregulated voltages. Even newer fridges have microprocessors now days. So like I said, if you know what you are doing then go for it. If not, then ignore what I wrote.

Steve

 

[Rickstir]

Thanks I will have a professional do all this work

 

[cdd1]

I always used to cheat. I put a 110/220 outlet then made a male/male cord to power the whole house although just merely mentioning this will give electricians and linemen a heart attack.

There's a reason the male/male plugs are called suicide cables. It's fine until you accidentally touch the plug. Then things get 'not fine' real quick.

As others have said, transfer switch is the way to go.

 

[Scsmith42]

I'm assuming your talking about hooking up a small 6000 watt or less portable generator?

I could never recommend just running extension cords outside to it. Cords get crushed around doors can easily become a fire hazard, also most people don't bother to properly ground their portable generators. Dumb dumb dumb.

The best way it to have a sub panel box installed with an interlocking transfer switch. And have that feed the circuits you want backed up.

Then you would need to install an outdoor 30 amp male connector where you would connect to the generator.

This way the process is as easy as wheel the generator outside, plug it in, start it up, and go flip the interlocking transfer switch and voilà, Power.

This also ensures that your generator will be properly grounded. Very important since a lot of people don't bother to shut them off to refuel, dumb dumb dumb.

However many of the big box home improvement stores now have generators capable of whole home backup. That can run on LPG or NG and have automatic transfer switches that will ensure your never without power for more than a few seconds

Ricks tier, this is good advice above. I have 8 generators here on the farm, ranging from 5500 watt single phase propane units up to 225kw diesel sets, with a lot of 9kw- 12kw units.

Some random thoughts.

First choice for fuel (if it is available ) would be natural gas. NG rarely is in short supply during a widespread outage, so you don't have to worry about running out of fuel or the fuel going bad.

Second choice is propane, as it too does not go bad. Figure on about .25 gallon per hour of fuel consumption per 1k watts. A 125 gallon propane tank will operate a 5500 watt generator for around 3.5 days.

Personally I prefer diesel as my 3rd choice, because these units are usually industrially rated and also because I usually have several hundred gallons of fuel available on my farm at any given time. Gasoline is my 4th choice, but if you don't have diesel fuel avail you should consider it for your 3rd choice.

Often times during an outage the local gas stations are closed due to lack of power. You need to have a strategy for having fresh fuel available.

A whole house generator with an automatic transfer switch (ATS) is the ideal solution as it starts and transfers the load automatically if you are not around. It's also the most costly. An ATS is also usually set up to start and exercise the generator weekly, as many people find that when they need their generator during an outage it won't start because it has been sitting unused for 2 years...

Second best option is a smaller generator that only operates the critical circuits via an ATS wired to a dedicated sub panel. This is what I have backing up my own home. The well pump, livestock fences, barn lights, and household circuits such as kitchen, bathroom, master bedroom, tv/computers and furnace are all wired to the sub panel. If I am not home and the power goes out my wife does not have to do anything - the critical circuits are powered up automatically.

Next option down the list is to use a manual transfer switch in lieu of an ATS, preferably hooked to a sub panel.

Next down is the extension cord route.

You can spend anywhere from a few hundred bucks up to 20k or more on a system.

Some of the best brands are Kohler and Cummins Onan for large generators. EPS also makes a very good unit.

Personally I have seen too many failures on Generacs to be comfortable recommending them.

It's a good idea to exercise your generator every month or two when you are not using it.


Scott

 

[Norcal]

If a gen is used with a automatic transfer switch, it is required to be sized for the entire load, this could get real costly if load shedding is not used.


This topic belongs in the electrical forum.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Lots of generator discussions on this board. Look in the Electrical and Lighting Forum. I did ask Ryan to move this over to that forum.

Lots of choices for fuels, sizes, type of connection to the house, needs, amount of dollars to spend, etc.

I went with a small diesel generator and outside connection on the house with an interlock on the breaker panel. I am compentent to move the generator into position, unroll and connect the cord, and manage the loads on the system. If you are not, or you expect your significant other to need to operate it while you are not there, you will need to spend more money to automate the process and cover all your possibilities.

Charles

 

[HOTFR8]

Topic moved to Lighting & Electrical.

 

[TractorJeff]

I needed one for the well pump (220) and the fridge. Put it on the someday list. Well? Now its not so important, kids grown up, wife learned not to flush till 1. either the power is back on or 2. I get home. We heat with wood, so no one will freeze!
85% of the time the electric comes back on in less than 4hrs.
Funny thing is I work at a "Generator Packager" but the smallest we typically have sitting around is 100kw on a Diesel! No sense in asking to borrow one is by the time you got it home and set up, power would be back!
If I was the OP, I would research the whole cord/portable verses a NG or LPG unit on an ATS. Reasoning is to research North-East and the Flood Disaster a couple of years ago. No Gasoline available and Natural Gas was spotty depending on where the water damaged the lines. Leaves you with LPG or Diesel. Then think about how long some of those houses were without power. Some were as long as 3 weeks! Now figure out how you are going to allocate power verses fuel consumption on that one! Remembering my #2 is the reason why you want to think about an ATS unit. Your wife and kids will need that power before you get home! If someone talks you(convinces) into going portable, then remember it will need to be run at least once every couple of months to insure that it will start when needed!

 

[ixlr8]

I am having a new SquareD electrical panel put in, to replace the fire prone FPE panel. I am also having a generator socket wired in so I can feed the panel. I am going to set it up with breaker interlock device to keep things safe, as I didn't want to limit what I could power with the generator. And there is not enough room for a transfer box near the existing panel. What do folks recommend to monitor the power legs to ensure they are properly balanced?
Thanks

 

[aandpdan]

What do folks recommend to monitor the power legs to ensure they are properly balanced?

Monitoring may help you know if you are unbalanced but really it comes down to planning how you distribute loads in the panel - especially using an interlock. Ideally the panel should be fairly well balanced during installation. Put the boiler/furnace on one leg and the refrigerator on the other for example. Your 240 volt loads are already balanced.

You can't change the leg anyways, short of unplugging something and running an extension cord to another circuit.

You don't have to have them perfect either.

You can get loadmeters, like this:

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Reliance-Controls-MB75/p1087.html?utm_source=google+shopping&utm_medium=shop+portals&utm_campaign=MB75&gclid=CJ-b7Ye-oMICFQQQ7AodCkEA_Q

 

[theoldwizard1]

First, as others have said, SEARCH is you friend on GJ ! LOTS and LOTS of threads on this topic and "more than one way to skin a cat"

I'm assuming your talking about hooking up a small 6000 watt or less portable generator?

If you have a well, you will likely need a generator capable of 240V. Careful usage of your appliances, will let you get by with less watts, maybe as low as 3000 watts.

When it comes to generators, bigger is NOT better. You have to "feed the beast". Likely gasoline. It your area is prone to power outages, you should have 10-20 gallons of gasoline of hand at all times, but gasoline does not store well for long periods. About every 3-4 months, dump 5 gallons into your vehicle and refill the can. Yeah, pain in the **** ! You can convert a portable generator to run on natural gas or propane (Google Motor Snorkel).

The best way it to have a sub panel box installed with an interlocking transfer switch. And have that feed the circuits you want backed up.

Ehhh ???? I don't understand. The point of installing an interlock is to AVOID having to install a subpanel !

• Plug generator in and start it up
• Turn main breaker off
• Turn off breaker on heavy loads that are not required (A/C, electric water heater, electric stove, electric dryer, etc)
• If you have BOTH a well and a sump pump, turn he well circuit breaker OFF, but leave the sump pump breaker ON. When you loose too much pressure in your water tank, turn the sump pump off and the well on untill the pressure builds up again (a few minutes). Flip breakers back the other way.
• Turn on generator breaker

 

[sourdough]

I went with a small diesel generator and outside connection on the house with an interlock on the breaker panel. I am compentent to move the generator into position, unroll and connect the cord, and manage the loads on the system. If you are not, or you expect your significant other to need to operate it while you are not there, you will need to spend more money to automate the process and cover all your possibilities.

Charles

Charles, as always, is correct. He has posted on many similar threads about having an interlock in the main panel to completely isolate the power company (POCO) feed from the genset feed to eliminate any possibility of a backfeed when the POCO feed is restored. I have used this method for over 7 years and it works flawlessly, and is much cheaper than a transfer switch with portable emergency gensets.

Would like to add (per my bold on his post) that you need to calculate the various loads of each appliance in watts (V x A = W; a KW is 1000W), including amperage inrush for a few seconds [for refrigerators, use the locked rotor amps (LRA)] for your genset surge rating and add up all your needed equipment during a power failure. Depending upon the size of your genset, you may need to share power between loads during genset on-time.

Depending upon the situation at hand, you may need more house heating, or preservation of food, or other. Your decision.

My situation in an extended outage: I have a 5600W (8600W surge) gasoline genset and I need to keep a refer/freezer and 2 freezers cold enough to prevent spoilage/damage, along with a propane forced-air furnace to heat the house to 74* (and allow it to degrade to the mid-60's during off-time). (Oven/range and domestic water heater are propane.)

I have tested it many times over the past 7 years using a operational checkout sheet that I have typed out for my wife (who is not extremely emergency power savvy) for her to use in case I die or am physically incapacitated. (Believe it or not, it is stored in her main cookbook where she can find it!) We have brought over neighbors and relatives to run through this scenario and ding me on my procedure, and I have rewritten it due to the very pertinent and correct critiques for folks not as savvy as you and me. I have also tagged various circuit breakers with red dots (must-have stuff) and yellow dots (for minimal acceptable/needed lighting and power).

IMO, at this point that procedure could be used by a teenager who reads well.

Hope this helps.

Jim

 

[theoldwizard1]

My situation in an extended outage: I have a 5600W (8600W surge) gasoline genset ...

I hope you keep 10-20 gallons of "fresh" gasoline on hand ! That would last you about 1.5-2.0 days !!

 

[markietas]

Ehhh ???? I don't understand. The point of installing an interlock is to AVOID having to install a subpanel !

• Plug generator in and start it up
• Turn main breaker off
• Turn off breaker on heavy loads that are not required (A/C, electric water heater, electric stove, electric dryer, etc)
• If you have BOTH a well and a sump pump, turn he well circuit breaker OFF, but leave the sump pump breaker ON. When you loose too much pressure in your water tank, turn the sump pump off and the well on untill the pressure builds up again (a few minutes). Flip breakers back the other way.
• Turn on generator breaker

As per most codes you still need an interlock to insure no power back feeds to protect the linemen and equipment ect.

The purpose of then interlock so so that someone can't forget to tun off the main.

And as far as turning breakers on and off constantly that's gonna get old real fast for most people if the outage is longer than half a day or so.

 

[theoldwizard1]

As per most codes you still need an interlock to insure no power back feeds to protect the linemen and equipment ect.

The purpose of then interlock so so that someone can't forget to tun off the main.

I agree 100% !

And as far as turning breakers on and off constantly that's gonna get old real fast for most people if the outage is longer than half a day or so.

The only condition hat would require flipping breakers would be if you bought a smaller generator (say 3000W continuous) yet had a 240V well and 240V sump pump.

Sure you could have bought the 5000W continuous generator for more money, but it also consumes more fuel. Hits you in the wallet twice !!

Some "interesting" work with relays could prevent both pumps from running at the same time.

 

[checkthisout]

Also make sure you purchase an invertor generator. Worth every penny.

 

[jeff_DD]

I googled "motor snorkel" and they have a cool idea. But I do not think it is safe, because their venturi insert is made out of plastic and rubber. So I went with Century Fuel Products' kit.

Here is their link: Generator Conversion kits to Natural Gas or Propane Page.

 

[sberry]

I agree that too big gets expensive too quickly. Conservation is effort well spent when it comes to outage. There is nothing wrong with cord and plug, no one says you have to shear it off in a doorway, some care is in order.
But rather than turning on the circuits you want its often easier to turn off ones you don't such as water heaters or electric heat not managed.
I have some issues myself I could stand to resolve, time and money concerns don't help.

 

[olytdi]

This thread has me re-thinking my entire back up generator plan....

My plan has gone from standby system (I've researched the **** out of this and come away uninspired in terms of reliability), to trifuel portable (powerland 10K), to my current idea of an inverter portable (honda or yamaha). My rationale:

Standby is too expensive for the reliability I'm seeing across the board. Also probably overkill for my needs given that my home heat and hot water are gas. All I need is to power some lights, fridge and freezer, TV, pc, and a microwave. But...it needs to be 220v and go through the panel -- no extension cord ********.

Big cheaper trifuel genset: too loud. Not willing to do that to my neighbors. NG hog too.

Either Honda or Yamaha inverter genset converted to trifuel: Quiet! Expensive! but probably the best selection in terms of fuel economy (40% less), noise, reliability, and cleaner power. The cost will hurt initially but will I care two years from now (or after a week-long outage)? Probably not.

My other considerations are that I probably don't need more than 4K watts and I have NG already available.

BTW, going with a standby or larger loud but cheaper genset would require upsizing the gas meter at a cost of $800! Makes looking at expensive, quiet, reliable, multifuel inverter gennies more compelling.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Also make sure you purchase an invertor generator. Worth every penny.

AGREE !

Sadly, the Honda and Yamaha inverter product line are now WAY OVERPRICED ! The technology has matured over the past 5 years. The Chinese have developed a single IC chip that does most of the difficult work in generating the sine wave out that only costs a few dollars in volume. A $5-$10 computer chip will handle the throttle control.

The cost difference from a non-inverter to an inverter generator could actually be LOWER if they can use rare earth magnets instead of a a copper wound rotor.

 

[theoldwizard1]

This thread has me re-thinking my entire back up generator plan....

Using that gray matter builds muscle !

Either Honda or Yamaha inverter genset converted to trifuel: Quiet! Expensive! but probably the best selection in terms of fuel economy (40% less), noise, reliability, and cleaner power. The cost will hurt initially but will I care two years from now (or after a week-long outage)? Probably not.

Tri-fuel is only a good idea if you are likely to experience an outage longer than about 12-24 hours.

My other considerations are that I probably don't need more than 4K watts and I have NG already available.

During Super Storm Sandy, some areas lost NG service. This is VERY UNUSUAL ! I'm certain that those areas could get a propane delivery so ...


This is not an endorsement as I have not used any of the equipment, Check into Champion Power Equipment. Yes, it is made in China, but it is a US owned and operated company. They stock all parts "on-shore".

Another Chinese brand worth checking out is Boliy.

Also remember that if you buy one small (2000 watt) generator and it is not sufficient, you can buy a second one !

 

[sierrarat]

I am building a new house in Nevada and have installed a male outlet on the patio to plug my Honda generator into. This plug feeds a separate female out let behind the refrigerator and the pellet stove. I can plug a light into the stove outlet and have some light, but I will have heat and the refrigerator won't stop working. This is a completely seperate circuit not connected to any other house current.

 

[olytdi]

I am building a new house in Nevada and have installed a male outlet on the patio to plug my Honda generator into. This plug feeds a separate female out let behind the refrigerator and the pellet stove. I can plug a light into the stove outlet and have some light, but I will have heat and the refrigerator won't stop working. This is a completely seperate circuit not connected to any other house current.

That's interesting but I'm wondering why you did that. Wouldn't it be more useful to simply wire that inlet male to your panel with an interlock? That way, you could load manage manually to any circuits you choose to, not just your fridge and stove. Also, you could use any size genset in the future and simply power more things if you wanted to. Complete flexibility. Simply open any breakers you don't want powered...

 

[theoldwizard1]

I am building a new house in Nevada and have installed a male outlet on the patio to plug my Honda generator into. This plug feeds a separate female out let behind the refrigerator and the pellet stove. I can plug a light into the stove outlet and have some light, but I will have heat and the refrigerator won't stop working. This is a completely seperate circuit not connected to any other house current.

+1! Simple, inexpensive.

If you position those outlets well, you might be able to swap in a different kitchen appliance and run a light and TV in the other room !

 

[markyfly]

+1! Simple, inexpensive.



If you position those outlets well, you might be able to swap in a different kitchen appliance and run a light and TV in the other room !

How is running several new circuits simple and inexpensive?

 

[markyfly]

I am building a new house in Nevada and have installed a male outlet on the patio to plug my Honda generator into. This plug feeds a separate female out let behind the refrigerator and the pellet stove. I can plug a light into the stove outlet and have some light, but I will have heat and the refrigerator won't stop working. This is a completely seperate circuit not connected to any other house current.

How do you accomplish grounding and bonding?