Hooking up a home backup portable generator

[Travinsky]

I am getting a portable generator soon as a precaution and need advice on what to get and how to wire (e.g. should I hire a pro etc). Maybe another panel, I dunno and am really confused.

So I've been watching a ton of youtube videos and am still confused on the best and cheapest route to take. My house was hit by Hurricane Irma and lost many electronics. I can't afford to replace everything but want to have a safety plan in place first before I start replacing what was lost.

Pictures tell a complete story so below I have the palm that was hit by lightning and there was a elec receptacle landscaping box with 12ga cable right next to it that affected the entire house. Pics of my outdoor panel, indoor panel (dog jumping while taking pic), garage tools, computer gear, HVAC and box for FPL to turn off HVAC during times of high demand.

The main panel is on the west side of house and 70 feet away the garage, computer room and HVAC are on the east side.

Is there a way I can get work done and not worry about electrical/storm issues when I am using either the computer/printer or fiddling in the garage?

I need a plan and what to buy before I hire someone if I need to. I am fairly handy but will gladly pay a pro if it's the way to go.

I see link written but photos not show.

http://travisusa.imgur.com

I think this worked..

 

[Falcon67]

The best way to hook a smaller - say 6500w types - portable gen to a house - IMHO - is to use extension cords to run your essential items. If you are buying one large enough to run your HVAC and the other loads then you need to call in an electrician to install a transfer switch on your main feed. This is non-trivial work.

 

[Fasthotrod]

I hate to say it, but when you say, "best and cheapest" you'll likely need to clarify which one you really want. The 'best' is not cheap, and cheap is not the best.

The first thing you want to do is set a budget. That will help you make a realistic decision regarding what you are about to do. If money isn't that much of a concern compared to what you want to accomplish, then just lay out what you know you want/need to be powered on your generator, and then you can plan from there.

I'll give you an example: My father in law is on oxygen, so his immediate need is to have the oxygen machine on at all times. He doesn't want to have to switch to a portable O2 bottle, then drag out a portable generator, hook it up, and all of that. So in his case, the function far outweighed the costs... so we went with a fixed outdoor generator with an automatic transfer switch. The transfer switch will automatically sense the power going out, start the generator, and then switch the house over to generator power. When power comes back, the ATS detects that power is back, gives it about 10 minutes to prove that it's stable, and then transfers back to commercial. After a slight cool down time, the generator shuts off.

In this instance, we installed the transfer switch between the main utility meter and the electrical panel. There wasn't a whole lot of wiring that needed to be changed, so the installation went rather well. The cost difference between one that would power his machine and a few things in the house vs. powering the whole house (and HVAC) wasn't that much... so they went with a 20kW unit and haven't looked back. (About $4,700 plus installation.)

If you want to go with a portable unit, then you'll have to figure out what loads you want to service with your generator. You can run drop cords to those loads, or you can plan on having an electrician rewire your house so that you have a generator sub-panel that you can manually switch between your main panel and generator with an interlocked breaker.

Or you can get a new main panel that has a set of interlocked breakers so that you can switch the entire house over... but if you don't have a large enough generator, you run the risk of popping breakers, overloading your equipment, and potentially damaging your stuff with a brown out. (Low voltage situation.)

For what it's worth, I've been in the 'power' business for about 28 years... if you don't have the background in electrical, I'd recommend talking to some people here and finding a good local electrician that can help you get what you want. Good luck with your decision.

Mark

 

[slow]

What are your critical loads that you want to cover during a storm?

What fuel if any do you have on or available on the property. How long do you want to be able to operate without power.

Is operating budget a concern?

I personally have a honda EU2000i and a Generac 15,000 gasoline generator for my hurricane preparedness. The Honda for the refrigerator and a small fan. The Generac will run the entire house. (not hooked up yet, will be connected with a generator interlock at the main breaker to feed the entire house, I will only use critical loads, so no waterheater or other loads other than the AC, lights and fan, and I plan to only run the Generac to run the AC. I estimate the 15,000 watt generac will use 30-35 gallons of gasoline per 24 hours of run time. The Honda should do the same 24 hours on 3 gallons or less of fuel.

 

[EOC_Jason]

If you are worried about power surges, you should look into a whole house surge protector...

I installed this Square-D one on my house, but Eaton makes several, Siemens, etc...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CONA1OQ/?tag=atomicindus08-20

There are also surge protectors for your phone line & cable line too, which you should also get if you have those coming into your house. (I only have fiber so I don't have to worry.)

Generators are a whole different discussion which others have already talked about.

 

[Travinsky]

I hate to say it, but when you say, "best and cheapest" you'll likely need to clarify which one you really want. The 'best' is not cheap, and cheap is not the best.

Meant to write best value.

What are your critical loads that you want to cover during a storm?

What fuel if any do you have on or available on the property. How long do you want to be able to operate without power.

Is operating budget a concern?

Most important is computer equipment and a fridge, freezer and portable ac. House AC and tools are secondary.

No fuel on property - only 3 LP 20# for BBQ

Need to operate 6 hours per day for 4-5 days now during hurricane season.

Operating budget is $5,000

 

[Travinsky]

If you are worried about power surges, you should look into a whole house surge protector...

I installed this Square-D one on my house, but Eaton makes several, Siemens, etc...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CONA1OQ/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Thank you I have a whole house surge protector installed onto the meter outside but FPL says it's only for big items like stove, water heater, etc. So I'll look at getting one of those installed asap.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The best (and cheapest) way to hook a smaller - say 6500w types - portable gen to a house - IMHO - is to use extension cords to run your essential items.

That certainly is the cheapest, but I would not call it "best" by any stretch of the imagination !

 

[theoldwizard1]

What are your critical loads that you want to cover during a storm?

What fuel if any do you have on or available on the property. How long do you want to be able to operate without power.

Is operating budget a concern?

These are 3 CRITICAL questions that need to be answered.

I saw a YouTube video where the guy was setting up a first floor bedroom as his "post-hurricane room". Window A/C (small mini-split would also work), a small refrigerator (a real refrigerator with a freezer bigger than an ice cube tray but clearly not full size). He setup his internet equipment there and had space for a small/medium size TV with a window mount OTA antenna. He wired the A/C and a couple of outlets so that they would be powered from the OUTSIDE by a 2000W inverter generator. It had a bed, recliner and a table and chair. Plus he had a microwave and a hot plate.

Okay, he could not run the microwave or the hot plate (I would get an induction cooking plate) at the same time the A/C was on, but the generator used very little fuel (5 gallons lasted a couple of days) and he wasn't sweating.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If my "post-hurricane room" is not big enough (need more sleeping space, etc) then the best and cheapest solution in a generator interlock installed inside your existing breaker panel. Flip the interlock switch, plug in the generator and you can run everything in the house your generator is capable of handling, but NOT AT THE SAME TIME !

Electric water heater and you have a well pump and want to take a shower ? Turn off the well pump, turn on the water heater until you have hot water. Turn off the water heater and turn on the well pump.

Want bacon and eggs with toast and coffee ? No problem. You won't be able to use an electric stove so get an induction cooking plate. Turn of the A/C while cooking and making your coffee !

Don't EVEN THINK about running a whole house A/C system with this kind of setup, but you might be able to run a couple of window A/C units or a small mini-split.

You have to be smart enough to MANAGE YOUR POWER USAGE !

 

[Travinsky]

These are 3 CRITICAL questions that need to be answered.

Great so I estimate I'm looking at ~3,000 running watts, how much more should I estimate for starting watts?

Computer stuff, 32" TV & wide format printer = 800 watts
22 cu ft fridge = 800 watts
18 cu ft freezer = 400 watts
8k BTU portable ac = 1000 watts

Need to operate 6 hours per day for 4-5 days now during hurricane season

So should I just buy a Propane generator (which brand?), more 20# propane tanks and maybe one of these to protect the computer?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000512LA/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[EOC_Jason]

If you are really wanting a long run time rather than stacking a bunch of 20# tanks you might want to invest in some 100# (or larger) tanks...

A 5kw generator at 50% load would use up a 20# tank in about 8.5 hours... Assuming it doesn't ice up on you (probably biggest issue with small tanks), it's actually filled to the proper level, etc...

When hurricane ike came through Houston, we lost power for 2 solid weeks... almost to the exact hour when it finally came back on!

 

[75gmck25]

Some of the kits I've seen include a separate subpanel for your emergency power circuits. You move all the critical circuits over to that subpanel (properly wired to the main panel), and install the interlock so that the sub-panel is either powered through the main panel, or through the generator. it seems like a logical way to limit the number of circuits powered by the generator.

Bruce

 

[Falcon67]

That certainly is the cheapest, but I would not call it "best" by any stretch of the imagination !

Maybe, but can't see going to the expense to install a transfer switch, etc for us to use our EU7000is to power the house in a natural disaster. Fridge, fans, lights and maybe some communications equipment and a microwave. Thats all cord on plug stuff so with some appropriate sized cords that are likely already "in stock" around the house/shop you can be covered and basically operational in a few minutes. Nothing wrong at all about using a xfer switch but for a small genny it seems overkill. So maybe not "best" but effective.

 

[Bretny]

Great so I estimate I'm looking at ~3,000 running watts, how much more should I estimate for starting watts?

Computer stuff, 32" TV & wide format printer = 800 watts
22 cu ft fridge = 800 watts
18 cu ft freezer = 400 watts
8k BTU portable ac = 1000 watts

Need to operate 6 hours per day for 4-5 days now during hurricane season

So should I just buy a Propane generator (which brand?), more 20# propane tanks and maybe one of these to protect the computer?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000512LA/?tag=atomicindus08-20

With just the things you have listed here you should get a 5kw generator.

A 3kw will not start your A/C if/when the fridge goes into defrost.
But for the hookups you should hire a pro..or use extension cords before you do that.

 

[CJ7VFR]

Maybe, but can't see going to the expense to install a transfer switch, etc for us to use our EU7000is to power the house in a natural disaster......Nothing wrong at all about using a xfer switch but for a small genny it seems overkill.....

Depends on where you live, how you get your normal utilities delivered to your home, and how many times a year you loose power.

If you live in an area where you loose power maybe once every few years or so, have city water, city sewer, a natural gas hookup for appliances like your furnace or stove, only one refrigerator, and things like that, then yes, running a bunch of extension cords around your house, thru open windows, in the winter, when it's cold and snow is blowing around, might work for you.

But if you live in an area like I do, where the power goes out at least once a year for a few days or longer, we have a well for water, a septic system, the need for a sump pump, two refrigerators, an oil fired furnace, and everything else that requires electricity to run, then running a bunch of electrical cords all over the house, in the winter, with the windows open to let the cords in, is not really an option I want to live with for a week or more.

A manual transfer switch, with 10 circuits, or a load center Interlock, are actually not that expensive ($300 for a transfer switch and about $100 for an Interlock), and they are easy to install yourself. Hooking up a portable generator to a power inlet box on the outside of the house, which in turn is connected to either a transfer switch or Interlock breaker in your load center is all you need to keep the things running that will allow you to stay in your home during an extended power outage.

That is far easier to manage than having to run a bunch of extension cords thru open windows, all over the house, to power things. And the transfer switch or Interlock is a one time installation. Once they are installed that's it. No more ever having to chase down cords, or figure out what cord goes where, or if you have balanced the loads on the generator, or anything.

Jim

 

[Fasthotrod]

Meant to write best value.

Fair enough.

Most important is computer equipment and a fridge, freezer and portable ac. House AC and tools are secondary.

Do you happen to have an uninterruptible power supply (UPS) for your computer? If not, I would recommend one. They help with surges, brown outs, black outs, etc... the batteries in the UPS will allow you to safely shut down your work if/when the power goes out, then turn off the PC, then get power turned back on with the generator. Then just power back up and go. If you take a surge on the generator, the UPS will protect your PC. I have one like this:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003Y24DEU/?tag=atomicindus08-20

No fuel on property - only 3 LP 20# for BBQ

Bummer... small cylinders like that are not real good at providing fuel to a generator because they can freeze up. When that happens, you lose fuel pressure and the engine quits. If you had a manifold and could tie all of the tanks together to feed the generator, it may work... but you'll likely be better off with a bigger cylinder or a generator that runs on gas/diesel.

Need to operate 6 hours per day for 4-5 days now during hurricane season.

LP doesn't have the same amount of BTU's as gas or diesel, so while it may be easier to store/carry/refuel you will likely need more of it on site for the same running duration. Depending on the electrical loads in your house, you should be able to find a small portable gasoline powered generator that will run for the duration you're asking for above. My little 5kW gas unit runs a camper/RV HVAC all night, no problem... but we'd need to know more about your situation and the generator fuel consumption to know for sure.

Are you okay with checking on the unit every couple of hours and topping off the fuel tank, or did you need it to run those 6 hours non-stop without your intervention?

Operating budget is $5,000

Good to know... based on the above, I'd say a decent portable E/G and panel rewiring is in your future. I did a quick search and found this article that might be of some help:

http://www.carnationconstruction.com/Techniques/06-06-Techniques-Electrical-BackupPower.html

Hope this helps.

Mark

 

[theoldwizard1]

Great so I estimate I'm looking at ~3,000 running watts, how much more should I estimate for starting watts?

Computer stuff, 32" TV & wide format printer = 800 watts
22 cu ft fridge = 800 watts
18 cu ft freezer = 400 watts
8k BTU portable ac = 1000 watts

As long the last 3 do NOT try to start at the same time, I would not worry about starting loads.

Need to operate 6 hours per day for 4-5 days now during hurricane season

So the other 18 hours a day they are ALL going to be turned off ?

IMHO, stick with a gasoline generator, but spend the extra money and get an inverter generator. You will probably need one rated at about 3500W like this Champion model 100233

Inverter generators "play well" with electronics so a line conditioner is not required.

I would want at least FOUR 5 gallon gas cans.

One downside to portable generators is that they have a limited run time because they have small fuel tanks. With a bit of ingenuity (and watching some YouTube videos) you can hook up a fuel pump to draw fuel from an external tank.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Some of the kits I've seen include a separate subpanel for your emergency power circuits.

PAIN IN THE *** !! Get a GENERATOR INTERLOCK !!!!

 

[EOC_Jason]

I would want at least FOUR 5 gallon gas cans.

One downside to portable generators is that they have a limited run time because they have small fuel tanks. With a bit of ingenuity (and watching some YouTube videos) you can hook up a fuel pump to draw fuel from an external tank.

The plus side to having a gas generator too is you have that fuel hopefully stored before the storm hits, and *if* you need to evacuate or have some emergency you won't have to worry about your vehicle running empty because most gas stations will either not have power either, or will be empty.

Shutting down a portable air-cooled generator every two or three hours is a good idea. Gives it time to cool off, top off fuel, CHECK THE OIL, and other little things. A lot of those generators do burn oil, especially when people push them hard...

It is worth mentioning too (if you don't already have spare motor oil on hand for your car) is to stock up on a case of oil for your generator.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The plus side to having a gas generator too is you have that fuel hopefully stored before the storm hits, and *if* you need to evacuate or have some emergency you won't have to worry about your vehicle running empty because most gas stations will either not have power either, or will be empty.

Never thought of this but it is a great idea !

Shutting down a portable air-cooled generator every two or three hours is a good idea. Gives it time to cool off, top off fuel, CHECK THE OIL, and other little things.

But it gets old about the third night when you have to get up and refuel the genny at 3AM !

It is worth mentioning too (if you don't already have spare motor oil on hand for your car) is to stock up on a case of oil for your generator.

Air filter, spark plug and any other "consumable".

 

[Travinsky]

So yesterday I bought a Firman HO7552 at Costco for $650 that looks to me like a HO7551 that is duel fuel and does everything including 240V @ 30A. Even includes a cover but it's still in the SUV since it's raining for the next few days 24/7 due to "Alberto" in the Gulf.

https://www.costco.com/Firman-Power-Dual-Fuel-Generator-7500-Running-Watts.product.100417697.html

With just the things you have listed here you should get a 5kw generator... A 3kw will not start your A/C if/when the fridge goes into defrost...But for the hookups you should hire a pro..or use extension cords before you do that.

Thanks just checked off the gen yesterday and will call Angie's List/Home Advisor to get a pro.

Depends on where you live, how you get your normal utilities delivered to your home, and how many times a year you loose power... A manual transfer switch, with 10 circuits, or a load center Interlock, are actually not that expensive ($300 for a transfer switch and about $100 for an Interlock), and they are easy to install yourself. Hooking up a portable generator to a power inlet box on the outside of the house, which in turn is connected to either a transfer switch or Interlock breaker in your load center is all you need to keep the things running that will allow you to stay in your home during an extended power outage... Jim

Thanks Jim, I live in Miami and it's only hot and hotter year round so sadly never cold here but I respect your description of cables throughout the house - then add my dogs and cats into it and it's a nightmare.

So can you link me which to buy in home depot and I'll order this weekend. They have the Eaton brand with several options but not sure, or should I wait for a pro? Problem is my house has no disconnects (inside or outside - see pics in 1st post) so I can't just connect myself.

Do you happen to have an uninterruptible power supply (UPS) for your computer?

Yep, Have 5 of them but they don't last and thinking about doing the car battery youtube frankenstein thing - LOL.

Bummer... small cylinders like that are not real good at providing fuel to a generator because they can freeze up.

I'm ignorant so does that mean it freezes in hot weather too?

LP doesn't have the same amount of BTU's as gas or diesel... but we'd need to know more about your situation and the generator fuel consumption to know for sure.

Thunderstorms a lot during Summer so will be operated an avg of 3x a week for 4-6 hours a day.

Are you okay with checking on the unit every couple of hours and topping off the fuel tank, or did you need it to run those 6 hours non-stop without your intervention?

Every 2 hours would be a hassle so I'll see what permits I'll need to get a 100-200# tank in the yard.

So the other 18 hours a day they are ALL going to be turned off ?

The office will only be running during that time. But in case of a big storm / hurricane then all bets are off!

PAIN IN THE *** !! Get a GENERATOR INTERLOCK !!!!

Which one? I only shop HD, Thanks

 

[slow]

does your panel accept a main breaker? It seems odd to me that you dont have a main.

 

[Travinsky]

does your panel accept a main breaker? It seems odd to me that you dont have a main.

There is a knockout for it but no breaker.

 

[EOC_Jason]

https://www.homedepot.com/s/transfer%20switch?NCNI-5

If you have no main in your panel, a simple interlock won't work...

A transfer switch will however work fine, just need to choose a size to match the circuits you want to be able to transfer over.

 

[CJ7VFR]

...Thanks Jim, I live in Miami and it's only hot and hotter year round so sadly never cold here but I respect your description of cables throughout the house - then add my dogs and cats into it and it's a nightmare.

So can you link me which to buy in home depot and I'll order this weekend. They have the Eaton brand with several options but not sure, or should I wait for a pro? Problem is my house has no disconnects (inside or outside - see pics in 1st post) so I can't just connect myself.....The office will only be running during that time. But in case of a big storm / hurricane then all bets are off....Which one? I only shop HD, Thanks

There should be some type of main breaker somewhere. I don't see how the electrical work could be done without one?

I can relate to the cats! My two cats are at any open window as soon as they can smell the fresh air! I would be afraid to have them near the open windows, especially since the fumes from the portable generator can also waft into the house thru the opening.

If you just require about 8 to 10 circuits in the house to have power, then the transfer switch is a simple and safe way to get power to those circuits. It requires less "thinking" on the part of everyone in the home as to what can and most importantly, can not be turned on. It is simple to operate, as you just flip 10 switches On or Off. No messing with your main breaker panel by having to flip breakers on and off to run things as well as what you have to turn on and off in order to not overload the generator. And it is safe and easy to use.

If, as you say, and show in your pictures, that there is no main breaker in your panel, then as mentioned by Jason, you can't install an Interlock without one.

I went with a simple manual transfer switch for my home because when I showed my wife the Interlock she said "NO way in hell" was she going to go into our main breaker panel and mess with "all that electrical stuff and get shocked to death." Those were her words. She is so afraid of getting hurt that she won't even open the main panel door up to look at the breakers.

But she can get the generator out, gas it up, connect the cord between it and the power inlet box, start the generator, and then go into the basement and flip the 10 switches to get the house up and running. She has problem doing that!

Jim

 

[Travinsky]

There should be some type of main breaker somewhere. I don't see how the electrical work could be done without one

Thanks Jim

I had the inside panel replaced when I bought the home 6+ years ago as a foreclosure that was vacant for 18 months (everything was missing incl the entire HVAC). $55k later and now this.

The electrician said the only way to replace the panel was to either have FPL shut down the power from the street (extra time + permit etc??) or to just remove the outside meter and disconnect it there. I chose the faster & cheaper option, but it still leaves me in a pickle if there is an electrical fire/emergency.

Anyways now that I have me a generator (still in the SUV due to TS Alberto) I am waiting until I can get some quotes to install a 250 gal propane tank and also get a quote on the wiring.

I'll be taking everyone's advice here and asking whoever gets the job to install everything that has been recommended. I'll take care of what I can, and leave the specialty stuff to the pros. I thought I was protected but nature taught me a lesson and I won't let it happen again.

-Travis

 

[theoldwizard1]

The electrician said the only way to replace the panel was to either have FPL shut down the power from the street (extra time + permit etc??) or to just remove the outside meter and disconnect it there.

Every electrician I know would pull the meter, install the panel and new feed back to the meter pan, plug in the meter. PoCo might not like it, but what can they really do ? The city would still like to get their inspection money.

I chose the faster & cheaper option, but it still leaves me in a pickle if there is an electrical fire/emergency.

What does this statemet have to do with installing a new panel ?

Anyways now that I have me a generator (still in the SUV due to TS Alberto) I am waiting until I can get some quotes to install a 250 gal propane tank and also get a quote on the wiring.

What did you get and have you run the number on how many hours you can run on 250 gallons ?

Propane deliveries after a hurricane are going to be sketchy !

 

[theoldwizard1]

A generator interlock is the most flexible, lowest cost solution. Period !!

 

[EOC_Jason]

Every electrician I know would pull the meter, install the panel and new feed back to the meter pan, plug in the meter. PoCo might not like it, but what can they really do ? The city would still like to get their inspection money.

With smart meters constantly transmitting back they know when one meter goes out like that. When I lived in Houston my dad bumped one with the ROPS on his mower. He immediately knew it and stopped and pushed it back in...

Day later centerpoint truck rolls up and they replace the regular ring w/tamper tag with a locking ring! lol... He told the guy what happened, but they said it's just standard procedure to swap rings when that happens.

 

[theoldwizard1]

A manual transfer switch, with 10 circuits, or a load center Interlock, are actually not that expensive ($300 for a transfer switch and about $100 for an Interlock), and they are easy to install yourself.

I am not sure about your pricing, but if you are going to hire an electrician to install either of those devices, the interlock will be MUCH cheaper !

With the interlock, you do not have to decide in advance which circuit you want "protected" by the transfer switch.

 

[mm08822]

Thanks Jim

I had the inside panel replaced when I bought the home 6+ years ago

The electrician said the only way to replace the panel was to either have FPL shut down the power from the street (extra time + permit etc??) or to just remove the outside meter

-Travis

I think the electrician was saying there is no disconnect upstream of the panel's main cb. Pulling the meter enabled him to replace the panel and most likely replace the cable/conductors between main and meter. A new service 6 years ago would require more than 6 ckts so I am sure you have a single main cb.

Pulling the meter to put a xfer switch in is very common. Your current main panel would then become a sub-panel and need grds separated from neutrals along with a 4-wire feed to it.

Take a pic of the panel with cover off and a second pic of panel's mfr's info. Take a pic of the exterior hardware as well.

I would be surprised if you could not simply add a whole house interlock kit.

 

[Falcon67]

Shutting down a portable air-cooled generator every two or three hours is a good idea. Gives it time to cool off, top off fuel, CHECK THE OIL, and other little things. A lot of those generators do burn oil, especially when people push them hard...

BS. I would not own one that needed that kind of attention. On a single race day we run ours at least 10 hours. On the Honda we are getting 8~11 hrs on a tank depending on AC load. At the finals around the end of the season it'll run 60+ hours straight because we live in the trailer the entire weekend - Thursday through sometime Sunday. If a generator can't handle that, it's a pretty sad unit. I check the oil level once a month during season and fill the tank after every race so it's ready to go next time. The Champ 3500 needed oil top off maybe once or twice a year, the 6500 Champ about 3~4 times. Haven't had the Honda long enough to make any statement about that one.

 

[slow]

while I agree it should not be necessary, my guess is 90% of the generators that people have for home standby use, don't get much use, so the operators don't have a history of the oil consumption if any. Knowing that your generators are used often, (and most likely have actually had an oil change or several over their lifetime, unlike most) For somebody who hasn't used a machien in months, or years, checking the oil level, maybe every 3 hours, then 6 hours then 12 hours could be cheap insurance. After a hurricane, I've found several "blown engines" generators for sale cheap on craigslist, which could be due to oil issues.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Let me revise my statement by saying the engine choice makes a huge difference... The cheap / base model generators with those generic chinese engines are the ones I've always seen burn oil...

Nicer generators / inverters with like B&S, Honda, and other name-brand engines usually don't...

BS. I would not own one that needed that kind of attention. On a single race day we run ours at least 10 hours. On the Honda we are getting 8~11 hrs on a tank depending on AC load. At the finals around the end of the season it'll run 60+ hours straight because we live in the trailer the entire weekend - Thursday through sometime Sunday. If a generator can't handle that, it's a pretty sad unit. I check the oil level once a month during season and fill the tank after every race so it's ready to go next time. The Champ 3500 needed oil top off maybe once or twice a year, the 6500 Champ about 3~4 times. Haven't had the Honda long enough to make any statement about that one.

 

[Fasthotrod]

So yesterday I bought a Firman HO7552 at Costco for $650 that looks to me like a HO7551 that is duel fuel and does everything including 240V @ 30A. Even includes a cover but it's still in the SUV since it's raining for the next few days 24/7 due to "Alberto" in the Gulf.

Interesting... I wasn't aware of a portable unit that ran on gasoline AND propane. Nice find!

So can you link me which to buy in home depot and I'll order this weekend. They have the Eaton brand with several options but not sure, or should I wait for a pro? Problem is my house has no disconnects (inside or outside - see pics in 1st post) so I can't just connect myself.

I just saw this little guy and wondered if it could work for your application? It would require pulling the meter and then installing the transfer switch, then re-installing the meter... but it just might work. I'm having issues with the Home Depot link, but the Amazon link is working fine on my end. Home Depot is MUCH cheaper, though:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/GenerLi...A-Per-Phase-Surge-Protection-MA24-S/301962200

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079H11168/?tag=atomicindus08-20

The Home Depot link also has the manuals from the manufacturer, so you can get an idea on if it would work for you.

In regards to my statement: Bummer... small cylinders like that are not real good at providing fuel to a generator because they can freeze up.

I'm ignorant so does that mean it freezes in hot weather too?

Correct. If you have ever used a can of air to spray off your keyboard for an extended period of time, you'll find that the can becomes really cold. This is basic refrigeration principals at work due to the Ideal Gas Law: PV=nrT where:

P = Pressure
V = Volume
T = Temperature

Propane is a liquid at -44 degrees F, and turns to vapor above that point. So when we have propane in the tank it is compressed into the tank in liquid form and under pressure. (Hence, liquid petroleum, or LP.) At 70 degrees F the tank pressure is at about 127 psi. At 100 degrees F, it's closer to 195 psi.

So if we has x-ray vision and could look inside the tank, we'd see liquid propane at the bottom and the space at the top of the tank would be propane vapor. As we draw propane out of the tank, we are effectively taking propane at tank pressure and dropping it to atmospheric pressure. As the vapor leaves the tank, the liquid propane starts 'boiling' in the tank, making the change from liquid to vapor to fill the void. That resultant pressure drop causes a drop in temperature because the tank volume is not changing. The flow rate of fuel from the tank to the engine determines how many BTU's are going to be absorbed by this cooling effect, and the tank temperature will begin to drop.

The tank surface area is acting like a heat sink, drawing in ambient heat from the surroundings. If the amount of ambient heat and absorption is equal or greater than the cooling effect of the fuel expansion rate, you're okay... but if the tank is too small to absorb the required BTU's to maintain a balance, then the tank will freeze up.

A 100 - 200 gallon tank will likely help you avoid this... as would multiple small tanks with a combined surface area to support the fuel supply requirements. I checked the specifications from the generator manufacturer, but I didn't see a recommended tank size or fuel demand while on propane... is there any data provided in your manuals that talks about the fuel delivery and what size tank to use for a propane application?

Mark

 

[CJ7VFR]

I am not sure about your pricing, but if you are going to hire an electrician to install either of those devices, the interlock will be MUCH cheaper !

With the interlock, you do not have to decide in advance which circuit you want "protected" by the transfer switch.

I paid about $300 for my 10 circuit manual transfer switch in 2012. I see that the prices for those are still in the $300 to $350 range.

The Interlocks I see for sale, either by the electrical panel makers, or by websites selling Interlocks for panels, seem to average about $100. Some are as high as $150 and I see some as low as $50 or $60.

That is where I get my prices. I do agree that hiring an electrician to do the install would cost more for the transfer switch because of how many wires need to get connected. But I installed mine myself, so the labor cost was zero.

As for not having to decide which circuits in advance to protect, that is actually a hard question to answer.

Yes, you can run just about any 15 or 20 amp circuit you have in your load center using the Interlock, but, not all at the same time. First you have to shut off all the breakers to all the circuits, and then, turn the ones you want to use both ON and OFF, per what you want to send power to.

The problem with that is, if you are not careful, or more importantly, your family members are not careful, it is really easy to overload your generator by not turning breakers OFF when you are done using them under generator power. People tend to just keep turning the breakers ON, and not turning them back OFF when they are done in the downstairs bathroom for example. Or if they wanted to watch TV, and then when they are done, they want to use the computer, and they leave both breakers ON to do that without turning other breakers OFF.

Most people I know who have an Interlock label the breakers they want to power when running the generator. That way, when the power goes out, they know to shut off all the breakers, and then turn ON the ones that are labeled and required to be on in order to stay in the house during the power outage. That way they don't have to worry about overloading the generator or remembering to turn breakers OFF before turning another one ON.

This is basically the same thing as having a transfer switch, which is what I chose to install.

I chose the transfer switch because if I am not home, my wife needs to be able to hook up the generator and power the house. She absolutely REFUSED to even consider the Interlock because as she says, she does not want to mess with the "fuse box" and get killed by electricity! No amount of trying on my part could convincer her otherwise.

I agree that an Interlock is the cheaper alternative, which also gives you greater control over what you want to power in your home with your generator.

But if you are not around, and your wife won't use it, and your family is not on top of what they are doing, an Interlock may not be the best choice, as it is also not the simplest one to use. It takes thinking to use it properly.

Jim

 

[theoldwizard1]

As for not having to decide which circuits in advance to protect, that is actually a hard question to answer.

Yes, you can run just about any 15 or 20 amp circuit you have in your load center using the Interlock, but, not all at the same time. First you have to shut off all the breakers to all the circuits, and then, turn the ones you want to use both ON and OFF, per what you want to send power to.

Leave them all on ! You will figure out what appliance will overload the generator soon enough. Like when your teenage daughter turns on the hair dryer and all the lights go out ! She won't do that too many more times !!

This better than mumbling to yourself, "I wonder what circuit THAT light is on ?" while fumbling in the dark. You can still make coffee, bacon and eggs (electric skillet) and toast with cold OJ from the refrigerator, just don't have more than ONE of the first THREE on at the same time.

You can even run a window A/C and watch television in the bedroom.

 

[CJ7VFR]

Leave them all on ! You will figure out what appliance will overload the generator soon enough. Like when your teenage daughter turns on the hair dryer and all the lights go out ! She won't do that too many more times !!

This better than mumbling to yourself, "I wonder what circuit THAT light is on ?" while fumbling in the dark. You can still make coffee, bacon and eggs (electric skillet) and toast with cold OJ from the refrigerator, just don't have more than ONE of the first THREE on at the same time.

You can even run a window A/C and watch television in the bedroom.

I agree with you, and an Interlock is what I wanted initially, but my wife absolutely refused to even consider it, as she is deathly afraid of the load center.

I guess I am lucky that all of the circuits I power with the transfer switch are not only essential things, but also have a rogue receptacle here and there throughout the house to allow me to do exactly what you are talking about.

I can use the coffee maker, or a hot plate, or the toaster oven, not all at once like you mentioned, but I can set them up and use them because there are three receptacles in my kitchen that are on circuits I picked for the transfer switch. One is for the upstairs refrigerator, one we use for the hot stuff, and one we plug a lamp into for light during the power outage.

And most of all, I don't actually have to worry about a kid, or my wife, overloading the panel with a hairdryer or whatever, because the loads are balanced via the transfer switch. So half of the generators 240V power goes to one side, and half goes to the other side of the breakers in the main panel.

Well, except if during a power outage my wife decides she wants to dry her hair in the kitchen with the toaster oven on...

Jim

 

[matt151617]

I use a Champion 3500 watt 120v generator, and I ordered a snorkel kit to run it on natural gas. It's hooked up with a large 10/3 L5-30 extension cord and backfed in to the panel with an interlock. I can run it indefinitely with the natural gas without refilling. This setup lets me keep the sump pump going, fridge and chest freezer on, and heat in the winter. The only thing I can't run is the hot water heater and dryer.

Total cost was $350 for the generator, $100 for the snorkel, $650 to have a gas quick connect line installed (I really wanted it for the grill; they also installed gas line for a new cooktop and hooked up a new furnace), $75 for the interlock, $100 for the extension cord, and $50 for the connection box/wiring.