Hooking up electricity to a barn.

[theundecidedt]

Backstory: My grandparents live on a size-able chunk of land and have a barn that they used to have horses in that is now empty. They have no plans of putting anything back in it and have told me so long as I do the upkeep on it I can use it for whatever I want. So I am going to be ripping out the stalls and using it for a combination woodshop/garage.

Anyways the issue is when it was hooked up the only electrical it needed was just enough to turn on a couple of fluorescent lights so they buried a #8 run from their house about 1000 ft away. This run barely supports then 10 flourescent fixtures around the barn so I am trying to figure out what size wire I would have to run to install a 100 amp sub-panel. The plan is to run a dozen or so 110 outlets and possibly 1 or 2 220 outlets for a welder.

I am not worried about labor for running the wire my dad owns a subcontracting company for ATT so i could either install poles and run the wire overhead or borrow his drill and run the wire underground.

Any help is appreciated.

 

[theoldwizard1]

For the load you described, you only need 60A.

Possibly the cheapest solution, you could step up the voltage with an appropriate transformer at the source and use the existing wire. Be careful as some wire is only rated for 300 volts while other is rated for 600 volts.

If you kick up the voltage with a 240/480 transformer, you will have plenty of voltage at the barn. You just have to find the appropriate CT step down transformer.

 

[dw1]

Call the power company and see what they could do, maybe you could get your own service on the barn. 1000' is a long way, by the time you figure your load, voltage drop ect, it could be more economical to call them, specially if they could run over head, set a transformer at the barn.

 

[CNGsaves]

+1 to check with PoCo for what your options might be. Possibly they'd let you set all the poles or dig the trench and they would finish. Personally, I'd want BURIED electrical service.

Update GJ Profile with your LOCATION. You'll get best advice that way.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Backstory: My grandparents live on a size-able chunk of land and have a barn that they used to have horses in that is now empty. They have no plans of putting anything back in it and have told me so long as I do the upkeep on it I can use it for whatever I want. So I am going to be ripping out the stalls and using it for a combination woodshop/garage.

Anyways the issue is when it was hooked up the only electrical it needed was just enough to turn on a couple of fluorescent lights so they buried a #8 run from their house about 1000 ft away. This run barely supports then 10 flourescent fixtures around the barn so I am trying to figure out what size wire I would have to run to install a 100 amp sub-panel. The plan is to run a dozen or so 110 outlets and possibly 1 or 2 220 outlets for a welder.

I am not worried about labor for running the wire my dad owns a subcontracting company for ATT so i could either install poles and run the wire overhead or borrow his drill and run the wire underground.

Any help is appreciated.

At 1000' thats gonna be some serious wire.

U will need at least 300MCM copper wire. Or 600MCM al...That stuff aint cheap!

As others have said, I would check with your PoCo about getting a separate service for the barn.

For the load you described, you only need 60A.

Not the cheapest solution, but you could step up the voltage with an appropriate transformer at the source and use the existing wire. Be careful as some wire is only rated for 300 volts while other is rated for 600 volts.

based on what? He didnt give u any real load description other than a welder.

He may want a welder that needs 60a on its own.

FYI- load calcs require a little more than just a WAG!

 

[theundecidedt]

Thanks guys I guess I will be calling the power company.

I'm planning on setting up a woodshop so i guess the biggest load at one time would be a dust collection system, all the lights, and a table saw at once but its always better to plan overhead right?

 

[86turbodsl]

Definitely call the poco. You'll lose lots of capacity running low voltage 240/120 that distance. Woodshop calls for decent power.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks guys I guess I will be calling the power company.

I'm planning on setting up a woodshop so i guess the biggest load at one time would be a dust collection system, all the lights, and a table saw at once but its always better to plan overhead right?

What about an air compressor and AC or heat?

 

[theundecidedt]

Well I talked to my grandad and the barn was built so long ago we aren't sure if it is up to code or not... We have an engineer coming out from the power company to see about getting its own power hooked up. Maybe we can get a "construction hookup" for the time being.

What about an air compressor and AC or heat?

I will have an air compressor but it won't be running all the time. AC and Heat aren't an issue as it was a low tech horse barn the walls are just 2x6 with an outside layer of plywood. The ground is simply dirt packed so hard it is almost like concrete. There is no insulation anywhere in the place and the only door is a 12 foot by 15 foot sliding door. So it isn't worth installing any kind of heat or AC. Even if it was insulated the entire barn is about 35x60 with about a 20 foot ceiling. there would be no way to heat or cool that kind of space efficiently.

Luckily here in Georgia summers touch 100 sometimes but inside the barn stays a good bit cooler and in the dead of winter it may get down to freezing for a week. So I can work in the winter without any heat really. I might turn on my jet heater on the really cold days.

 

[simpler=better]

generator? If you're not working out there too much a diesel unit could get the job done.

 

[theundecidedt]

generator? If you're not working out there too much a diesel unit could get the job done.

I've read that generator+table saw does not work well unless you get one of those expensive generators that support sensitive electronics. Also I think it would cost about the same to buy a big enough generator to run a table saw, dust collection system, a couple of chargers on outlets, and all the lights as it would to get electricity hooked up to it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I've read that generator+table saw does not work well unless you get one of those expensive generators that support sensitive electronics. Also I think it would cost about the same to buy a big enough generator to run a table saw, dust collection system, a couple of chargers on outlets, and all the lights as it would to get electricity hooked up to it.

Actually, u need a generator that can handle motor in-rush currents not electronics.

The PoCo may charge u a fortune to hookup the barn.

They either need a bunch of poles or they will do underground.

Underground HV primary wire aint cheap. Then theres the transformer cost.

I bet u could find a good sized generator at a surplus auction for a good deal.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have a 5000W (6250W surge) "portable" generator. It runs my 30+ year old 2HP compressor just fine. Depending on the size of welder the OP has (or is going to purchase) it should run that okay.


If the POCO cost are too high, here is what I would do. Buy a generator AND an inverter/battery charger AND a couple of deep discharge batteries (golf cart).

• Install 2 6-8 main lug load centers.
• Set up one of the load centers with an input from the generator.
• Install breakers and run wire for all 240v load from this load center.
• Install a 20A breaker that will be used to feed the inverter/charger
• The output from the inverter feeds the second load center.
• All lights are wired to the the second load center.
• Depending on the size of the inverter and your battery bank you can wire some 120V outlets and run SOME power tools without firing up the generator.

 

[theundecidedt]

I have a 5000W (6250W surge) "portable" generator. It runs my 30+ year old 2HP compressor just fine. Depending on the size of welder the OP has (or is going to purchase) it should run that okay.


If the POCO cost are too high, here is what I would do. Buy a generator AND an inverter/battery charger AND a couple of deep discharge batteries (golf cart).

• Install 2 6-8 main lug load centers.
• Set up one of the load centers with an input from the generator.
• Install breakers and run wire for all 240v load from this load center.
• Install a 20A breaker that will be used to feed the inverter/charger
• The output from the inverter feeds the second load center.
• All lights are wired to the the second load center.
• Depending on the size of the inverter and your battery bank you can wire some 120V outlets and run SOME power tools without firing up the generator.

I happen to have like 10 125ah deep cycle batteries... This seems like the best option if POCO costs are to high.

What inverter/charger would you recommend if i can literally put about 1500ah behind it. In a perfect world that would mean I could support about a 10000 watt load for an hour.

 

[70R]

My FIL has a similar situation with his pole barn. He uses a large inverter (Harbor Freight or Northern Tool), solar panels and a bank of batteries for lights, garage door openers and small power tools. For the large power tools and the air compressor, he uses an older Miller (Trailblazer, I think) welder/generator. He keeps it on a heavy duty cart and pushes it outside to run it. The welder feature is an added benefit.

This is his "temporary" solution he's had in place for the last 10 years or so!

 

[theoldwizard1]

What inverter/charger would you recommend ...

There are a lot of good ones on the market these days, but you first need to decide if you want a "modified" (pseudo) sine wave or true sine wave. Incandescent light bulbs don't care. Florescent and LED don't "like" modified sine wave. Electronics and motors don't operate well on modified sine wave. (Are you getting a hint ?)

Look for a company that sells into the "off grid" market, such as Outback (no, not the steak house). Samlex is another one. No experience with either.

This market place is going to explode in the next 1-3 years. Google is running a contest with a big prize for someone to build a high power, small footprint inverter.

 

[theundecidedt]

So as of right now I'm assuming the POCO will cost to much. I'm thinking run al the lights that aren't in the workshop part of the building off of the small amount of power that is already there. Also run a pattery maintainer for the battery bank. I will run the rest of the lights and a couple of outlets off of battery power. I think I found a big 12Kwh diesel generator that I can use and I will crank it up for any big power tool usage and have it permanently wired into the panel. Maybe build a closet for it and the dust collection right outside of the building.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Did u get a quote from the PoCo yet?

 

[theundecidedt]

Not yet due to it not being up to code my dad is bringing his buddy out that is an engineer for the power company to see wat we can do about getting it hooked up.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not yet due to it not being up to code my dad is bringing his buddy out that is an engineer for the power company to see wat we can do about getting it hooked up.

If its not permitted, good luck on getting permanent power. The most u could expect is a temporary job site power pole.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'm thinking run al the lights that aren't in the workshop part of the building off of the small amount of power that is already there. Also run a pattery maintainer for the battery bank. I will run the rest of the lights and a couple of outlets off of battery power.

Check the (AC) voltage at the light fixture and at battery maintainer. You may have adequate voltage just because the current is low and voltage drop = current X resistance.

Incandescent bulbs will work, although dimly, even below 100v.

 

[simpler=better]

I've read that generator+table saw does not work well unless you get one of those expensive generators that support sensitive electronics. Also I think it would cost about the same to buy a big enough generator to run a table saw, dust collection system, a couple of chargers on outlets, and all the lights as it would to get electricity hooked up to it.

My MEP-002 5KW diesel (Onan from the 80s) was only $500 and can start an arc welder @ 125A no problem. Has adjustments for fine tuning the Hz, voltage, and can switch between 1ph and 3ph

Not a long term solution, but it's been working pretty well for me, and was working well for the guy I bought it from.


Hard wiring is definitely the better(and quieter) solution, but for a quick fix

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/ Has more info than you'd ever need about surplus units. The modern water cooled ones are pretty slick.

 

[theundecidedt]

Well it looks like a hardline isn't going to happen but there is a used equipment auction coming up at the first of december. I should be able to get a 14kw diesel generator for about 4-500.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Why not?

And how many hours are on it?

 

[theundecidedt]

I'm honestly not sure how many hours it depends on what shows up. I won't know till I get there that day.

The only way I could get a hardwire would be a temp pole drop and it was going to be upwards of 1000 dollars with me setting to poles.

 

[simpler=better]

When buying military surplus make sure they're not one of the weird 400hz units