Horrible Kijiji Tool Box Experience!!

[BFBOB]

haha

That's the criminal standard.
The civil standard is a mere preponderance of the evidence, or in layman's terms: 51 percent. Snap-on would have no trouble proving up the chain of custody of this box under that standard.

Varies with the jurisdiction. I sat on a jury for a civil suit. The standard was prepoderance of the evidence, but only 9 jurors had to agree to reach a verdict. And then, the blame ("Responsibility") is apportioned to the plaintiff and defendant by percentage.
That makes it possible to win the case and get no money.

 

[clinebarger]

I don't give legal advice!

But.....If you were to remove both stickers, What could really happen? Surely you're not going to give your information to the seller! First name only & a burner cell phone?

What about the millions of dollars worth of stolen/leveraged hand tools that get bought & sold every year with impunity because they have no SN's, But tool boxes are somehow special?

I stencil/engraved ALL my tools with my DL number! I was able to recover @ $13,000 dollars of stolen hand tools from various pawn shops in town because of it!

 

[Jazz1]

I would have thought the price of Snap On boxes there would be a stamped serial #, not just a friggin sticker

 

[bczygan]

So I needed a new tool box as my old one is getting tight to the point of not being organized anymore.

So off I went to talk to the Snap On man and he priced me on a KRL 7023 and a
sweet looking 68" Epiq.....I prefer the 7023 because i'm 5'4" and its only 41" high versus the Epiq's 46".....

Anyways was ready to pull the trigger, had line of credit set up (for Lower interest rate) and I got looking on Kijiji for a used box....just for the "heck" of it.

Low and behold there was a blue KRL7023 with a Stainless top for $5000!!
So I email the guy with the usual questions...."is it stolen, any liens,what kind of shape is it in? ect....

Within 15 mins I got an email back saying that the box is in great shape,he was the original owner and he peeled the serial # off because he didn't like stickers (red flag) NO liens and
he could also do a better price at $4k

After a little bartering I managed to get him down to 2500$ and a case of beer....some people desperately need cash right?

So I gather up a trailer and a couple of friends and we go check it out....
Sure enough the box is in great shape and I can't find a serial # anywhere?
So i get his name and I already have his address and I call my snap on guy.

Without a serial # he can't trace the box but he puts in a few calls and the guys name comes up in good standing....

Ok good then?! So I am the proud owner of a new Krl box!

Well that was 2 weeks ago....and this Thursday past another (not my dealer) Snap On guy swings into my shop and says he heard that someone had just bought a Krl off of Kijiji....he needs to run the serial #'s

Same as me couldn't find a number. But after i tell him the name of the guy that Id bought it from he's convinced it's the box he's looking for with a hefty lien on it...holy ****!

According to this Snap on man the guy that i bought the box from bought it off of a deadbeat co worker the day before me for $2k! His co worker defaulted on the loan...

So i'm so upset that i'm shaking....I talk to the Snap on account manager on the phone and offer to buy the box from them at a used price. She says no and that they need the box in their possession and that it'll be sold at a later date..

So still very upset and knowing in my gut that the deal i got was too good to be true....I told the Snap On guy that he could take the box, and I started to unload my tools.....

Luckily for me a good friend and co worker caught wind of the situation and "talked me down" noting that since there was no serial # that mr snap on saying that this was THE box was only here-say...

So I politely told him to leave and that i'd be talking to the police and a lawyer..

Anyways I'm not going to say what the police or the lawyer said (for obvious reasons) but because of my situation I get to keep the box even if it is proved to be the lien box.

I did try to protect myself but I suppose sometimes you can never do enough...buyer beware! I should of walked when I found out there were no serial #'s on it ..


What could I have done as a buyer?

I did call SO with the guys name who i'd bought it from....
I couldn't give a serial #...so do i say I have a big blue tool box? It's square?
Being that there is no title for these things what can we do?

I think for the value of a box these days there should be a title and the serials should be STAMPED on ALL boxes!
Especially if a lien can be applied to them!!



p.s I hope i don't break any forum rules by posting my story

Why in HELL would you do that???

Bill

 

[bczygan]

Hand you the money and take the box.

Done deal. You don't know me.

I wouldn't even look for a serial number when buying a box.

Cash and carry.

Bill

 

[kythri]

Folks, OP was over seven years ago...

 

[CR888]

I wonder how much money say in a $10k SO toolbox is an on cost to offset all the bad credit problems/defualts they encounter. I like SO boxes but it makes you wonder what exactly your buying with your money. Are you buying into a pyramid of lost & broken dreams when paying msrp or close too on a new box. I mean won't they sell one to a first year apprentice for half the cost a long term committed customer who may have spent many many thousands on SO product over many years/decades? I'd kinda feel stupid playing that game...

 

[CR888]

Folks, OP was over seven years ago...

Yes, kinda funny but wait till folks quote members that haven't been here in years or are banned & offer them advice. Definitely pointless but sort of funny. Everyone gets their say on the public forum...

 

[X1 Mike]

Hand you the money and take the box.

Done deal. You don't know me.

I wouldn't even look for a serial number when buying a box.

Cash and carry.

Bill

Not having a good day on the forums.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

Folks, OP was over seven years ago...

And you still don't know what you're talking about.

 

[kythri]

And you still don't know what you're talking about.

Back atcha, cupcake. UCC online databases still provide ****-all information, and are still limited to states, not federal, but, hey, keep on keepin' on.

Besides, all the jackwagons that prophesied repossession by the Snap-on dealer changed their tune a couple years ago to "I've never heard of a real case of the Snap-on man repossessing anything!", so, who gives a **** about UCC filings?

Glock provides cheap insurance against repossession of a toolbox, anyhow, so it should be a worry-free experience for the potential buyer of a smokin' deal.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

Back atcha, cupcake. UCC online databases still provide ****-all information, and are still limited to states, not federal, but, hey, keep on keepin' on.

Besides, all the jackwagons that prophesied repossession by the Snap-on dealer changed their tune a couple years ago to "I've never heard of a real case of the Snap-on man repossessing anything!", so, who gives a **** about UCC filings?

Glock provides cheap insurance against repossession of a toolbox, anyhow, so it should be a worry-free experience for the potential buyer of a smokin' deal.

wned2:

 

[Handyandy23]

Because that is the proper Canadian thing to do. Find out which dealer sold him the box and call that dealer if everything is ok. If somebody misses a couple of payments, Snap-on credit contacts the dealer who sold the box and that dealer trys to collect the money.

People who only buy from box stores and with credit cards dont understand how small business works, Tool truck dealers are fairly mild mannered when it comes to collecting or recovering boxes.

When you get into Harleys and farm tractors, guys have no problem making house calls or showing up at somebody's work to have a friendly chat about that too good to be true item that you have for sale or just bought

I think the big difference is that Harleys (and I'm assuming tractors) have serial numbers and proper ownerships. Which makes them fully traceable, and also allows you as the purchaser to check for liens against it before you purchase. And the systems are in place so that when you go and change the ownership into your name, the serial number is run through a database to make sure that the title is clean. All of this allows for creditors to easily show up and prove what you bought is theirs.

Tool boxes, on the other hand, have some crappy stickered serial number, and no traceability or database where you can check anything. Which makes it nearly impossible for you to check history on the box if you're buying it used, and it also makes it nearly impossible for your SO driver to come repo it. If SO wants to use their boxes as collateral and have some kind of lien placed against them, then they need to stamp serial numbers in, and more importantly, create some kind of public record of serial numbers and ownership and title so that the average person can check up on it before buying. Otherwise it's no different than buying a used ratchet or a TV, how are you supposed to know where it came from?

 

[WittHay]

I erased my comments because i didnt want to get into the Snap-on evil empire nonsense.

No difference buying a used Snap-on tool box for $5000 or a used John Deere farm tractor for $5000. Both items can only be bought through a dealer not a box store. The items belong to the manufacturer until paid in full. Its up to the buyer to make sure everything is okay.

An average person does not buy a used Snap-on tool box.. I think the most expensive box listed on the Vancouver Craiglists is a Snap-on Epiq for $12,000

Usually its not pretty when dealing or buying stolen property 3 or 4 guys come to your house. The police ususally gets called. Lot of times people show up at a persons workplace and and talk to the boss or management where to find somebody

 

[spurcap]

I erased my comments because i didnt want to get into the Snap-on evil empire nonsense.

No difference buying a used Snap-on tool box for $5000 or a used John Deere farm tractor for $5000. Both items can only be bought through a dealer not a box store. The items belong to the manufacturer until paid in full. Its up to the buyer to make sure everything is okay.

An average person does not buy a used Snap-on tool box.. I think the most expensive box listed on the Vancouver Craiglists is a Snap-on Epiq for $12,000

Usually its not pretty when dealing or buying stolen property 3 or 4 guys come to your house. The police ususally gets called. Lot of times people show up at a persons workplace and and talk to the boss or management where to find somebody

WittHay - but that goes back to my original question. You said "Its up to the buyer to make sure everything is okay." -- How?

If there was a way to do it, I would be willing to do everything I can to make sure I don't buy an unpaid box, but I can't find any. If you could call SO with the serial # and they could tell you, that would work but I understand they won't do that. And the state level UCC registries don't appear to let you search by serial number (even if the silly sticker wasn't removed for whatever reason).

If SO was really concerned about wanting to keep their security where they know where it is, there would be lots of simple solutions. 1) Tell people without giving personal info whether there is a lien; 2) Provide some type of document to purchases that pay cash or when they pay off that could be given to buyers to show its paid for. But they don't from what I read.

The story I am hearing is, "it's SO's box and they can legally come take it if unpaid, so the only way to avoid this risk is only buy from SO" -- Seems like a great way to help their sales at the expense of legitimate owners wanting to sell their boxes. I say at their expense because buyers would potentially pay more if they could be reassured that SO wouldn't get the deadbeat purchaser to tell them who they sold their box to so they could show up and repossess it (in theory). Yes, I could buy one and take off the stickers and maybe there is no way they could "prove it was theirs" but I am not going to spend 4 digits in cash to buy a box and then have to act like a criminal when I have no desire to be one.

 

[Handyandy23]

I erased my comments because i didnt want to get into the Snap-on evil empire nonsense.

No difference buying a used Snap-on tool box for $5000 or a used John Deere farm tractor for $5000. Both items can only be bought through a dealer not a box store. The items belong to the manufacturer until paid in full. Its up to the buyer to make sure everything is okay.

An average person does not buy a used Snap-on tool box.. I think the most expensive box listed on the Vancouver Craiglists is a Snap-on Epiq for $12,000

Usually its not pretty when dealing or buying stolen property 3 or 4 guys come to your house. The police ususally gets called. Lot of times people show up at a persons workplace and and talk to the boss or management where to find somebody

I don't know much about tractors so I won't really comment on that comparison. But as the poster above said, the point is that there is no traceability on SO boxes, so how do they expect people to "make sure" they're buying a box that is paid off? There's no system or way for you to do that, so it's not a realistic expectation. Houses and cars have titles with systems set up for you to be able to do your due diligence when buying one to make sure the title is clear. You can't do that with a toolbox, so what are you suggesting one should do?

SO doesn't even take the care to stamp a serial number on the box, just stickers, so if the sticker is missing the company is really SOL. As in the OP, there's no way they can prove what box it is, and no way for the purchaser to check up on it. SO sells these things on credit, and it's on them to collect money from the person they signed the contract with. There is no contract between SO and someone that purchases a toolbox second hand.

It's like if I bought a $5000 TV with my credit card, defaulted on my payments, and then went and sold the TV to my neighbor. The CC company is still coming after me and having to deal with me to recover their money, it has nothing to do with the item I purchased. SO is extending credit to people buying the boxes. If they want to use those boxes as collateral then they need to have stamped ID numbers / plates, titles, and a system where anyone can access the information to confirm the status of the title. They don't seem to want to go to that amount of trouble to protect themselves, so not sure what a buyer is supposed to do - you as a buyer aren't responsible for taking care of SO's interests.

 

[WittHay]

Google how to buy a used atv, boat, snowmobile, compact tractor with money still owing on it. There has to be arrangements between the creditor, seller and buyer.

The easiest way when you want to buy the $8000 2 year old Snap-on box on the weekend is to simply ask the seller if he still owes Snap-on money. Get the name of the dealer that sold the box. The dealer knows if there is any problems with missed payments.

You are buying a commercial product and the procedures are different than buying a television. On that $8000 box you might have to make a $5000 bank draft payable to Snap-on credit and $3000 cash to the seller

That serial number is easy to find and it doesnt come off that easy. If it is missing that the same as buying a ATV with the serial number removed. You know something is not right.

Examples of Snap-on boxes and serial numbers on Vancouver Craigslist. The larger box is listed for $10,500 and the smaller is $5000

 

[Handyandy23]

Google how to buy a used atv, boat, snowmobile, compact tractor with money still owing on it. There has to be arrangements between the creditor, seller and buyer.

The easiest way when you want to buy the $8000 2 year old Snap-on box on the weekend is to simply ask the seller if he still owes Snap-on money. Get the name of the dealer that sold the box. The dealer knows if there is any problems with missed payments.

You are buying a commercial product and the procedures are different than buying a television. On that $8000 box you might have to make a $5000 bank draft payable to Snap-on credit and $3000 cash to the seller

That serial number is easy to find and it doesnt come off that easy. If it is missing that the same as buying a ATV with the serial number removed. You know something is not right.

Examples of Snap-on boxes and serial numbers on Vancouver Craigslist. The larger box is listed for $10,500 and the smaller is $5000

It's still different than ATV, boats, snowmobiles, etc because those all have ownerships and registrations. When you purchase one the ownership is signed over, you take it to the DMV / MTO / whatever, and they run the VIN and title and check for liens. Then the title is changed over to your name and you own it.

Just because SO slaps on a sticker with a serial number on it doesn't make it the same. There's no ownership or paper trail or database where you can access any info on it. It's basically the same as you writing your name on your toolbox in washable marker, and someone steals it and wipes your name off. There's no proof that it was yours. The "procedures" are a lot closer to buying a TV than a motor vehicle because like a TV, there's no ownership or database to track anything.

Asking the seller for his name and calling up the local SO rep is all just stuff that may or may not be reliable. The OPer from this old thread did all of that and was told by the SO rep that it looked legit, and then all of a sudden a different rep showed up trying to repo the box.

 

[jd_1138]

I'd be afraid of the erroneous paper trail that may be created by the OP calling SO. If they have his name and #, they may list it in their database as "Mr. John Doe bought our stolen property/toolbox (which we THINK is) SN # 393485293" then this may get relayed to a LEO who then records it as a purchase of stolen property case. Humans are kinda prone to error.

SO should just go after these deadbeats for the amount owed. The property in question is not secured and shouldn't be thought of as such. It isn't a house or a car/truck.

 

[kythri]

Yeah, it's not very similar to buying a titled piece of property, and, quite frankly, is far more similar to buying a TV.

Whatever UCC nonsense is being performed, it's being performed by the lender, not the lendee - that's all transparent to the lendee.

WTF is a "commercial" product, anyhow?

 

[chad w]

Google how to buy a used atv, boat, snowmobile, compact tractor with money still owing on it. There has to be arrangements between the creditor, seller and buyer.

The easiest way when you want to buy the $8000 2 year old Snap-on box on the weekend is to simply ask the seller if he still owes Snap-on money. Get the name of the dealer that sold the box. The dealer knows if there is any problems with missed payments.

You are buying a commercial product and the procedures are different than buying a television. On that $8000 box you might have to make a $5000 bank draft payable to Snap-on credit and $3000 cash to the seller

That serial number is easy to find and it doesnt come off that easy. If it is missing that the same as buying a ATV with the serial number removed. You know something is not right.

Examples of Snap-on boxes and serial numbers on Vancouver Craigslist. The larger box is listed for $10,500 and the smaller is $5000

Every post ive seen you post is filled with erroneous information. Does spreading misinformation make you happy, or do you genuinely think youre correct often?

 

[chad w]

Its an untitled piece of property with no fixed serial number. There is absolutely no crime in buying a box with no sticker on it, and, as has, im sure been discussed, snap on has no legal recourse or rights to the box from YOU on the ASSUMPTION that that box is the one owed on. They have a right to go after the original purchaser/debtor, not you.

That doesnt mean they wont try and scare you into voluntarily giving it to them though.

 

[WittHay]

When you buy a Snap-on tool box on credit, you receive a 6 page legal document called a "Conditional Sales Agreement" from Snap-on Credit Canada same as buying a bulldozer, tractor or piece of equipment and getting it financed through Cat Financial, JD Financial or CNH Capital

All these sales agreements require proof of insurance with the proceeds being payable to the lender not the buyer

The first thing it states is "Please be advised that a security has been registered under the "Personal Property Security Act" in the Province of residence

Then it states that the "Buyer represents and warrants that the property purchased under this agreement is to be solely used for commercial or business purposes and not for personal, family or household use"

Paragraph 2 : Buyer must not sell , transfer, sublet, assign, mortgage, hypothecate or pledge all or any part of the goods or the Collateral

Paragraph 13 ;Subject to any applicable law, Seller or Seller's agent, Assignee the Receiver or any sheriff or bailiff, upon default without notice or demand for performance or legal process lawfully enter any premises where the collateral may be found without committing trespass and take possession of the collateral. If the collateral has been abandoned or left in the possession of a third party, it is considered as being left subject to the immediate repossession by seller

 

[WittHay]

Ignorance of the law is not a excuse.

The average homeowner HF 44" tool box is $500

When you are buying a $2000 used Snap-on tool box it is assumed that you know you are buying a product meant for business or commercial purposes

It is also assumed that you know how commercial lending practices work in regard to buying used property that is being held as collateral

That the difference between commercial and household, any Snap-on dealer or bailiff can come into a shop looking for a box.

Something not quite right in this Kijiji story is that most people know about the 2 locations of the serial numbers and you ask the seller which Snap-on dealer he bought the box from

In this case the buyer bought a box from somebody who bought it from somebody else who defaulted on the payments

 

[knobby]

Nice necro thread
Kijiji tells me that the OP would be in Canada and the way that this would be dealt with if it were a true story is that when it got around to the police being called the police would look for serial numbers.
If usable serial numbers were found they would do a CPIC check on said numbers and unless the digits come up on the system as stolen the police would advise the dealer to seek civil damages.
The wishful snappy dealer would go home sad because he could not steal the box back.

 

[kythri]

When you are buying a $2000 used Snap-on tool box it is assumed that you know you are buying a product meant for business or commercial purposes

Horseshit.

It is also assumed that you know how commercial lending practices work in regard to buying used property that is being held as collateral

Horseshit.

That the difference between commercial and household, any Snap-on dealer or bailiff can come into a shop looking for a box.

Horseshit, again. The Snap-on man doesn't have some magical permission to enter a shop without permission.

Law enforcement can't enter without permission or a warrant.