Hot and Neutral reversed, question

[joseywales]

This is so simple and I can't understand why it's not working.

I had an existing outlet. It looks to feed another outlet as well. My plan, was to add an outlet 2 feet above it, on the other side of the wall. Then, run from that outlet to a set of switches: 3-gang box - 2 dimmers and 1 paddle. Doing all this, to add 3 new lights to the room

1 - i ran the power from the existing outlet to the new outlet. It worked. I didn't check polarity at that time.

2 - I ran power from the new outlet to the 3 gang box. All lights and switches work.

3 - I wanted to check the polarity of the new outlet as a CYA and sure enough, the Hot and Neutral test reversed. The existing outlet tests fine.

Since the existing outlet tests fine, the problem would have to be between the existing outlet and the new outlet, correct?

The wires on the new outlet are: Black (hot) to the small slot, and White (neutral) to the long slot, same as on the existing outlet. I even tried reversing the wires on the new outlet, with no change.

It's a straight run, from one outlet to the other. Any ideas? Is it possible that one of the lights or switches is causing the issue?

 

[alfredeneuman]

Are you using one of those 3 light testers to test the polarity??
They're notorious for giving bad readings.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Are you using one of those 3 light testers to test the polarity??
They're notorious for giving bad readings.

What’s a better alternative?

 

[sberry]

Simply wire it right.

 

[joseywales]

Are you using one of those 3 light testers to test the polarity??
They're notorious for giving bad readings.

I am, but man the unit tests fine in every other outlet. I'm moving on to the volt meter now. I have to leave now for the inlaws, but a quick test with the meter shows that the ground existing outlet isn't the best.

 

[larry4406]

The wires on the new outlet are: Black (hot) to the small slot, and White (neutral) to the long slot, same as on the existing outlet. I even tried reversing the wires on the new outlet, with no change.

On the back of the outlets, make sure the black wire is connected to a brass colored screw and white wire to the silver screw.

I had similar issue. I had a loose neutral at the panel. The filament of the light bulbs would allow continuity checks which drove me nuts.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4982293

 

[wyliesdiesels]

With DMM test neutral to ground. should be no more than a few volts.

If you get 120v neutral to ground then you have an issue.

 

[joseywales]

With DMM test neutral to ground. should be no more than a few volts.

If you get 120V neutral to ground then you have an issue.

Thanks. Yeah, neutral to ground jumps around a bit on both outlets, but isn't even hitting 1V.

Hot to ground hits 120ish, so all good there.

 

[joseywales]

On the back of the outlets, make sure the black wire is connected to a brass colored screw and white wire to the silver screw.

I had similar issue. I had a loose neutral at the panel. The filament of the light bulbs would allow continuity checks which drove me nuts.
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4982293

Yeah, well, I just had someone else do some electrical in the basement. In the first week, I replaced two brand new outlets that he installed. Neither worked when you plugged into it. I tested them with three different testers and meters. Sometimes they worked, sometimes not. I honestly thought they were just construction grade ****, because I replaced the one and it works and tests fine, 100%. I haven't replaced the second one yet, but assume it will be the same.

However, your comment has me wondering because not only was there a lot of lighting/receptacles installed, there was a new mini-split installed, so lost of action in the panel recently. I just can't figure why other outlets in this upstairs room are fine, but the new one isn't.

 

[Git]

On the back of the outlets, make sure the black wire is connected to a brass colored screw and white wire to the silver screw.

^^^^This

 

[joseywales]

^^^^This

I’ll double check when I get home, but I could swear they are.
This new outlet would rarely, if ever, get used. I only added it because I had the wall open and was running power upstream for the new lights/switches.

 

[Milton Shaw]

Should not be any meter movement between neutral and ground. They should be less than .5 ohm no matter what the distance as they are bonded in the main panel. Sounds like you have loose ground or neutral somewhere in the wiring. That would confuse most 3 light testers...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Should not be any meter movement between neutral and ground. They should be less than .5 ohm no matter what the distance as they are bonded in the main panel. Sounds like you have loose ground or neutral somewhere in the wiring. That would confuse most 3 light testers...

He did a voltage test not a resistance test and IIRc he did say earlier that some of the grounds are questionable.

 

[joseywales]

So. I went to dinner and started drinking early. I had to do something to take the edge off, because this thing almost had me on full tilt. I've been jammed in this 2x2 closet and the ceiling for almost a week, running wires, patching holes, etc., etc. To be honest, nearly everything went right. Note to self: those new fang-dangled laser rulers are great when measuring to install a ceiling light, but remember that you measure from the back of the laser unit, not the front, which is exactly 3.5" closer... Directions? We don't need no stinking directions!

Anyhoo, back to our regularly scheduled program. Since I wasn't home, I kept running everything over in my mind and could only think of two issues upstream from the new outlet. Bad ground, or perhaps a bad neutral or hot connection from the existing outlet. I was prepared to fully test the outlet proper ground, etc., but decided to just give the existing outlet a closer inspection. It looked fine, but the original installer had used the pushin in the back of the outlet, instead of the screws. Not a bad thing, but one of the whites and two of the blacks made forward progress when I pressed them into the back of the outlet. Obviously, the little work I had done with that outlet worked them loose. Not loose enough to make either outlet inoperable, but the tester didn't care for it. I turned on the power and everything tests fine. That outlet is at least 15 years old and possibly older. I actually had bought a new one to replace it in the beginning, then used the outlet elsewhere and decided it didn't need replacing. The outlets in this room rarely see use. It's not the outlet's fault, but I'm still tempted to replace it and use the screws.

I used the newer pushin connectors on some of my job this week and for the most part they seem decent. I don't care for using them on the slightly smaller solder wires from dimmer switches, though they seem "ok".

Thanks everyone for chiming in, especially today - I'm especially thankful!

 

[larry4406]

Glad you found the issue.

When I moved into my current home I replaced all of the outlets and used the screws as the original electrician back stabbed all of them. Outlets were changed from beige to white. I also had issues with outlets due to the back stabs.

 

[PassnThru]

So. I went to dinner and started drinking early.

That's usually my plan - step away from the job - drink heavily while thinking about it and formulating a plan.

It usually works. If it doesn't who cares right?

 

[teamextreme]

So a slightly backed-out backstab, which doesn't sound like it actually produced a bad connection, caused the tester to say you had reversed polarity? Sounds like a **** tester, which I suspected when I first read this since you were pretty certain everything was connected properly. Very strange.

 

[joseywales]

So a slightly backed-out backstab, which doesn't sound like it actually produced a bad connection, caused the tester to say you had reversed polarity? Sounds like a **** tester, which I suspected when I first read this since you were pretty certain everything was connected properly. Very strange.

Yeah, I'm scratching my head over it as well. But if it's a **** tester, it is consistent. I mean every other outlet was fine. Also, there was new work in the basement and we found two of the new outlets were ****. Phone chargers, vacuums, whatever we placed in them didn't work. I tested it with this tester, another cheap lead tester, then finally my DMM and they were all testing good less than 25% of the time. Giggle it and you might make contact. Just cheap **** outlets. I replaced the one outlet and 100% good, with all of the testers. I haven't replaced the other one, because I'm hanging lights, TVs, etc., in other rooms and I have more holes than Augusta at this point. No time to swap **** outlets!