Hot tub disconnect distance

[teknikfrog]

I'm putting in a hot tub and there is a pre-existing GFCI panel where a hot tub previously sat. I am going to wire it myself and I'm comfortable doing so.

I'm aware that code dictates the disconnect must be a certain distance from the hot tub. Usually > 5 feet I believe.

This panel is more like 3 feet away.

I don't care about code but I do care about safety. How big of a safety risk am I taking by leaving the panel in its current spot? I'm assuming the rationale for the code is the panel could potentially become energized and a (child probably) could reach from inside the water and touch the panel. How likely is such a situation to actually occur, assuming all wiring is done otherwise properly?

 

[Shiftless]

Safety is important.
How about building a small wall between the hot tub and the disconnect so that it would be impossible to reach from the tub to the switch unless you had flexible arms 5 feet long.

 

[teknikfrog]

Yes my understanding is code would permit that. In my case though a wall would look pretty dumb in this location. I could put a wooden box around it though...

I really just want to try and understand the rationale for the rule because as we all know plenty of electrical codes exist for a variety of situations that may never occur at our specific homes.

 

[Shiftless]

If a guest somehow electrocuted themselves in your hot tub with an electrical panel less than 5 feet from the water, I bet the judge and/or jury would find you liable.

We used to have a hot tub in the back corner of our back yard patio and I had the electrician install the fused disconnect on the house wall about 20 feet away from the tub. One inch EMT running along the bottom of the fence connected everything up properly.

 

[teknikfrog]

If a guest somehow electrocuted themselves in your hot tub with an electrical panel less than 5 feet from the water, I bet the judge and/or jury would find you liable.

I understand that.

What I do not understand is, what are the actual chances of that happening and what specific circumstances could trigger that.

 

[mike93lx]

How likely is such a situation to actually occur, assuming all wiring is done otherwise properly?

What does doing everything else properly have to do with someone touching it from the tub?

Codes almost always exist for safety. Just do it right

 

[teknikfrog]

You know, I could just ask an AI these questions and get an actual answer. "Just do it" without articulating a reason completely negates the point of a discussion forum where we are here to LEARN things. I want to know the WHY.

So anyway, I asked the AI and it was far more helpful, explaining that, among other things, a mouse could chew through a line wire and energize the panel.

So now instead of being browbeaten on the topic I LEARNED SOMETHING NEW and I'll relocate the panel now.

Thanks, not.

 

[Shiftless]

I bet the odds of that happening are extremely low.
Will everyone using that tub be responsible sober adults? Will groups of children especially teenagers be using it unsupervised?

We all take risks everyday. I have 3 steps leading from our driveway up to the path to the front door. Code does not require a handrail and I don’t have one. Could somebody in a frail condition fall on those steps? Of course!

Our house was built in 1950. Is it up to code in every respect? No. Do I have a personal liability insurance rider? Yes.

 

[Shiftless]

Just for another example of AI advice, I asked about the 3 steps up from my driveway. Here is the response.


While not universally required for three steps, installing a handrail is strongly recommended for safety, and may be legally mandated depending on local codes. Many building codes require handrails for stairways with three or more steps, or when the vertical rise exceeds a certain height (often around 30 inches).

 

[hasco]

It may be the same code for a Swimming pool too.

 

[mike93lx]

You know, I could just ask an AI these questions and get an actual answer. "Just do it" without articulating a reason completely negates the point of a discussion forum where we are here to LEARN things. I want to know the WHY.

So anyway, I asked the AI and it was far more helpful, explaining that, among other things, a mouse could chew through a line wire and energize the panel.

So now instead of being browbeaten on the topic I LEARNED SOMETHING NEW and I'll relocate the panel now.

Thanks, not.

Fantastic!

 

[kbuhagiar]

You know, I could just ask an AI these questions and get an actual answer. "Just do it" without articulating a reason completely negates the point of a discussion forum where we are here to LEARN things. I want to know the WHY.

So anyway, I asked the AI and it was far more helpful, explaining that, among other things, a mouse could chew through a line wire and energize the panel.

So now instead of being browbeaten on the topic I LEARNED SOMETHING NEW and I'll relocate the panel now.

Thanks, not.

I understand your motivation, and I'm glad you got the response that you were looking for, but... please do not be so naive as to believe that AI is the ultimate - or even accurate - authority on ANYTHING.

Especially electrical or engineering codes.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I understand that.

What I do not understand is, what are the actual chances of that happening and what specific circumstances could trigger that.

Impossible to answer such a question. Way too many variables and predicting odds is like betting on horse races and sports games…

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So anyway, I asked the AI and it was far more helpful, explaining that, among other things, a mouse could chew through a line wire and energize the panel.

Too bad the AI answer is wrong if the panel is properly bonded it would be impossible for it to become energized because the feeding breaker would trip…

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I understand your motivation, and I'm glad you got the response that you were looking for, but... please do not be so naive as to believe that AI is the ultimate - or even accurate - authority on ANYTHING.

Especially electrical or engineering codes.

Bingo

And the AI answer was wrong…

 

[mike93lx]

Bingo

And the AI answer was wrong…

But he doesn't care about code!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

But he doesn't care about code!

Doesnt care about code or the fundamentals?

 

[mm08822]

I understand that.

What I do not understand is, what are the actual chances of that happening and what specific circumstances could trigger that.

For someone to dream up every scenario where there is an injury risk would be fruitless.
Requiring a minimum distance can eliminate many of them but never all of them.

What's the point of asking for "chances of"?
What if the probability is 8% that a specific situation could occur......what side of that number do you want to be on?

GFCI functionality has been known to fail and it only monitors the downstream circuit, could care less about the conditions of the upstream circuit.

If you really want the answer, go back to NFPA and ask the CMP that authored that change in NEC to splain da data/reasons.

 

[Cruzan80]

IIRC, here it needs to be at least 5ft away, but Flex liquid-tite can't be used for further than 6ft...

Or something else like this that means I have a very narrow window to put the box and still meet min/max length...

 

[teknikfrog]

Doesnt care about code or the fundamentals?

Right. I don't care about code. I do care about safety, and learning the WHY of things.

I understand your motivation, and I'm glad you got the response that you were looking for, but... please do not be so naive as to believe that AI is the ultimate - or even accurate - authority on ANYTHING.

Especially electrical or engineering codes.

Which is why I came here first, looking for information. I agree.

Too bad the AI answer is wrong if the panel is properly bonded it would be impossible for it to become energized because the feeding breaker would trip…

Do you have something to add?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Right. I don't care about code. I do care about safety, and learning the WHY of things.


Which is why I came here first, looking for information. I agree.


Do you have something to add?

I explained the why and no dont need to add anything. did you read the second half of my sentence that you responded to about the panel bond?

 

[teknikfrog]

I explained the why and no dont need to add anything. did you read the second half of my sentence that you responded to about the panel bond?

Your explanation of the rationale behind the NEC rule is that a bonded panel is impossible to become energized?

 

[mm08822]

Right. I don't care about code. I do care about safety, and learning the WHY of things.

The Code Making Panels that address each tri-annual revision of the NEC are many-times using recent historical data regarding fires, electrocutions, failure modes, best practices, lack of best practices, public input to close gaps and provide a better future set of requirements.

So think "The Code" as a living book of the latest minimum best practices for the electrical industry.

 

[mm08822]

Your explanation of the rationale behind the NEC rule is that a bonded panel is impossible to become energized?

Anything can change after the correct installation - due to mechanical damage, weather/oxidation, intentional change. The first two reasons mentioned are many times unrecognized.

 

[teknikfrog]

I went looking for one single case of a human being ever reaching out from a hot tub and touching a GFCI spa panel and being shocked and could not find one. I do not think there has ever been one single recorded case of this occurring ever, anywhere.

 

[PCustoms]

I went looking for one single case of a human being ever reaching out from a hot tub and touching a GFCI spa panel and being shocked and could not find one. I do not think there has ever been one single recorded case of this occurring ever, anywhere.

**** it, screw the disconnect right to the tub.


Why do people come here looking for direction and then argue why they shouldn't follow established practices or code?

 

[teknikfrog]

**** it, screw the disconnect right to the tub.


Why do people come here looking for direction and then argue why they shouldn't follow established practices or code?

For the same reason you can login to an electrician forum and see them discussing the same type of issues.

 

[mike93lx]

I went looking for one single case of a human being ever reaching out from a hot tub and touching a GFCI spa panel and being shocked and could not find one. I do not think there has ever been one single recorded case of this occurring ever, anywhere.

****, that settles it. Any other codes you can summarily dismiss via a little googling?

 

[PCustoms]

For the same reason you can login to an electrician forum and see them discussing the same type of issues.

are any of them advocating having it within reach?

 

[Jim greengo]

I'm putting in a hot tub and there is a pre-existing GFCI panel where a hot tub previously sat. I am going to wire it myself and I'm comfortable doing so.

I'm aware that code dictates the disconnect must be a certain distance from the hot tub. Usually > 5 feet I believe.

This panel is more like 3 feet away.

I don't care about code but I do care about safety. How big of a safety risk am I taking by leaving the panel in its current spot? I'm assuming the rationale for the code is the panel could potentially become energized and a (child probably) could reach from inside the water and touch the panel. How likely is such a situation to actually occur, assuming all wiring is done otherwise properly?

Line of site is normally good enough.
So you can see the disconnect while you're servicing the equipment.

 

[teknikfrog]

****, that settles it. Any other codes you can summarily dismiss via a little googling?

I'm not "dismissing the code". I posted on here to understand more about it. It hasn't gone well.

 

[mike93lx]

I'm not "dismissing the code". I posted on here to understand more about it. It hasn't gone well.

"I don't care about code" and finding justification for it to be unnecessary feels contrary to your statement.

Good luck with the project, I hope no one gets hurt.

 

[teknikfrog]

"I don't care about code" and finding justification for it to be unnecessary feels contrary to your statement.

Good luck with the project, I hope no one gets hurt.

Since you are so big mad about this topic why don't you help educate the class. You obviously know more than me.

So please describe a theoretical scenario in which a hot tub bather would reach out and touch a GFCI subpanel that is too close under code and become electrocuted. Let's try to exercise a little intellectual curiosity here instead of just acting angry and rude.

 

[PCustoms]

So please describe a theoretical scenario in which a hot tub bather would reach out and touch a GFCI subpanel that is too close under code and become electrocuted.

You're soaking in the tub, all of a sudden the bubbles stop....

You reach over to re-set the breaker while completely soaking, standing in a puddle (or worse still in the tub) and BAM, you get electrocuted do to any numerous issues of why a dripping person shouldn't be trying to reset breakers.

 

[teknikfrog]

Are spa panels really built with such a lack of safeguards where that scenario is even plausible?

>>> reminder the scenario we are talking about here never been recorded as happening, ever, globally <<<

 

[PCustoms]

Good luck bud.

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

I'm not "dismissing the code". I posted on here to understand more about it. It hasn't gone well.

Just be a man and just come out and say: "I don’t give a Flying F about anyone, the NEC or any other trade practices and I will do what I want because it's my home and I can do what I want!"

 

[Cruzan80]

**** it, screw the disconnect right to the tub.


Why do people come here looking for direction and then argue why they shouldn't follow established practices or code?

Just to be clear, for my use case, I am moving the hot tub into place, and then mounting the disconnect. I just thought the Min/Max being a 1-2ft window was pretty odd (though it was listed separately, so it may have to do with the type of "conduit/tubing" I am using).

What is the correct "catch-all" term for the stuff going around wiring to protect them? MC/Liquid-tite feels wrong calling it "conduit", but EMT sounds weird as "tubing".

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I went looking for one single case of a human being ever reaching out from a hot tub and touching a GFCI spa panel and being shocked and could not find one. I do not think there has ever been one single recorded case of this occurring ever, anywhere.

youre kidding right? you really think every single case of an incident would be published online? smh

 

[whateg01]

You're soaking in the tub, all of a sudden the bubbles stop....

You reach over to re-set the breaker while completely soaking, standing in a puddle (or worse still in the tub) and BAM, you get electrocuted do to any numerous issues of why a dripping person shouldn't be trying to reset breakers.

And nobody ever drinks in a hot tub so there's never a chance that a drunk person would do that! /s